Jesus isn't God, doesn't claim to be God and doesn't want to be worshipped.

This is an interesting topic and I'm not here to refute anything being said as I agree with most of it. I'm here to provide my own perspective on who Y'shua is.

I believe the only evidence required to understand that Y'shua was divine, is this: John 1:14-18

It clearly states that the Word, whom is now and was before (the co-creator with the Father), was baptized by John. He is clearly the Son of God, or rather, the Son of the Father. It also clearly states that "No man hath seen God at any time". If you look up the translation of "no man" it actually means "no one and nothing". We recall when Moses asked to see the Lords back and he obliged. Clearly the Father has had little to no interaction with his people what-so-ever, except through his Son the Word, who was with the Father from the beginning. As far as I can recall the ONLY thing we hear from the Father, is "This is my Son in whom I'm well pleased". Everything else was done through the Word, whom was/is Y'shua.

To me, this evidence suggests that Y'shua was/is the "God" of the old testament. I use the word "God" loosely because it is a subjective word. I am simply referring to the family name "God", not the personification of the Father whom through, all things are done. It is my belief that Y'shua was here to point us to the Father, since only through Y'shua do we have access to Him.

TL;DR
I believe Y'shua is the "God" of the old testament and we've not heard/seen ANYthing from the Father except for this single quote: "This is my Son in whom I'm well pleased". I also agree that Y'shua did not want to be worshiped, but that He wanted us to use him as a conduit to worship the Father. Obviously there are lots of scriptures and study that I've done to come to this conclusion, but I believe John 1:14-18 is the archetype for my belief, as well as the beginning of Genesis.

a reply to: Aedaeum

Just as a side fact, I pretty much agree with what you said except the co-creator, Jacob WRESTLED with God AND WON. He extorted a blessing from him.

a reply to: Rasalghul

Who is Jesus when pertaining to God other than his son?.....In the beginning was THE WORD....and THE WORD was with God...and THE WORD WAS GOD.....The son is the word of God and the Father is the will....

a reply to: Aedaeum

Philippians 2: 3-6......3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

a reply to: Rasalghul

You better go back and read ALL that you said under ALL your ATS user names and see how you said that the Bible is fiction, it is unreliable, no accurate copies available and so forth.

Your words mean nothing to the lot of us Gnosisisfaith/Rasalghul

a reply to: Rasalghul

WTHeck?

I never said I was a prophet. Show once where I did.

You obviously don't believe the Bible is true or you wouldn't have started this thread. Because the Bible show that Jesus Chrsit is God in the flesh.

so what was that about my remarks being false?

originally posted by: Aedaeum
This is an interesting topic and I'm not here to refute anything being said as I agree with most of it. I'm here to provide my own perspective on who Y'shua is.

I believe the only evidence required to understand that Y'shua was divine, is this: John 1:14-18

It clearly states that the Word, whom is now and was before (the co-creator with the Father), was baptized by John. He is clearly the Son of God, or rather, the Son of the Father. It also clearly states that "No man hath seen God at any time". If you look up the translation of "no man" it actually means "no one and nothing". We recall when Moses asked to see the Lords back and he obliged. Clearly the Father has had little to no interaction with his people what-so-ever, except through his Son the Word, who was with the Father from the beginning. As far as I can recall the ONLY thing we hear from the Father, is "This is my Son in whom I'm well pleased". Everything else was done through the Word, whom was/is Y'shua.

To me, this evidence suggests that Y'shua was/is the "God" of the old testament. I use the word "God" loosely because it is a subjective word. I am simply referring to the family name "God", not the personification of the Father whom through, all things are done. It is my belief that Y'shua was here to point us to the Father, since only through Y'shua do we have access to Him.

TL;DR
I believe Y'shua is the "God" of the old testament and we've not heard/seen ANYthing from the Father except for this single quote: "This is my Son in whom I'm well pleased". I also agree that Y'shua did not want to be worshiped, but that He wanted us to use him as a conduit to worship the Father. Obviously there are lots of scriptures and study that I've done to come to this conclusion, but I believe John 1:14-18 is the archetype for my belief, as well as the beginning of Genesis.

Amen. I believe he is the Light because he told no lies. Everything written about him can be tested by those who choose his path.

originally posted by: auto3000
a reply to: Aedaeum

Philippians 2: 3-6......3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

"God is Light, in him there is no darkness". Jesus said he is the Light of this world. It is also said that WE were created in the image of Light, but we live in the darkness because we believe worldly pleasure is more valuable then Love and Virtue.

Plato - Allegory of the Cave. The pleasure seekers create a world of competition, scarcity, fear and chaos. Then they reward themselves for such worldly endeavors. Those in pursuit of Love and Virtue see with divine eyes and pray only for peace and unity.

We are called to be Like Christ. If I claim to be Like Christ is that blasphemy?

If I am Like Christ do I then become Christ? Obviously not.

If Jesus is created in form equal to his father does he then become his father? Obviously not.

Im still waiting to hear scripture with Jesus saying I am God, worship me. Or anything close, Jesus doesn't want to be worshipped.

One final point, since we are now aware the Greek Isaiah virgin birth prophecy is a mistranslation, christians are slowly shying away from it. So don't hang your hat on the Immanuel thing, because Isaiah was talking about something that would happen in his lifetime to a king in his lifetime.

Acts 10:39 "whom they slew and hanged on a tree"
Acts 5:30 "Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree"
Acts 13:29 "they took him down from the tree"
1 Peter 2:24 "who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree"

Actually in those days Crucifixion as a punishment applied to soldiers. If he did not fight back against the authority after arrest he would have not been acknowledged as a soldier or someone willing to fight back and so therefore he would not have been Crucified.

He would have been hung.

Jesus Christ in Scripture does seem to claim to be God but at the same time he denies this before Pontius Pilate.

What is rather interesting is that Israel was not conquered by the Romans. The Romans conquered another culture and therefore as a result laid claim to Israel.

They learned of the Prophesy of Jesus Christ many years prior to his birth.

Now here then is the issue of Herod and the order to kill all the first born of Israel to stop Jesus Christ from being born.

Every culture within that region of the world had gods that could raise the dead and only one of them was murdered.

So why did that happen?

Another issue is how is it that in the New Testament, Jesus Christ states that in keeping with the prophesies of the Old Testament John the Baptist was in a past life Ezequiel.

Where Jesus Christ in the presence of several Apostles, visits with Moses and Ezequiel in a Garden.

How could Ezequiel be both dead and alive and why does not John the Baptist acknowledge the importance of such an experience in his life?

originally posted by: Isurrender73

originally posted by: auto3000
a reply to: Aedaeum

Philippians 2: 3-6......3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

"God is Light, in him there is no darkness". Jesus said he is the Light of this world. It is also said that WE were created in the image of Light, but we live in the darkness because we believe worldly pleasure is more valuable then Love and Virtue.

Plato - Allegory of the Cave. The pleasure seekers create a world of competition, scarcity, fear and chaos. Then they reward themselves for such worldly endeavors. Those in pursuit of Love and Virtue see with divine eyes and pray only for peace and unity.

We are called to be Like Christ. If I claim to be Like Christ is that blasphemy?

If I am Like Christ do I then become Christ? Obviously not.

If Jesus is created in form equal to his father does he then become his father? Obviously not.

No. Rather it was a torture stake. An upright pole. The idea of a cross being the crucifix was borrowed from pagan origin and not even incorporated into apostate Christianity until long after Jesus was dead, and then not fully accepted until the Roman Emperor Constantine fully integrated apostate Christianity into Roman paganism and it came out as the Catholic Church.

originally posted by: Kashai
Acts 10:39 "whom they slew and hanged on a tree"
Acts 5:30 "Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree"
Acts 13:29 "they took him down from the tree"
1 Peter 2:24 "who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree"

Actually in those days Crucifixion as a punishment applied to soldiers. If he did not fight back against the authority after arrest

he would have not been acknowledged as a soldier or someone willing to fight back and so therefore he would not have been Crucified.

He would have been hung.

Jesus Christ in Scripture does seem to claim to be God but at the same time he denies this before Pontius Pilate.

What is rather interesting is that Israel was not conquered by the Romans. The Romans conquered another culture and therefore as a result laid claim to Israel.

They learned of the Prophesy of Jesus Christ many years prior to his birth.

Now here then is the issue of Herod and the order to kill all the first born of Israel to stop Jesus Christ from being born.

Every culture within that region of the world had gods that could raise the dead and only one of them was murdered.

So why did that happen?

Herod learned of the Messiah, or Christ from the astrologers that Satan's star lead them to him to let him know. The scripture even shows you this:

(Matthew 2:1-4) 2 After Jesus had been born in Bethʹle·hem of Ju·deʹa in the days of Herod the king, look! astrologers from the East came to Jerusalem, 2 saying: “Where is the one born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when we were in the East, and we have come to do obeisance to him.” 3 At hearing this, King Herod was agitated, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 On gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born.

Don't try to play coy like you didn't know this.

Notice that the star lead the Persian astologers to Herod, after Jesus was born. And it was with the intention to have Herod murder Jesus.

The reason Herod murdered all the children of 2 years and under in the region, is because God told them in a vision not to return to Herod:

(Matthew 2:7-12) . . .Then Herod secretly summoned the astrologers and carefully ascertained from them the time of the star’s appearing. 8 When sending them to Bethʹle·hem, he said: “Go make a careful search for the young child, and when you have found him, report back to me so that I too may go and do obeisance to him.” 9 After they had heard the king, they went their way, and look! the star they had seen when they were in the East went ahead of them until it came to a stop above where the young child was. 10 On seeing the star, they rejoiced with great joy. 11 And when they went into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and falling down, they did obeisance to him. They also opened their treasures and presented him with gifts—gold and frankincense and myrrh. 12 However, because they were given divine warning in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed for their country by another way.


The Christmas story you are told that they met Jesus in a manger when he was born is a complete lie and fabrication by Satan. He went to his house where Jesus was a young child of almost two years of age. And Satan, by the star, again led them first to Herod.

Herod did not know of the prophesies concerning Jesus until the arrived to ask about him.

originally posted by: Kashai
Another issue is how is it that in the New Testament, Jesus Christ states that in keeping with the prophesies of the Old Testament John the Baptist was in a past life Ezequiel.

Where Jesus Christ in the presence of several Apostles, visits with Moses and Ezequiel in a Garden.

How could Ezequiel be both dead and alive and why does not John the Baptist acknowledge the importance of such an experience in his life?

I think you mean Elijah, not Ezekiel. In fact that is who you are referring to. Correct me if I'm wrong.

a reply to: JackReyes

Both Elijah and Ezekiel were spared death these actions presented them as the same in relation to not only familiarity, but also as equivalent in every form.

Then they were the same person.

However it makes no real difference how could for the sake of argument could Elijah present as a spirit and still present as a living person, in the form of John the Baptist??

a reply to: JackReyes

That makes no sense whatsoever; the Star of Bethlehem led the three kings to the birthplace of Jesus Christ. Someone who's birth threatened Herod's position as King of Israel as a proxy to Roman rule of the territory known then a Israel.

Implied is that the birth of a Prophet generated a threat to the power structure of the time. Herod was fine with the idea that Israelites were treated as such a low part of the caste system; that a prophet such as Jesus Christ was not possible within the ranks of Israeli culture.

That is happened. Resulted in a similar reaction of the current power of the day, to that of Ramses. Who order the first born of Israel, murdered in response to the potential birth of Moses.

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: JackReyes

That makes no sense whatsoever; the Star of Bethlehem led the three kings to the birthplace of Jesus Christ. Someone who's birth threatened Herod's position as King of Israel as a proxy to Roman rule of the territory known then a Israel.

Implied is that the birth of a Prophet generated a threat to the power structure of the time. Herod was fine with the idea that Israelites were treated as such a low part of the caste system; that a prophet such as Jesus Christ was not possible within the ranks of Israeli culture.

That is happened. Resulted in a similar reaction of the current power of the day, to that of Ramses. Who order the first born of Israel, murdered in response to the potential birth of Moses.

Read the account closer. It was posted for you. It lead them to Jerusalem. And then to Herod heard about it. And after he plotted to murder Jesus, after finding out about him, it lead them to where Jesus' parents lived, not to the stable in Bethlehem. In fact it took about two years to lead them where they were going.

And they were going to return to Herod, where the star lead them, it was only a warning by God's angel that they did not return, and then afterwards, when Herod realized he had been duped, did he murder all the children of two years and younger.

Here I will quote it for you again, after you actually READ what it says, will it make sense:

(Matthew 2:1-18) . . .After Jesus had been born in Bethʹle·hem of Ju·deʹa in the days of Herod the king, look! astrologers from the East came to Jerusalem, 2 saying: “Where is the one born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when we were in the East, and we have come to do obeisance to him.” 3 At hearing this, King Herod was agitated, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 On gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. 5 They said to him: “In Bethʹle·hem of Ju·deʹa, for this is how it has been written through the prophet: 6 ‘And you, O Bethʹle·hem of the land of Judah, are by no means the most insignificant city among the governors of Judah, for out of you will come a governing one, who will shepherd my people Israel.’” 7 Then Herod secretly summoned the astrologers and carefully ascertained from them the time of the star’s appearing. 8 When sending them to Bethʹle·hem, he said: “Go make a careful search for the young child, and when you have found him, report back to me so that I too may go and do obeisance to him.” 9 After they had heard the king, they went their way, and look! the star they had seen when they were in the East went ahead of them until it came to a stop above where the young child was. 10 On seeing the star, they rejoiced with great joy. 11 And when they went into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and falling down, they did obeisance to him. They also opened their treasures and presented him with gifts—gold and frankincense and myrrh. 12 However, because they were given divine warning in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed for their country by another way. 13 After they had departed, look! Jehovah’s angel appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying: “Get up, take the young child and his mother and flee to Egypt, and stay there until I give you word, for Herod is about to search for the young child to kill him.” 14 So Joseph got up and by night took along the young child and the child’s mother and went into Egypt. 15 He stayed there until the death of Herod. This fulfilled what was spoken by Jehovah through his prophet, saying: “Out of Egypt I called my son.” 16 Then Herod, seeing that he had been outwitted by the astrologers, flew into a great rage, and he sent out and had all the boys in Bethʹle·hem and in all its districts killed, from two years of age and under, according to the time that he had carefully ascertained from the astrologers. 17 Then was fulfilled what was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet, who said: 18 “A voice was heard in Raʹmah, weeping and much wailing. It was Rachel weeping for her children, and she was unwilling to take comfort, because they are no more.”

a reply to: LittleByLittle

As in they are of LIKE MINDEDNESS!! They're "one in the same" because they THINK alike. Does it have to be dumbed down any further? Why is that apparently such a hard concept to comprehend?

a reply to: JackReyes

Its called the Roman Catholic Church where in Emphasis at present is the King James Version is proclaimed the "Word of God". This is despite the fact that England separated religiously from the Vatican many, many years ago.

To an extent that the current Queen of England made clear recently the hostility she would be in, if one of her children would marry a Catholic.

351 Old Testament Prophecies....

Herod Antipater, the father of Herod the Great, is not mentioned in the New Testament, but ten of his descendants played major roles in the lives of Jesus and of the apostles.

The Herod family were Idumeans. That is, they were descended from Abraham through Isaac and Esau, rather than through Isaac and Jacob. They saw themselves as Jewish, participating in God's covenant with Abraham, but their ancestors had not gone to Egypt with Joseph or returned with Moses and Joshua.

Source

How is it that a person came to power in Israel that was that was no related to Joseph or returned with Moses and Joshua?