Jesus isn't God, doesn't claim to be God and doesn't want to be worshipped.

a reply to: Klassified

Two spirits connected as one do not mean they are not separate beings with different attributes.

Ever heard of empaths who have a hard time knowing sometimes if it is their emotions they feel or their loved one since they are so connected to each other? The oneness?

a reply to: Rasalghul

Jesus said that "I and the father are One" Meaning that Jesus was "GOD" in the form of the flesh or a vessel used to spread the message and be the example.

a reply to: Rasalghul
The reference to Immanuel(God with us) was a play on name meanings on my part. My mistake assuming you would understand that.

No angels have ever been assigned divine attributes reserved for god alone. Attributes such as forgiving sins, granting eternal life, claiming equality and oneness with god, and so on. These and more are ascribed to Christ from his own mouth. The problem with reading the bible from a secular perspective, rather than the perspective it was written from, is that many statements made by Jesus do not have the impact on us they would have had on the Jews of the day, because we are looking at it from a perspective of ignorance, rather than an understanding of law, tradition, and the spirituality of the day. Also, Jesus spoke of and from his humanity more than he ever did his divinity. Which can be confusing to some.
From my perspective, reading through the 4 gospels, Jesus very much asserted and talked about his divinity and authority on several occasions. But that's just my opinion, and you are certainly welcome to yours.

originally posted by: Rasalghul
· Let me show you where I'm coming from with some scripture.

He doesn't want your worship:

Matthew 4:10 Jesus says to the Satan, quoting scripture when asked to bow down and worship the Satan,(imagine the Satan asking God to worship him!) "Worship the Lord your God, and serve only him."

I've cut the rest out, because... well, frankly, it's not even worth the argument... but this?
You've got it completely backward.

Jesus isn't saying "don't worship me", He's quoting Scripture to justify why He won't worship Satan - because God alone is worthy of worship.

That verse isn't at all useful for your argument (that Jesus doesn't want worship). In fact, Jesus willingly received worship on multiple occasions. Even when the Apostle Thomas declared "My Lord and my God!" and knelt before Him, you don't see Jesus saying "whoa, whoa. Wait up, Thomas. Don't worship me, that's really uncool." He accepted that worship - and so He should.

"Before Abraham was, I AM" isn't a claim to preexistence - it's a claim to Godhood. It's taking the Title of God the Father for Himself. You can see this repeatedly in Scripture in the way that the Pharisees reacted to Jesus. They knew exactly what He was claiming. When Jesus said "The Father and I are One", they recognized that Jesus was claiming equality with God the Father, and wanted to stone Him. When Jesus forgave sin, they recognized that only God could forgive sin (because only God can ultimately be sinned against - think of David & Bathsheba - "against you, and you only, have I sinned" in Psalm 51). Jesus even said "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father". Why? Because "He is the image of the invisible God".

If I were to show you a picture of Queen Elizabeth on the Australian $5 note (which I can. I'm seriously rich, I have like... $8 in my wallet right now), and asked you who it was, you wouldn't say "oh, that's an image of Queen Elizabeth". You'd say "that's Queen Elizabeth".

So it is with Jesus.

Well, apparently I got carried away and answered the first part of your OP anyway. There you have it. ...there's much more, of course, and I'd greatly encourage you to study the first chapter of Revelation, and the numerous instances of the "Angel of the Lord" throughout the Old Testament - including the repeated realization from those who saw Him that "they had seen God" (read the instance with Samson's parents). You could even go with "through Jesus Christ, all things were made; without Him, nothing has been made that was made." This precludes Jesus Himself; He is not a created being - because "without Him, nothing was made that has been made". There's no logical sidebar to that, no way around it; Jesus Christ created all things. Anyway. Now I'm rambling. It's all there in Scripture. Follow the thread.

a reply to: Klassified

Show me where in the bible you think Jesus says he's God and I'll show you how he isn't.

originally posted by: Awen24

originally posted by: Rasalghul
· Let me show you where I'm coming from with some scripture.

He doesn't want your worship:

Matthew 4:10 Jesus says to the Satan, quoting scripture when asked to bow down and worship the Satan,(imagine the Satan asking God to worship him!) "Worship the Lord your God, and serve only him."

I've cut the rest out, because... well, frankly, it's not even worth the argument... but this?
You've got it completely backward.

Jesus isn't saying "don't worship me", He's quoting Scripture to justify why He won't worship Satan - because God alone is worthy of worship.

That verse isn't at all useful for your argument (that Jesus doesn't want worship). In fact, Jesus willingly received worship on multiple occasions. Even when the Apostle Thomas declared "My Lord and my God!" and knelt before Him, you don't see Jesus saying "whoa, whoa. Wait up, Thomas. Don't worship me, that's really uncool." He accepted that worship - and so He should.

"Before Abraham was, I AM" isn't a claim to preexistence - it's a claim to Godhood. It's taking the Title of God the Father for Himself. You can see this repeatedly in Scripture in the way that the Pharisees reacted to Jesus. They knew exactly what He was claiming. When Jesus said "The Father and I are One", they recognized that Jesus was claiming equality with God the Father, and wanted to stone Him. When Jesus forgave sin, they recognized that only God could forgive sin (because only God can ultimately be sinned against - think of David & Bathsheba - "against you, and you only, have I sinned" in Psalm 51). Jesus even said "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father". Why? Because "He is the image of the invisible God".

If I were to show you a picture of Queen Elizabeth on the Australian $5 note (which I can. I'm seriously rich, I have like... $8 in my wallet right now), and asked you who it was, you wouldn't say "oh, that's an image of Queen Elizabeth". You'd say "that's Queen Elizabeth".

So it is with Jesus.

Well, apparently I got carried away and answered the first part of your OP anyway. There you have it. ...there's much more, of course, and I'd greatly encourage you to study the first chapter of Revelation, and the numerous instances of the "Angel of the Lord" throughout the Old Testament - including the repeated realization from those who saw Him that "they had seen God" (read the instance with Samson's parents). You could even go with "through Jesus Christ, all things were made; without Him, nothing has been made that was made." This precludes Jesus Himself; He is not a created being - because "without Him, nothing was made that has been made". There's no logical sidebar to that, no way around it; Jesus Christ created all things. Anyway. Now I'm rambling. It's all there in Scripture. Follow the thread.

That's all YOUR words. Where does the bible say Jesus wants your worship, or have him saying something along the lines of " I am God ?"

originally posted by: JDmOKI
a reply to: Rasalghul

Jesus said that "I and the father are One" Meaning that Jesus was "GOD" in the form of the flesh or a vessel used to spread the message and be the example.

Big deal he used a metaphor to describe his JOB. He acts at the behest of God. But he isn't God.

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: Rasalghul
The reference to Immanuel(God with us) was a play on name meanings on my part. My mistake assuming you would understand that.

No angels have ever been assigned divine attributes reserved for god alone. Attributes such as forgiving sins, granting eternal life, claiming equality and oneness with god, and so on. These and more are ascribed to Christ from his own mouth. The problem with reading the bible from a secular perspective, rather than the perspective it was written from, is that many statements made by Jesus do not have the impact on us they would have had on the Jews of the day, because we are looking at it from a perspective of ignorance, rather than an understanding of law, tradition, and the spirituality of the day. Also, Jesus spoke of and from his humanity more than he ever did his divinity. Which can be confusing to some.
From my perspective, reading through the 4 gospels, Jesus very much asserted and talked about his divinity and authority on several occasions. But that's just my opinion, and you are certainly welcome to yours.

Notice in the beginning of this comment he throws in the standard frustrated christian insult. God with us is the meaning of Immanuel. That in no way makes him the literal one God just someone special sent by him.

a reply to: Rasalghul

Thank you! I still can't wrap my mind around those who refer to Jesus as being "God" Where or how would they even come up with such an idea? Jesus was the SON of GOD as stated quite clearly in the Bible. How does anyone get that wrong? My sons are OF their father, but most assuredly are NOT him...right?!

a reply to: Rubicon3

Absolutely. And your welcome, it's an honor, really.

From my point of view:

Yeshua did not die for any ones sins but in fact taught karma and how to clean up karma. The one who invented idolizing Jesus name to get a free pass was Paul and free pass have always been more popular it seems than works and picking up the cross like Yeshua did.

Sheep and goats seem to be the perfect parable to prove that Yeshua sees people who call him lord but do not do the works and restore the damage they have caused as hypocrites (goats).

originally posted by: Rasalghul

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: Rasalghul
The reference to Immanuel(God with us) was a play on name meanings on my part. My mistake assuming you would understand that.

No angels have ever been assigned divine attributes reserved for god alone. Attributes such as forgiving sins, granting eternal life, claiming equality and oneness with god, and so on. These and more are ascribed to Christ from his own mouth. The problem with reading the bible from a secular perspective, rather than the perspective it was written from, is that many statements made by Jesus do not have the impact on us they would have had on the Jews of the day, because we are looking at it from a perspective of ignorance, rather than an understanding of law, tradition, and the spirituality of the day. Also, Jesus spoke of and from his humanity more than he ever did his divinity. Which can be confusing to some.
From my perspective, reading through the 4 gospels, Jesus very much asserted and talked about his divinity and authority on several occasions. But that's just my opinion, and you are certainly welcome to yours.

Notice in the beginning of this comment he throws in the standard frustrated christian insult. God with us is the meaning of Immanuel. That in no way makes him the literal one God just someone special sent by him.

Lol. Christian insult? That's a good one. There are a number of Christians on ATS who might take exception to me being thought of as one of them. I was being sincere, and you decided to be offended.

I'm no Christian. I was just offering my opinion, as you did yours in the OP. You've made up your mind, and nothing anyone says is gonna change that. No problem. I have no dog in this race. We agree to disagree then.

a reply to: Klassified

a reply to: Rasalghul

Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

He is God.

John one Jesus is the word manifested in the flesh John1:3, 14 and the Word is one John 5:7 there are three that bear witness in heaven, the father, the word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one (these three are are one is a trinity).

Jesus did not forbid anyone from worshiping him.

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

Thomas worshiped him as God and called him his God.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Rasalghul

Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

He is God.

John one Jesus is the word manifested in the flesh John1:3, 14 and the Word is one John 5:7 there are three that bear witness in heaven, the father, the word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one (these three are are one is a trinity).

Jesus makes it more than clear that all his power COMES FROM GOD. I'll provide scripture #'s if you never read it before.

God knows the time of the second coming, Jesus doesn't.

Jesus admits to being inferior to God.

So if you have a trinity with Gods outranking each other you are a polytheist and not a monotheist.

The Holy Spirit is the unblasphemable member of your trinity. The only one. Technically making the Holy Spirit outrank God.

Polytheism to the core. No surprise, the Catholic church has been pagan since day 1.

Again, if any of these subjects are too complex or you need referene #'s I am dying to oblige.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Jesus did not forbid anyone from worshiping him.

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

Thomas worshiped him as God and called him his God.

Only problem is Thomas isn't worshipping him in the scripture you provided.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Jesus did not forbid anyone from worshiping him.

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

Thomas worshiped him as God and called him his God.

: Not worshipping him here. I'd like to see that verse not out of context. What book and # is it?

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Jesus did not forbid anyone from worshiping him.

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

Thomas worshiped him as God and called him his God.

This wouldn't happen to be doubting Thomas would it?

To be begotten means to be created. And Jesus definitely was God's only-begotten, that is, the only created, son of God. Jehovah God is not a begotten creature, as he was never created. His Son, whom he begot, as the first of all creation, was created.

Colossians explains it very plainly this way:

(Colossians 1:15) . . .He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

So he was indeed the first creation by God. He is the only-begotten, in the fact that all other creation was done through him. Thus God only directly created the son, then thru the son he created everything else:

(Colossians 1:16) . . .because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.


Also the scripture that was quoted stating that Jesus and his Father were one, was not referring to their being one person, rather their being in unity.

In fact Jesus after stating that he and his Father were one, then prayed to his Father Jehovah to make his followers one with him as he was with his Father. Obviously he was not referring to them becoming one with God in the sense of being God himself:

(John 17:21) so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me.

So that oneness was the unity the son of God had with his Father, and in no way indicated his being his Father.



Now there are three main points that cannot be disputed I use with people who claim Jesus is God, if they cannot reason with them, I leave them alone as they are unreasoning. And they are the following:

1. Jehovah God cannot be tempted with anything. If you disagree with this, then what can you tempt God with? Anyway Scripture states such:

(James 1:13) When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone.

God cannot be tempted with evil.

Now we all know that the Devil lead Jesus Christ into the wilderness to be tempted. And he was tempted three times. One of these temptations was for Jesus to do an act of worship to Satan, and he would give him all of the kingdoms of the earth.

How can Jesus be tempted with something that is his? If he was God, then the temptation was not a temptation at all, but a lie. Yet he was tempted, the scripture tells us quite clearly.

Now if Jesus was tempted with evil, to do an act of worship to Satan and then become ruler of the world, and Jehovah God cannot be tempted ever, and He, that is God, can give the power of the world to whom he chooses, how could Jesus be God?

2. God cannot learn obedience. Everything must become subject to the Father of all, but God himself subjects himself to no one, nor does he learn anything from anyone.

Jesus Christ, on the other hand, learned obedience while on earth, from the things he suffered:

(Hebrews 5:8) . . .Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered.

In fact Jesus was not wanting to die the death he was going to, as a criminal, disparaging his Father's name, and he said as much to Jehovah in prayer before he died. He asked for Jehovah to make it another way, but then said he was willing to be obedient, and let God's will be done, he was willing to subject himself to his Father's will, and learned obedience from the things he suffered:

(Matthew 26:39) . . .And going a little way forward, he fell facedown, praying: “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.”


3. Jehovah God cannot die. Scripture is quite plain on this matter:

(Habakkuk 1:12) . . .Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die.. . .

Now the whole Christian faith is based on the fact and reality that Jesus died for our sins:

(1 Corinthians 15:3, 4) . . .For among the first things I handed on to you was what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; 4 and that he was buried. . .

If you claim that Jesus is God you have to admit that he never died. Thus the entirety of your Christian faith is made null and void, and of no use.

Yet we are assured that he did in fact die. And his Father in heaven shook the earth at the time of his passing, and made the sky grow dark, and there was an earthquake and the people trembled, and even the Roman solider at his feet said that this indeed must have been the son of God.


Another point I guess should be added:

4. No one has EVER seen God at any time. Now John said this, after Jesus had died and returned to heaven. John was an apostle of Jesus and saw Jesus and was with him on many occasions. And after Jesus was raised back to heavenly spirit life, John said this about God:

(John 1:18) . . .No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.

No man has ever ever seen God. And the only-begotten (that is the created first-born son of God - Jesus) is the one who explained Jehovah to us.

In fact when Moses asked to see Jehovah Jehovah told him quite plainly that it was impossible for any man to see His face and continue living:

(Exodus 33:20) . . .But he added: “You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”

If Jesus was God, then God is a liar. For God said that no man could see his face and live. And yet many people saw Jesus. And John himself, who saw Jesus said that no one had ever seen God.

Jesus said that Jehovah was his God. If he was God why would he worship himself and call himself his own Go?

(John 20:17) . . .But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”


In fact, why would Jesus need to pray? Would he not be just talking to himself, if he was God?

Imagine when Jesus was baptized, the holy spirit descended like a dove from heaven and entered into him, anointing him as the Christ, and Jehovah God spoke from the heaven saying that Jesus was the approved son of God:

(Matthew 3:16, 17) . . .the heavens were opened up, and he saw God’s spirit descending like a dove and coming upon him. 17 Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”

So where was God at that time? Was he in Jesus (although no man could see God and live) or was he God's holy spirit descending upon Jesus, or was he in heaven pretending to be on earth, yet declaring that Jesus was his son, while Jesus was in fact himself?

The notion that Jesus is God is quite ridiculous and never taught in the Bible.

Jesus quite literally said that Jehovah God was greater than himself. Now if Jesus was God, how could anyone be greater than him? How could he be greater than himself?

(John 14:28) . . .you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.


Here is something else. Jesus was GIVEN the name above all names.

If Jesus was Jehovah, how could he be given the name above all others? And who would have the power and authority to do so?: