Ancient conspiracy: Tower of Babel

a reply to: queenofswords

If you had access to all the power in the world to be able to do anything possible, but you had not yet been perfected

Thats sounds suspiciously reminiscent of Jehovah...the pretender

a reply to: noonebutmeYet you came here knowing that was the topic? I wonder why? Truthfully, for a laugh, or what? That's perfectly fine if you did, I do the same thing with junk science threads. It's really not about believing it happened, it's about taking a very short section of scripture and finding the meaning, guessing what the author was trying to convey. It's what people who study the bible do.

To "reach" the Divine, you have to be a "stone mason", not a brick mason.

a reply to: areyousirius360

it is we who suffer. And are still

Well if you look at it from the perspective that these so called "agnostic" governments use a pretext of WMDs to look for Stargates in Iraq and use our taxpayers dollars and kill innocents I would agree that the whole world suffers.

One way of looking at it is that they are trying to bring back the old gods or even hoping to appease the "controllers". All this symbology is in your face.

Maybe Nemesis is returning (would explain wild climate fluctuations). Hence they build bunkers for the Elite ( $trillions missing, hoarding of seeds)

Who knows?

www.space.com...

Nemesis Star Theory: The Sun's 'Death Star' Companion -

Nemesis is a theoretical dwarf star thought to be a companion to our sun. The theory was postulated to explain a perceived cycle of mass extinctions in Earth's history. Scientists speculated that such a star could affect the orbit of objects in the far outer solar system, sending them on a collision course with Earth.

Recent astronomical surveys, however, failed to find any evidence that such a star exists.

The argument for Nemesis

In the early 1980s, scientists noticed that extinctions on Earth seemed to fall in a cyclical pattern. Mass extinctions seem to occur more frequently every 27 million years. The long span of time caused them to turn to astronomical events for an explanation.

In 1984, Richard Muller of the University of California Berkley suggested that a red dwarf star 1.5 light-years away could be the cause of the mass extinctions. Later theories have suggested that Nemesis could be a brown or white dwarf, or a low-mass star only a few times as massive as Jupiter. All would cast dim light, making them difficult to spot
- See more at: www.space.com...

a reply to: areyousirius360

Any particular reason you're addressing that to me? I didnt belittle Gnosticism.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight
You didn't say sounds like a Gnostic fantasy? If not I made a mistake sorry Ill look into it.

a reply to: queenofswords

To "reach" the Divine, you have to have to be a "stone mason", not a brick mason.

and whisper words of power
mor-bon-zi or tu-bal-cain or jah-bul-on

a reply to: RaggedymanATTENTION I sent a message to Konstruct of light re: your "Gnostic fantasy" comment. Please have a look, apologies to KOL.

originally posted by: queenofswords
To "reach" the Divine, you have to have to be a "stone mason", not a brick mason.

That was Solomons temple. I forgot the name but there is a super cool book about the history of freemasons and how the head architect of the temple was more or less founder of them...

Sorry for the off topic

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLightI fixed that my mistake.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: Punisher75

Mankind is a prideful crowd.

I mean what threat exactly could a bunch of humans have really been to an Omnipotent omnipresent God?

2 points firstly man was made in gods image...so pride would be...pfft...what of it?

Secondly you have to ask yourself whether or not its metaphorical or literal, the attempt to reach heaven, the very act of such a project, would in the eyes of the builders have some chance of success. If it was known that "god came down in a spaceship" then the story makes sense. On the other hand if its metaphorical why even attempt a physical undertaking?

Perhaps your understanding of what it means to be made in Gods image is mistaken?
When I read the passage in Genesis that mentions being made in Gods Image I see something that immediately that declared intention, and that is a set of objectives. Lets read;

Genesis 1:26

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

What we see here is a definition of what is meant by Gods image. That definition of Gods image is not a set of attributes but rather a Job description. Mans Job as the Image of God was to be ambassadors of a spiritual God on the Physical world. How do we know this from the text?
Note the Colon after the word "Likeness"? There is your clue.

Here is the Passage rendered in the NIV

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,a and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

You will note the phrase "So that they may rule..." What does this tell us? it tells us that they could not rule unless something happened first, that thing was being made in Gods image.

And A link to the interlinear so that you can see it in Hebrew.
biblehub.com...


So far as your second question goes, I think that the issue might be difficult to parse because it involves several levels but I will do my best.

First lets read the passage carefully.

Genesis 11:4
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

1st We see them making two things, a City and a Tower.
We know they want to top of tower to "reach unto heaven"

2nd We know they have a goal in doing these two things. We know the goal is to make a name for themselves.
Question: Why do they want to make a name for themselves? (Here we see the desire for recognition and pride)
Answer: So that they will not be scattered.
(Here we see they are worried about being scattered. This demands a question be asked.)
Question: Why would they think that they would be scattered if they did not build a tower?
Answer: In Genesis 9:1 God tells Noah and his Sons to do something;

And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

But that is not all that happens in Chapter 9 we see in verse 19;

19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.

What does that tell us? It tells Noah and his sons obeyed Gods commandment.

So we move on to Chapter 10 and what do we find? We find a really long genealogy of Noah's family after they went to repopulate whole earth.
well that's what we see, right up till the last verse.

Genesis 10:32
These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.

Here we see that there are Nations, and those nations are all over the place.

Now we get to the tower of Babel Narrative.
What do we see when we get there? We see that apparently all the nations of the earth decided to give up on being separate like they once were, and instead decided to build a new city with a giant tower.
A few questions and hypothetical, but I think reasonable answers.

Question: To whom are they trying to impress with the name they are going to make for themselves? I mean,if they are all in the City who is there to impress?

Answer: I would venture to say it was God they were trying to impress.

Question: Who was it that they thought would scatter them if they did not make a name for themselves?

Answer: Again I would venture to say it was God they were trying to Impress.

Which Brings us to the Tower itself.
What was the point of the tower and the meaning of the phrase, building a tower that reaches the heavens?

Without giving a pat Sunday School answer, I would say this.
No the folks building the tower did not in fact try to build a tower that would literally get to God.

By the phrase, "reach unto the heavens", I think what was meant was nothing more than a vain plan to build a structure so grand that would get Gods attention.
Hence the whole "Making a name for themselves", line.
However they knew that God did not want them all to be in the same place, and so they sought to impress him. However they still had the fear that without proving to God how great they were, (via a really magnificent piece of architecture) that he would just scatter them all.

This again raises yet another question.
Question: Why would they all want to be together to begin with and what does the tower have to do with it?

Answer: So that God would meet them on top of the tower, so that they could see him, and likely ask him for favors.

Why do I answer that way?
They by all accounts built a really tall structure, a "High Place" so to speak.

These "High Places" mean something in the ancient world. They are places of Worship were one would go to make offerings to their God/gods and would expect something in return. A good crop yield, rain, victory in war etc.

Needless to say this is a bit insulting to YHWH.

Why?
Because as we see in Exodus God tells Moses;

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

Question: What does this have to do with the tower you might be asking?

Answer: Now we know that while Ancient man did not have a vast understanding of science, he was not dumb.
I would say that Ancient man was in fact smart enough to know that something that he carved or made himself was not in fact whatever deity he worshiped, after all he made it right?
The idol served the purpose to act as a "focus" the deity that they worshiped, in short it would hold in a sense contain the deities essence.

YHWH was angry because YHWH is of the mind that Man does not get to dictate how he comes to YHWH.
No YHWH dictates to man how he is to come to YHWH.

You might note that no place in the Scripture does man get to do this to YHWH.

Some might claim that the Arc of the Covenant served that purpose, however it is worth noting that YHWH is the one who commanded the Arc of the Covenant be made.


A long post I know but hopefully it helps.

a reply to: Punisher75Impress or Make a name for ourselves as the texts say, means establish ourselves as a powerful force in the world, and let God know it. They were at this time deathly afraid of YHWH, and it was a matter of global importance to make sure he doesn't destroy them. They took it even further and planned, and apparently had the potential, to invade YHWH's domain. He prevented it, but he had to act to prevent it.

originally posted by: areyousirius360
a reply to: Punisher75Impress or Make a name for ourselves as the texts say, means establish ourselves as a powerful force in the world, and let God know it. They were at this time deathly afraid of YHWH, and it was a matter of global importance to make sure he doesn't destroy them. They took it even further and planned, and apparently had the potential, to invade YHWH's domain. He prevented it, but he had to act to prevent it.

I agree with the following things you said.
Yes they wanted to impress
Yes they were worried, after all they did not want him to be angry.

I see no reason to think that they were afraid he would destroy them when their stated fear was that he would scatter them, just as he did.
I see no evidence to suggest that God was at all concerned that their potential to do anything to him at all.
I see evidence that God held their attempts at "caging" him as appallingly arrogant. When I read,

Genesis 11:6
And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

I am reading this in a pretty sarcastic tone.
Why?
Because God does not live in the clouds. It does not matter how tall they build the tower they will never reach Gods throne room.

I see this whole narrative as nothing less than a type of friendly foreshadowing of what we later see take place in the Revelation of John.

a reply to: Punisher75I didn't say impress you did, I used the texts words which I don't equate with impress, more like fear, the way the Romans or Egyptians or any nation would, just a little different because they are dealing with God. Scatter, destroy, inflict harm they were afraid of his wrath and United in an attempt to protect themselves from YHWH and his madness.

originally posted by: areyousirius360
a reply to: Punisher75I didn't say impress you did, I used the texts words which I don't equate with impress, more like fear, the way the Romans or Egyptians or any nation would, just a little different because they are dealing with God. Scatter, destroy, inflict harm they were afraid of his wrath and United in an attempt to protect themselves from YHWH and his madness.

Impress or Make a name for ourselves as the texts say, means establish ourselves as a powerful force in the world, and let God know it

So you think that when the Bible says "Make a name for ourselves" what it means is Lets make ourselves "seem dangerous"?

So I understand your position.
In your opinion you think they were afraid of God, so their plan as you reckon it, was to work on a presumably multi-year project to build both a tower and a city, all the while assuming he would not notice their construction project that was pointed at his throne room.
The Goal of these construction projects would be to to scare God, the Creator of the Universe into not destroying them because they can use asphalt and stone to build a really tall Ziggurat?

I am not trying to be insulting but I don't buy it.

a reply to: Punisher75That's putting words in my mouth. When it says make a name for ourselves, they are not talking about impressing God, like one person tries to impress another. Let me put it better so you can grasp it.
They wanted to be strong enough to resist YHWH's wrath, in this case scattering them abroad. They were afraid, and they were united. YHWH realized the threat to him of a united world, suggesting that we have the power to oppose him IF we are united. The scattering of the people is obviously an ancient explanation for the people who live all over and the creation of individual nations.
The confusing of tongues to explain the different languages.

But the tower itself is a metaphor for SOMETHING that threatened YHWH. Metaphor for exactly what is what I can't figure out. I don't think it was a space ship or anything but a collection of secret knowledge unusable if you confuse everybody's language.

a reply to: Punisher75Also if you don't know, YHWH is not the creator of the universe. Ancient Canaan which included the Israelites was what we call today Henotheist. Meaning that they worship one God but believe in the existence of others. Every tribe or nation had there own God but at the top was El Elyon or what English translations have a the Most High. El Elyon is the creator and his name means God Most High and Abraham met him.
YHWH eventually became the God of the Jews and only the Jews, when is difficult to assess.
But after the Persians freed them from Babylonian captivity they learned about their religion (which possibly has Abrahamic origins as well) today called Zoroastrianism and learned about Monotheism and duality and when they taught the Greeks Judaism,YHWH and El Elyon were merged and now taught to be one and the same. But this is just not the way it was before, YHWH was originally El Elyon's son. One of the Sons of God. Interesting what you can find out when you try huh?

areyousirius360

But the tower itself is a metaphor for SOMETHING that threatened YHWH. Metaphor for exactly what is what I can't figure out. I don't think it was a space ship or anything but a collection of secret knowledge unusable if you confuse everybody's language.

I guess we are just gonna have to agree to disagree, on this one.
I can follow you so far as it possibly being metaphor, however I don't think the metaphor as you propose it, could in any real way be supported by the text.

areyousirius360

Also if you don't know, YHWH is not the creator of the universe. Ancient Canaan which included the Israelites was what we call today Henotheist. Meaning that they worship one God but believe in the existence of others. Every tribe or nation had there own God but at the top was El Elyon or what English translations have a the Most High. El Elyon is the creator and his name means God Most High and Abraham met him.
YHWH eventually became the God of the Jews and only the Jews, when is difficult to assess.
But after the Persians freed them from Babylonian captivity they learned about their religion (which possibly has Abrahamic origins as well) today called Zoroastrianism and learned about Monotheism and duality and when they taught the Greeks Judaism,YHWH and El Elyon were merged and now taught to be one and the same. But this is just not the way it was before, YHWH was originally El Elyon's son. One of the Sons of God. Interesting what you can find out when you try huh?

Actually I am pretty aware of the topic as a Trinitarian.
Henothiesm tends to come up quite a bit, when learning about the pre-second temple Judaism of the Old Testament.
In so far as the "Names of God" thing it really is a non issue. If you have not had the opportunity I would suggest Heiser.

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