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Turkey shot down Russian Jet: reportedly by two F16's
page: 112share:
originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
originally posted by: 23432
originally posted by: Codeinum
Turkey...? This is unpredictable, irrational country with pretty agressive people that will not support anything against muslims. And when US invite Turkey in coalition against ISIS we here know from the start that this will not work out. Give them a choice between the most humane, free, wealthy, but chrstian country and irrational, psychopath, mass murderer, henocide muslim country and they will choose latest.
ha ha ha
Most humane , free , wealthy but Christian country = Russia
You are a young man , aren't you ?
I think you misunderstood his point. He was not talking about Russia. He was saying if two countries were at odds, one being a peaceful Christian country, the other a violent extremist Muslim country, Turkey would back the Muslim country every time.
I believe he was saying Turkey will always back Islam over all others, no matter what.
I think I understood him correctly bu if not , my apologies .
Turks backing the bad muslim country ALL the time is a bit of a stretch imho . Currently Syria & Iran are not backed by Turks and they are both muslim countries .
Turks want their muslim Community of 1.5 billion to form a global union , just like the Christian Club of Europe .
Looks like Russia also violated Israeli airspace as well.
Russia plane entered Israel control zone from Syria: minister
The hotline was used and the Russian plane withdrew.
Israel did down a syrian aircraft in Sept 2014 that violated its airspace.
Russian pilots need to take maps with them.
Russia plane entered Israel control zone from Syria: minister
The hotline was used and the Russian plane withdrew.
Israel did down a syrian aircraft in Sept 2014 that violated its airspace.
Russian pilots need to take maps with them.
edit on 29-11-2015 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: Xcathdra
Russian pilots need to take maps with them.
No, they need to load their planes with nukes.
The Golan Heights is not Israel ... and since Israel's annexation of this territory is not acknowledged by UN, there is no need for Russia to comply to this ... none, what so ever.
And Turkey is "supposed" to be against ISIS ... and "supposed" to have no personal gain in the conflict ... that is, is not actively in war in Syria. Thus, Russia has the right to cross the border in a buffer zone that applies in all wars ... unless Turkey sees Russia as an enemy combatant. Which brings an entirely different scenario to the middle east.
So, seriously ... Russia should take the gloves off.
edit on 29/11/2015 by bjarneorn because: (no reason given)
a reply to: bjarneorn
Why? Fallout crosses borders and radiation does not discriminate based on nationality. Second Russia, along with who they attack, would be reduced to ash.
Only a moron cant see where use of nukes will lead.
Maps would be more prudent. If Russian pilots dont know where they are then giving them nukes would most likely result in nuking the wrong country.
Why? Fallout crosses borders and radiation does not discriminate based on nationality. Second Russia, along with who they attack, would be reduced to ash.
Only a moron cant see where use of nukes will lead.
Maps would be more prudent. If Russian pilots dont know where they are then giving them nukes would most likely result in nuking the wrong country.
edit on 29-11-2015 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)
a reply to: 23432
Here is the problem: Turks are Sunni Muslims, but they are not Arabs. The Saudi Arabia and the Emirates are Sunni Muslims, but they Are Arabs. Iran are Shi'a Muslims, but they are not Arabs. Kurds are mostly Sunni Muslims, but they are not Arabs. Iraq is mostly Shi'a, and they are Arabs. Syria is mostly Sunni, and they are mostly Arabs. Right?
After the Ottoman Empire collapsed, there were assorted coups resulting in minority sects ruling over the majority of other sects. Syria and Iraq are right in the middle of this. The more stable Muslim countries are backing parties in Syria and Iraq (and eventually Lebanon again) that correspond to their particular sect and ethnicity. Iran is backing Assad because he is an Alawite, a non-Sunni, non-Arab group. The Turks are supporting Turkmen, but fighting Kurds. Some Kurds are supporting Iran because they are not Arabs. Others are siding with Turkey for the same reason. The Gulf states, of course, are supporting the Sunni Arabs, including Daesh (although not officially).
Simple, right? Can you see why I don't think the United States or Europe, including Russia, should get involved? It is part religious war, part race war. Eventually, borders will be re-drawn and normalcy return. In the past the United States, wrapped in the UN Security Council, would step in and sort things out. It has squandered its credibility and can no longer do that. By bombing Syrian cities, even at the request of a faction that claims to be the de jure government, Russia is failing to build the credibility it needs to fill that role.
Turks backing the bad muslim country ALL the time is a bit of a stretch imho . Currently Syria & Iran are not backed by Turks and they are both muslim countries .
Turks want their muslim Community of 1.5 billion to form a global union , just like the Christian Club of Europe .
Here is the problem: Turks are Sunni Muslims, but they are not Arabs. The Saudi Arabia and the Emirates are Sunni Muslims, but they Are Arabs. Iran are Shi'a Muslims, but they are not Arabs. Kurds are mostly Sunni Muslims, but they are not Arabs. Iraq is mostly Shi'a, and they are Arabs. Syria is mostly Sunni, and they are mostly Arabs. Right?
After the Ottoman Empire collapsed, there were assorted coups resulting in minority sects ruling over the majority of other sects. Syria and Iraq are right in the middle of this. The more stable Muslim countries are backing parties in Syria and Iraq (and eventually Lebanon again) that correspond to their particular sect and ethnicity. Iran is backing Assad because he is an Alawite, a non-Sunni, non-Arab group. The Turks are supporting Turkmen, but fighting Kurds. Some Kurds are supporting Iran because they are not Arabs. Others are siding with Turkey for the same reason. The Gulf states, of course, are supporting the Sunni Arabs, including Daesh (although not officially).
Simple, right? Can you see why I don't think the United States or Europe, including Russia, should get involved? It is part religious war, part race war. Eventually, borders will be re-drawn and normalcy return. In the past the United States, wrapped in the UN Security Council, would step in and sort things out. It has squandered its credibility and can no longer do that. By bombing Syrian cities, even at the request of a faction that claims to be the de jure government, Russia is failing to build the credibility it needs to fill that role.
originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: bjarneorn
Why? Fallout crosses borders and radiation does not discriminate based on nationality. Second Russia, along with who they attack, would be reduced to ash.
You want to take this once again?
This war needs to be ended ... the entire middle east scenario needs to be ended. It's already more or less become inhabitable, and quickly so ... and a 30 year war there, with prolonged use of depleted uranium munition, will merely do in 30 years ... what a nuke or two would do anyway. The final outcome, will be the same.
And if you think NATO is going to be help ... you're the moron here.
We don't want NATO ... and if this war escalates ... we'll kick you out of Europe.
If you don't believe it ... allow this war to escalate, and watch.
edit on 29/11/2015 by bjarneorn because: (no reason given)
a reply to: bjarneorn
By that reasoning, NATO should be flying nukes over Crimea. For obvious strategic reasons, Israel will never surrender the Golan Heights. Making the de facto situation permanent is likely to be a part of any peace treaty that Israel signs with the next Syrian government.
No, they need to load their planes with nukes.
The Golan Heights is not Israel ... and since Israel's annexation of this territory is not acknowledged by UN, there is no need for Russia to comply to this ... none, what so ever.
By that reasoning, NATO should be flying nukes over Crimea. For obvious strategic reasons, Israel will never surrender the Golan Heights. Making the de facto situation permanent is likely to be a part of any peace treaty that Israel signs with the next Syrian government.
a reply to: bjarneorn
Russia is the one escalating it. Also, you do not seem to understand what nuclear weapons are. Depleted uranium gives off low level particle radiation. A nuclear weapon is like scorching the Earth with a chunk of the Sun: gamma and neutron radiation that cause material objects to literally disintegrate.
If you don't believe it ... allow this war to escalate, and watch.
Russia is the one escalating it. Also, you do not seem to understand what nuclear weapons are. Depleted uranium gives off low level particle radiation. A nuclear weapon is like scorching the Earth with a chunk of the Sun: gamma and neutron radiation that cause material objects to literally disintegrate.
originally posted by: DJW001
Eventually, borders will be re-drawn and normalcy return. In the past the United States, wrapped in the UN Security Council, would step in and sort things out. It has squandered its credibility and can no longer do that. By bombing Syrian cities, even at the request of a faction that claims to be the de jure government, Russia is failing to build the credibility it needs to fill that role.
A war, based on race, religion and ethnicity will never return to any normalcy.
Problem with the scenario is the following, Turkey has an interest in Syria ... annex some of it. All sides are supporting ISIS as a playing, think they can deal with ISIS later ... and in all of this, the Assad part of Syria, would be annexed and destroyed. ISIS is performing ethnic cleansing, by mass murder in the territories formerly sunni ... removing any "non" sunni's from the region.
Beyond the religion/racist factor, oil and gas is also a major scenario. What will happen, when Assad's regime falls ... that part of Syria falls under ISIS, with hundreds of thousands murdered in the most populated area of Syria? What you end up with, is a political situation where radical islamists will have a major control over the oil and gas industry, and it's distribution as well.
Is that acceptable? I mean, as a European ... I don't want the Ottomans here, any more than I want the nazis.
originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: bjarneorn
Russia is the one escalating it.
No, they are "threatening" to stop it ... daring Turkey and NATO to allow it to escalate.
There is a subtle difference.
What I'm saying is, that if US/NATO with Turkey as it's stooge allow this to occur. The middle east is not going to be a problem anymore, as Europe will become a complete turnaround politically.
If you don't believe me, just sit and watch ... if the US is stupid enough to do it.
edit on 29/11/2015 by bjarneorn because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: Codeinum
Ok, i'm reading ATS for 3 years now and finally i registered here. First of all, english is not my first language, so im sorry for mistakes. I'm from Russia and i'm currently working for FSB (it's like CIA in US i guess). I'm not an agent, or whatever you call it, i am just IT specialist.
I read through this thread and I've got a feeling that you just don't understand neaither Putin, or russians. Many of you saw Putin as strong leader and he sure is, but those who are saying they want leader like that in they own country is crazy. I mean, yeah, Putin is strong leader as far as foreign politic goes, but inside Russia... Damn. No, it's not that bad! I mean, c'mon, there is no poverty here, our streets are not dangerous as they were in 90's, but there is corruption. Corruption is everywhere! There is no opposition. ABSOLUTELY no opposition to Putin. We have many different parties, but they are just puppets of Putin, and they are not ashamed of this fact. Democracy is a myth here.
And you know why? Russian hates democracy! F'n hates it and proud of it. 85-90% of russians hates US and EU. Not people, but goverment. Why? Because of propaganda. You know, russians are very easy to manipulate. I guess same goes for other countries too. Our people despise you, guys. And there is one thing about russians, that you probably heard of... We are fast to mobilize! Oh, hell yeah, we are fast. Give us an enemy and whole nation will go crazy! It's something barbaric you know. So right now ratings of Putin i great not becaue of Putin himself, but because of hatred towards US and EU that "tries to destroy our motherland"! It's a fact. I hate it. I am ashamed that our nation is so easy to manipulate. Not all are like that, but if i would say that i have nothing against EU, or US and i don't approve our politics there would be !@#$ storm towards me!
I don't even know why i'm writing all this. Probably because i'm drink a little bit too much. Nah, i'm drunk not because all russians are alcoholics! My friend have his first child today, so we was celebrating... Anyway. Don't fool yourselfs about Putin, he is not a saver, neather he is a good man. And don't fool yourself about russians... Man, that sucks so much.
And yeah, working in FSB gives you insight on foul policies and f'd up things our goverment do.
Interesting you are an insider I wonder how Russia plans to deal with any future opposition which they may have to deal with soon, carried out by terrorists funded and equiped by various countries.
Syria rebels target airport used by Russia
now.mmedia.me...
There are forces being supplied to strike Russian forces in Syria. What may Russia do about the killing of thier pilot? Lets not forget NATO has Russia surrounded and sanctioned.
Turkey warns Russia not to 'play with fire' over downed jet
www.bbc.co.uk...
Also Turkey says they will shoot down another jet if the same thing happens, and that Russia is playing with fire. Lets not forget Turkey has around 70 nuclear weapons given to them by the USA.
Turkey has 60-70 confirmed nuclear warheads! – List of states with nuclear weapons.
investmentwatchblog.com...
So I am wondering if there may be some covert man made disaster to strike some of these countries but made to look like a natural disaster. For example a tsunami weapon made so it doesnt leave radiation which could be tracked.
theeconomiccollapseblog.com...
“A warhead of up to 100 megatons could produce a tsunami up to 500m (1,650ft) high, wiping out all living things 1,500km (930 miles) deep inside US territory“
The question is will Russia ever openly go to war with the countries funding a war against Russian allies?
I often wonder if Russia intends to fund proxy forces to destabilize the countries funding terrorism similar to the arab spring and Syrian civil war.
The war seems one way meaning countries are attacking by sending forces into Syria and Russia and its few allies are only defending and seem unable to or afraid to strike those countries back in an open manner.
What I see is Russia negotiating with various countries which sponser terrorism and most likely have ill intent in thier future agenda.
edit on 29-11-2015 by FormOfTheLord because: (no reason given)
edit on 29-11-2015 by FormOfTheLord because: (no reason
given)
a reply to: bjarneorn
Which is why Turkey, Russia, France, and Iran need to sit down and figure out who gets what before the endgame. All parties concerned need a gas and oil pipeline through the region. Turkey could trade a predominantly Kurdish part of eastern Anatolia for a Turkmen chunk of Syria. Syria can cede a chunk of territory adjacent to Iraq and that whole area can become an independent Kurdistan. Russia gets to keep its bases (and use of the Bosporus), while Saudi Arabia and Russia get tapped to rebuild the infrastructure Russia helped Assad destroy, paid for by transit fees and, eventually, a cut of Syria's oil income. Once everyone agrees, ISIS will realize that they are completely surrounded geographically, and can be pushed back to their redoubt in Dabiq. QED
Beyond the religion/racist factor, oil and gas is also a major scenario. What will happen, when Assad's regime falls ... that part of Syria falls under ISIS, with hundreds of thousands murdered in the most populated area of Syria? What you end up with, is a political situation where radical islamists will have a major control over the oil and gas industry, and it's distribution as well.
Which is why Turkey, Russia, France, and Iran need to sit down and figure out who gets what before the endgame. All parties concerned need a gas and oil pipeline through the region. Turkey could trade a predominantly Kurdish part of eastern Anatolia for a Turkmen chunk of Syria. Syria can cede a chunk of territory adjacent to Iraq and that whole area can become an independent Kurdistan. Russia gets to keep its bases (and use of the Bosporus), while Saudi Arabia and Russia get tapped to rebuild the infrastructure Russia helped Assad destroy, paid for by transit fees and, eventually, a cut of Syria's oil income. Once everyone agrees, ISIS will realize that they are completely surrounded geographically, and can be pushed back to their redoubt in Dabiq. QED
originally posted by: DJW001
Which is why Turkey, Russia, France, and Iran need to sit down and figure out who gets what before the endgame. All parties concerned need a gas and oil pipeline through the region. Turkey could trade a predominantly Kurdish part of eastern Anatolia for a Turkmen chunk of Syria. Syria can cede a chunk of territory adjacent to Iraq and that whole area can become an independent Kurdistan. Russia gets to keep its bases (and use of the Bosporus), while Saudi Arabia and Russia get tapped to rebuild the infrastructure Russia helped Assad destroy, paid for by transit fees and, eventually, a cut of Syria's oil income. Once everyone agrees, ISIS will realize that they are completely surrounded geographically, and can be pushed back to their redoubt in Dabiq. QED
Agreed, this is exactly what we all hope will happen ... and it will bring an end to the conflict.
originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: 23432
Turks backing the bad muslim country ALL the time is a bit of a stretch imho . Currently Syria & Iran are not backed by Turks and they are both muslim countries .
Turks want their muslim Community of 1.5 billion to form a global union , just like the Christian Club of Europe .
Here is the problem: Turks are Sunni Muslims, but they are not Arabs. The Saudi Arabia and the Emirates are Sunni Muslims, but they Are Arabs. Iran are Shi'a Muslims, but they are not Arabs. Kurds are mostly Sunni Muslims, but they are not Arabs. Iraq is mostly Shi'a, and they are Arabs. Syria is mostly Sunni, and they are mostly Arabs. Right?
After the Ottoman Empire collapsed, there were assorted coups resulting in minority sects ruling over the majority of other sects. Syria and Iraq are right in the middle of this. The more stable Muslim countries are backing parties in Syria and Iraq (and eventually Lebanon again) that correspond to their particular sect and ethnicity. Iran is backing Assad because he is an Alawite, a non-Sunni, non-Arab group. The Turks are supporting Turkmen, but fighting Kurds. Some Kurds are supporting Iran because they are not Arabs. Others are siding with Turkey for the same reason. The Gulf states, of course, are supporting the Sunni Arabs, including Daesh (although not officially).
Simple, right? Can you see why I don't think the United States or Europe, including Russia, should get involved? It is part religious war, part race war. Eventually, borders will be re-drawn and normalcy return. In the past the United States, wrapped in the UN Security Council, would step in and sort things out. It has squandered its credibility and can no longer do that. By bombing Syrian cities, even at the request of a faction that claims to be the de jure government, Russia is failing to build the credibility it needs to fill that role.
In an ideal world , EU , US & Russia would stay out of the area but that expectation is not really pragmatic in it's essence .
West needs energy , particularly EU and Middle East is capable to supply it. So EU & US will have to be in the area to ensure the security of the energy supply routes . Otherwise these routes would become unstable and EU & US would become vulnerable.
Russia is in the area to fulfill a long lost emperial dream of having to control trade in warm seas . Russia has a big enough land mass to be very successfull Capitalist Democracy but Russian have no tradition of Democracy . Even Turks have some traditional experience of Democracy in their past but Russians are hopelessly foreign to concept of Democracy , both on an individual level and a national level.
Turks not being Arabs is not a problem for the Arabs at the moment . Historically Turks lead muslims for a millenia and because of that the Arab Nationalism is not going to be a winner against revival of the Caliphate .
It is a race & religion war , you are correct of course . This was is being waged to destabilise any nation that might go against the current Israeli government .
Almost all military powers of the earth are in the area and they all have brought big guns too .
Somewhat this doesn't look good for future .
www.upi.com...
Rebels hand over body of Russia pilot to Turkish government
Dunno if posted yet
Rebels hand over body of Russia pilot to Turkish government
ANKARA, Turkey, Nov. 29 (UPI) -- The body of a Russian pilot killed by rebels in Syria after his jet was downed by Turkey's military has been handed over to Turkish authorities.
The pilot, Lt. Col. Oleg Peshkov, received Orthodox funeral rites, at Russia's request, and his body will be returned to Russia, Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said Sunday.
Dunno if posted yet
edit on 29-11-2015 by sosobad because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: DJW001
They only have a year to do it. Something tells me it will be China who will be able to bring everyone to the table.
The current "stopper" for it to happen, is Turkey trying to play the NATO card. So, yes, if China comes in ... there is no more NATO card to play ... and they're all forced to go to the table.
originally posted by: sosobad
www.upi.com...
Rebels hand over body of Russia pilot to Turkish government
ANKARA, Turkey, Nov. 29 (UPI) -- The body of a Russian pilot killed by rebels in Syria after his jet was downed by Turkey's military has been handed over to Turkish authorities.
The pilot, Lt. Col. Oleg Peshkov, received Orthodox funeral rites, at Russia's request, and his body will be returned to Russia, Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said Sunday.
Dunno if posted yet
Yes we have it, but this is not the entire statement. They also mocked Christians, they said " We also made him some prays in your ways"... I will try find the news again and post it.
AFTER EDIT :
Turkish media say : Turkey is ready to close the straits of Bosporos, we bombarded syrian army positions.
link
Turks returning the body of the dead pilot, they also mocked christians.
link
The articles can be autotranslated, just pick your flag, located under the main article title and picture.
edit on 29-11-2015 by Ploutonas
because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: Ploutonas
originally posted by: sosobad
www.upi.com...
Rebels hand over body of Russia pilot to Turkish government
ANKARA, Turkey, Nov. 29 (UPI) -- The body of a Russian pilot killed by rebels in Syria after his jet was downed by Turkey's military has been handed over to Turkish authorities.
The pilot, Lt. Col. Oleg Peshkov, received Orthodox funeral rites, at Russia's request, and his body will be returned to Russia, Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said Sunday.
Dunno if posted yet
Yes we have it, but this is not the entire statement. They also mocked Christians, they said " We also made him some prays in your ways"... I will try find the news again and post it.
Cheers