Turkey shot down Russian Jet: reportedly by two F16's

originally posted by: Codeinum
a reply to: earthling42

There is no democracy at all. I have strong feeling that all goverments are about the same as far as methods of work goes. Obama, Bush, Putin, Medvedev - it's all the same. There is political gangs controling our goverments. Im not insider by any means, but sometimes there is specific documents that coming through my department that is so f'd up and for me there is no doubt that certain people are far more important and powerful than president of Russia, or US, or any other country. I'm not saying that president is not making any decisions, but he is heavy influenced by others.
But you know it better than me, ATS is the one of the most paranoid websites I have ever visited.

Cool! I was hoping someone in Russia would chime in. I am very interested in the viewpoints of regular, Russian citizens. What do you think, Codeinum, of the jet being shot down?

Welcome to paranoid ATS!

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: Ploutonas


In any government it all depends on who is in charge. An authoritarian government like Russia can work. Some dictators truly look out for their people and put the people's interest above theirs.

I think this point of view is very ignorant ...

Obama is not in charge of the US, neither is the public ... TRUE democracy, can only be born from a revolution. The US, has long since it's birth, become an empire.

China is a more a democracy, than the US ... and I am willing to be that so is Russia. Europe, is not a democracy ... it's balkanised to the brink of infertility. The EU, had a real chance at becoming a democracy ... but failed, because of NATO.

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: Ploutonas


In any government it all depends on who is in charge. An authoritarian government like Russia can work. Some dictators truly look out for their people and put the people's interest above theirs. I'll go as far as saying Putin attempted this he was trying to clean up the country and stop corruption. And having family there at first even I was pro putin. But then Russia returned to business as usual and in Russia that means corruption and manipulation. I also think this shows the power of the oligharhs they have taken over and will do anything to make sure they keep their assets including remove Putin. So now he's gone to creating fear to make changes and he needs an enemy because with out he he looses his control. Remember the plug Gary's don't need him he needs them. He can't fight the corruption he's apart of it now. He's sold billions in government assets to his backers and taken billions from others to give to them. Problem is he has nothing to offer them anymore they control everything.

So for him to stay now he needs to create an external threat to convince everyone he can protect them. Many dictators eventually fall on to this to maintain power. It's easier in the short run but long term consequences are severe especially for the country. He has already taken away parts of the Russian Constitution they were so close to creating a functional republic but greed and corruption won.

Putin was never fighting corruption, believe me on this. He did fight with small corrupts, but most of olighars are his friends. His childhood friends are top dogs in our buisness and on highest positions in goverment.

originally posted by: tweetie

originally posted by: Codeinum
a reply to: earthling42

There is no democracy at all. I have strong feeling that all goverments are about the same as far as methods of work goes. Obama, Bush, Putin, Medvedev - it's all the same. There is political gangs controling our goverments. Im not insider by any means, but sometimes there is specific documents that coming through my department that is so f'd up and for me there is no doubt that certain people are far more important and powerful than president of Russia, or US, or any other country. I'm not saying that president is not making any decisions, but he is heavy influenced by others.
But you know it better than me, ATS is the one of the most paranoid websites I have ever visited.

Cool! I was hoping someone in Russia would chime in. I am very interested in the viewpoints of regular, Russian citizens. What do you think, Codeinum, of the jet being shot down?

Welcome to paranoid ATS!

It's crazy. My jaw droped when I heard about the incedent. Of course there will be no military consequences, funny many dudes here are seriously talking about Russia vs Turkey war. Putin isn't stupid and will never do something that can drag NATO into war with us. NEVER.
Russians are mad about this incident, but we are quick to forget things like that. First thing you need to know is that Putin is very angry about this. Very. He started long term sanctions against Turkey. For example (you probably heard about this, but maybe not) from now on Turkey citizens can't work in Russia. Almost all Turkey buisness will be kicked out from Russia. There will be no tourist tours to Turkey anymore (and for Turkey this is the most serious blow). So this sanctions is here to stay and i think this is right thing to do (except for turkey workers - this is too much). Erdogan is very shady guy and should not be trusted by anyone. I don't get how and why Turkey got into NATO. I guess NATO really wants to get as close as possible to Russian borders, but Turkey...? This is unpredictable, irrational country with pretty agressive people that will not support anything against muslims. And when US invite Turkey in coalition against ISIS we here know from the start that this will not work out. Give them a choice between the most humane, free, wealthy, but chrstian country and irrational, psychopath, mass murderer, henocide muslim country and they will choose latest.

People from Turkey confirms more movement of military from the Western borders to the Syrian border. There are talks about going into Syria to attack ISIS.

a reply to: Codeinum

I don't get how and why Turkey got into NATO. I guess NATO really wants to get as close as possible to Russian borders, but Turkey...?

Turkey controls Russia's access to the Mediterranean. If Russia went to war with Turkey, Crimea would be useless.

a reply to: bjarneorn

China is a more a democracy, than the US ... and I am willing to be that so is Russia. Europe, is not a democracy ... it's balkanised to the brink of infertility. The EU, had a real chance at becoming a democracy ... but failed, because of NATO.

If you genuine believe this, please start a thread to explain why... it is way off topic here, but I would love to hear your reasoning.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Codeinum

I don't get how and why Turkey got into NATO. I guess NATO really wants to get as close as possible to Russian borders, but Turkey...?

Turkey controls Russia's access to the Mediterranean. If Russia went to war with Turkey, Crimea would be useless.

Same for serious sanctions. Russia needs to be careful, Turkey is not afraid to be aggressive.

I think the topic is at this point destroying terrorists and we talk war between countries .. isn't it a bit insane?? where is the logic here.. You want war why fight terrorists

a reply to: DJW001

I am reading your posts
can you sum up what's your point here? what are you trying to tell us all that Russia is evil and wants access to meditation sea ? That's what I am getting so far
so that goes for everyone arguing your point too

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Codeinum

I don't get how and why Turkey got into NATO. I guess NATO really wants to get as close as possible to Russian borders, but Turkey...?

Turkey controls Russia's access to the Mediterranean. If Russia went to war with Turkey, Crimea would be useless.

Same for serious sanctions. Russia needs to be careful, Turkey is not afraid to be aggressive.

Russia's population has actually been declining: between low birth rates and increased emigration, there is actually a labor shortage. Restricting immigration hurts its economy. Closing a major market for agricultural goods hurts farmers. Putin's sanctions against Turkey hurt Russia more than they do Turkey. The final irony is that all the tourists who would have gone to Turkey will now vacation in Crimea and see first hand what is really going on there.

a reply to: Layaly

can you sum up what's your point here? what are you trying to tell us all that Russia is evil and wants access to meditation sea ? That's what I am getting so far

No. Here are the things I need to keep explaining:

1. Both Putin and Erdogan are ruthless dictators trying to extend their power base internationally.

2. Both are backing violent factions in a civil war that has already destroyed a third nation.

3. Erdogan is backing factions based on religion, Putin is backing factions to retain an established client.

4. Russia needs access to the Mediterranean if it is to be able to project power by sea.

5. Turkey controls access to the Mediterranean from the Black Sea, Syria from the east.

6. Religious fanatics have taken advantage of the lack of civil government to form a theocratic state through terror.

7. Putin is using the brutality of the theocratic would-be state as a pretext to assist its client in the civil war.

8. Russia's tactics are killing innocent civilians and destroying infrastructure deliberately, in imitation of the United States in Iraq.

9. The civil war has become a proxy war between Russia and Iran on one side and Turkey and the Gulf States on the other.

10. Putin's attempt to expand Russian hegemony has included testing the resolve of other nations by violating their airspace.

11. Erdogan, being a strongman himself, understands Putin's psychology.

12. Syria shot down a Turkish plane that strayed into its airspace last year, establishing new rules of engagement.

13. Erdogan made it clear that, under the rules of engagement established by Syria, Turkey would shoot down any Russian aircraft that entered its airspace.

14. Russia has been bombing ethnically Turkish people on the Turkish border.

15. A plane involved in those operations strayed into Turkish airspace, however briefly.

16. Turkey shot the plane down to prove that Erdogan is as strong as Putin.

17. Russia cannot afford a direct confrontation with Turkey, even if NATO does not back them.

18. Putin cannot assume that Turkey does not secretly posses nuclear weapons. (I have not mentioned that yet in this thread, but it's worth pointing out to the idiots who are hoping Putin will go nuclear.)

19. Now that Erdogan has proven that he is as big a badass as Putin, the two can now talk man-to-man.

20. Both sides can achieve their primary goals through negotiation.

21. These negotiations need to be concluded before a new American administration destabilizes the situation in an unpredictable fashion.

22. Access to the Mediterranean and retaining Syria as a client is more important to Russia than Assad actually is.

Clear? Any questions? Or are you going to go with "Russia good, Turkey bad."

originally posted by: DJW001
Clear? Any questions? Or are you going to go with "Russia good, Turkey bad."

If so I recommend a good dry brine, Turkey will always be good after that.

originally posted by: Codeinum
Ok, i'm reading ATS for 3 years now and finally i registered here. First of all, english is not my first language, so im sorry for mistakes. I'm from Russia and i'm currently working for FSB (it's like CIA in US i guess). I'm not an agent, or whatever you call it, i am just IT specialist.
I read through this thread and I've got a feeling that you just don't understand neaither Putin, or russians. Many of you saw Putin as strong leader and he sure is, but those who are saying they want leader like that in they own country is crazy. I mean, yeah, Putin is strong leader as far as foreign politic goes, but inside Russia... Damn. No, it's not that bad! I mean, c'mon, there is no poverty here, our streets are not dangerous as they were in 90's, but there is corruption. Corruption is everywhere! There is no opposition. ABSOLUTELY no opposition to Putin. We have many different parties, but they are just puppets of Putin, and they are not ashamed of this fact. Democracy is a myth here.

... Man, that sucks so much.
And yeah, working in FSB gives you insight on foul policies and f'd up things our goverment do.

Damn. ATS is awesome.

We might be a little over paranoid here but man do we get some interesting people pop in here from time to time.

Thanks for your insights and I hope it doesn't come with repercussions.

a reply to: Codeinum

I don't get how and why Turkey got into NATO.

Quite a lot has changed since 1952, letters on a static document however, do not change, unless a change is made wilfully.

a reply to: Codeinum

Oh and your English is better than quite a few Americans.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Lol, I thought the same.

originally posted by: Rosinitiate
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Lol, I thought the same.

I really respect everyone who learns another language, something Americans should learn from.

originally posted by: Codeinum
Turkey...? This is unpredictable, irrational country with pretty agressive people that will not support anything against muslims. And when US invite Turkey in coalition against ISIS we here know from the start that this will not work out. Give them a choice between the most humane, free, wealthy, but chrstian country and irrational, psychopath, mass murderer, henocide muslim country and they will choose latest.

ha ha ha



Most humane , free , wealthy but Christian country = Russia


You are a young man , aren't you ?

originally posted by: 23432

originally posted by: Codeinum
Turkey...? This is unpredictable, irrational country with pretty agressive people that will not support anything against muslims. And when US invite Turkey in coalition against ISIS we here know from the start that this will not work out. Give them a choice between the most humane, free, wealthy, but chrstian country and irrational, psychopath, mass murderer, henocide muslim country and they will choose latest.

ha ha ha

Most humane , free , wealthy but Christian country = Russia


You are a young man , aren't you ?

I think you misunderstood his point. He was not talking about Russia. He was saying if two countries were at odds, one being a peaceful Christian country, the other a violent extremist Muslim country, Turkey would back the Muslim country every time.

I believe he was saying Turkey will always back Islam over all others, no matter what.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

I believe he was saying Turkey will always back Islam over all others, no matter what.

At least Erdogan would.