Two Questions for Transgender people

a reply to: Domo1

I know and understand where you are coming from, its just where you are going I cant get a handle on

originally posted by: Domo1
“And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a ‘satisfied’ but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs,” said Dr. McHugh.

I was going to stay out of this crapfest but had to comment here. You had to be a troubled screwed up person to even get in the program at Johns Hopkins and those that did were treated like meat. People were nothing but lab rats that and they didn't give two sh!ts about them and for this supposedly scientific study, their bias and objectivity as well as their surgical results had been questioned from the start. There wasn't much else available in the 70's and I actually had been given a referral to this program. I never even completed the 20 page application even though I was highly motivated. "Normal organs"? For a man maybe and that's how this program treated people.

There's estimated 30,000 to 50,000 post operative transsexual people and around 1,000 more each year in this country alone who would most decidedly not agree with good Dr. McHugh.

a reply to: EKron

In a world that blames every thing on every one else, uses any excuse to shift blame, does any of this surprise you

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: JadeStar

If you are a guy who is sexually prolific,

This shouldn't have anything to do with it. Not all men want to sleep with a transgender person. It doesn't matter if they are promiscuous. That's not the point.

Not all women want to sleep with a jerk either. Should a guy have to disclose this? How about how you having to disclose how many sex partners you had in the last year without being asked?

So now it's the man's fault for thinking that someone who presents as a woman is actually societies (right or wrong) definition of a woman?

Your refusal to accept me as a woman is the problem. The fundamental thing you aren't getting is that the only lie would be if you were a woman and I had never had corrective surgery and I slept with you pretending that I was a guy.


In other words sex is in the brain because it is a biological fact that we develop our brains before our sex organs. Everyone born was once a female fetus. Some of those female embryos turn into males in body and brain, some of them remain female in body and brain and in some rare instances the brain does not match the body because the process which causes a differentiation is not 100 percent. Some people are born transgender other people are born intersexed.

Of those last two, it is the brain which determines their identity.

In other words don't be so promiscuous.

Right, and women who dress provocatively are asking to be raped, so it's excusable when it happens.

You're comparing a man on the prowl, sleeping around frequently to a woman who was raped? Seriously? I realize now you have bigger issues with gender and sexuality than just this one.

Oh fun! I've lived in and around Seattle my entire life! I suppose I'm no longer in my twenties, it's been a few months. I can't think of a single guy I know that wouldn't be upset to learn he had slept with a transgender woman. Perhaps if you frequent Neighbors this is the norm.

That's not what I was talking about. I didn't meet either of the two guys i mentioned on Capital Hill (which really has never been my scene) I am talking about clubs and bars on and around the UW campus, even Belltown or other downtown clubs.

I have no problem with you or your transition

Yes you do and you refuse to see what that problem is. You consider me less than a woman. That's a MAJOR problem.

I just don't want to sleep with transgendered people. How is that a bad thing? I also don't want to have multiple partners, does that make me sexually repressed and bigoted? I will gladly be your friend if you're a nice person, I don't have any animosity toward transgendered people, I actually have quite a bit of respect. Perhaps instead of pouting about my ignorance and running away from civil conversation you could enlighten me a bit.

I've tried. Your mental block is that you consider me less than a woman. I have every right to pout about that.

Those are wildly different things. I would still think it morally reprehensible for a woman to lie about that if she was asked point blank. I would think it morally wrong to lie about being a virgin.

SO if you only wanted to have sex with virgins is it up to ever woman to tell you she is no longer a virgin?

As I said it is not lying to not want to wear a scarlet "T". If you want to know. Ask.

I think it morally wrong not to inform someone if you have undergone major surgery and hormone therapy to become more feminine in appearance.

And that's your problem. You think it is just about appearance.

Um, if that's what this is about then why did you have gender reassignment surgery? The whole argument here is that a penis, lack thereof etc. doesn't equal gender. So why get rid of it?

Because we'd like our bodies to match our minds. Would you like breasts and a vagina?

To force us all to wear a scarlet letter "T" for casual sex because of your insecurity is pushing your internal issues off on the poor girl you picked up.

I'm not asking you to wear a scarlet "t", I'm asking you to not sleep with someone without informing them that you are not necessarily what they are expecting.

Would you mind telling me how i am "not what they are expecting"?

In case you didn't read the other thread with my parents and I trying our best to educate people (which is what you say you want right?):

according to my mom even before i was born she knew i was a girl because i didn't kick as much as boys do.

according to my dad i have always been very feminine and gentle.

according to older sisters and brother I was always playing with dolls, playing house, etc.

according to my Mom i was the most 'girly girl' of her three daughters.

according to me, i never was a boy. i never felt like a boy or acted like one.

i went to school as the girl i am.

i joined and was accepted into the Girl Scouts of Western Washington as the girl I am

i never experienced a male's puberty. testosterone never coursed through my body

my puberty consisted of estrogen coursing through my body and my body developing accordingly

i socialized as the girl i am and became friends with other girls. my best friends always have been girls

i graduated high school (with honors) as the girl i am

i have a birth certificate, driver's license and passport which have an F on them.

i am in my 2nd year at a university as a young woman and am in a sorority.

i'm fairly attractive according to most, warm and lovable (usually lol!)
sexually i respond no different than any other young woman (those two guys both told me that had i not said anything they'd have never have known)

the majority of my life has been no different than most girls and young women.


So please tell me, how am I different from what they are expecting?

You may be incredibly feminine, and your brain may be female, but people having casual sex aren't interested in you emotionally.

Then what are they interested in? Because as others have stated if it is just about sex and them getting off, then it does not matter since there's no way they'd know nor would it feel any different. If they aren't investing emotionally in me why would i invest anything emotionally in them?

Or does only the guy's feelings matter?

Look most of us just want to live normal lives. You are asking us to do something that you would ask no other women to do which is disclose something deeply personal from their often distant past. And you're asking us to do this almost instantly upon meeting or before casual sex. That's perpetual abnormality. A scarlet letter "T".

Our feelings matter just as much as yours.

a reply to: JadeStar

I think this subject is just too taboo for him to handle, be proud of who you are, from what I have read you are a well adjusted person and have good reason to be proud

originally posted by: imod02
a reply to: JadeStar

I think this subject is just too taboo for him to handle, be proud of who you are, from what I have read you are a well adjusted person and have good reason to be proud

Thank you. i sort of think that he might be reachable? but then i'll see something else he writes which shows he is likely a lost cause. oh well, perhaps someone else reading and lurking may be better educated as a result... i don't know anymore if i should even try to educating anyone on these issues.

it's funny, until recently i didn't even think of them so much day to day and never would have guessed that i would be doing so on ATS.

one of the reasons that i identify as a woman born differently rather than "transgender woman" or "transsexual woman" is becauseof where the focus is verbally. i feel the former represents my life's experience better than the latter two phrases.

language matters.

a reply to: JadeStar

You can spend your life trying to educate people (= banging you head on a wall) or smile drink your coffee and enjoy life. After a very long and often painful life I go for the coffee now

Jade please please do not take this the wrong way I am not trying to pick a fight but I am trying to understand exactly why it is that you think it is not ok for him to not view you as a legitimate woman but you can hold that sentiment in regards to me.

Damn you hard to quote girl lol and I know we have been at each other lately but mama if you think you get a free pass at putting me down just because we are in the same club then you already know that would be a mistake.

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: Kojiro

Transgendered people shouldn't have to wear Jade's "scarlet letter T" just to pander to your sexual insecurities.

It sounds to me that the persons with the sexual insecurities would be the one hiding the truth about themselves to the other.

So why stop with transgender people?

Why shouldn't everyone have to disclose everything private about themselves upon first meeting? If you don't see how this is discriminatory sorry.

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: TrappedPrincess

It's a little hard to take her seriously. On the one hand, I'm a bad guy for not being into it, on the other it should be changed into something else...

“And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a ‘satisfied’ but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs,” said Dr. McHugh.

Ahem. So there's that too.

I'm ok with most of what you have said and understand where you are coming from. I have been thinking about this and I think what is going on is that I may be a better liaison between the divided on this issue than some. I'm not saying this to be catty but by self admission some of those that don't understand where you are coming from have said they may not understand because they are too different. Their words not mine also their words I am apparently an in betweener which I guess is what allows me to be a better bridge between the opposed and maybe open to compromising more to mutually suit both sides of the argument.

You have no plans to have surgery so i'd think perhaps you might not be the best bridge since we're talking about guys who like to put their penis in vaginas.

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess
Jade please please do not take this the wrong way I am not trying to pick a fight but I am trying to understand exactly why it is that you think it is not ok for him to not view you as a legitimate woman but you can hold that sentiment in regards to me.

Not Jade, but... Are you living and working full time as a woman? How long? Do you have dangly bits? Shave?

originally posted by: imod02
a reply to: JadeStar

You can spend your life trying to educate people (= banging you head on a wall) or smile drink your coffee and enjoy life. After a very long and often painful life I go for the coffee now

that's great advice. i think i will go have one now actually.

a reply to: JadeStar
May I join you? I've been drinking coffee over forty years and now question why I'm even in these threads in the first place. For all I've tried, I don't know what good it has done.

originally posted by: EKron

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess
Jade please please do not take this the wrong way I am not trying to pick a fight but I am trying to understand exactly why it is that you think it is not ok for him to not view you as a legitimate woman but you can hold that sentiment in regards to me.

Not Jade, but... Are you living and working full time as a woman? How long? Do you have dangly bits? Shave?

Again back to the "dangly bits" and from you hmm...Im self employed, I'm smooth all the time, I usually wear athletic wear due to the leisurely nature of my free time and I would wear basketball shorts, tank tops and flip flops either way I usually keep my hair pulled back, I'm actually pretty androgynous unless I'm going out on the town. I thought we had established that "dangly bits" or lack thereof does not determine ones role as a woman.

a reply to: TrappedPrincess

for him to not view you as a legitimate woman

This bugs me. I don't think of that as a bad thing. I don't think of a bisexual as being legitimately gay or legit straight... That doesn't mean I think less of them. I don't think less of a transgendered person, I think they are different. A different subcategory as legitimate as any other.

All I've seen her do is be condescending towards you and the whole sharing of information that seemed to be gleaned from a private message (since deleted) was troubling as well. You do you, you seem awesome.

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

Jade please please do not take this the wrong way I am not trying to pick a fight but I am trying to understand exactly why it is that you think it is not ok for him to not view you as a legitimate woman but you can hold that sentiment in regards to me.

I viewed you as a legitimate woman until you started harshly attacking other women both natal and trans who have lived most of their lives as girls and women. i understand you're a little jelly. as you have said many times before, you've spent most of your life living as a guy in the marines. additionally you have stated that you only recently have begun your transition. you also don't plan on having surgery so apparently you have some level of comfort with the body you were born into. you stated you'd rather "burn bridge and watch the ship go down". well you certainly are good at that. in other words you still have a lot to learn about womanhood.

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: TrappedPrincess

for him to not view you as a legitimate woman

This bugs me. I don't think of that as a bad thing. I don't think of a bisexual as being legitimately gay or legit straight... That doesn't mean I think less of them. I don't think less of a transgendered person, I think they are different. A different subcategory as legitimate as any other.

All I've seen her do is be condescending towards you and the whole sharing of information that seemed to be gleaned from a private message (since deleted) was troubling as well. You do you, you seem awesome.

Sincerely I'm glad that someone other than myself has noticed. As far as your views on the legitimacy of Jade or I's womanhood that is your right to your opinion and if none of us can change it then so be it. That is what some do not understand and will not budge on accepting other peoples views.

People, pissing war not good

originally posted by: EKron
a reply to: JadeStar
May I join you? I've been drinking coffee over forty years and now question why I'm even in these threads in the first place. For all I've tried, I don't know what good it has done.

Edit: Ok Let's go.

a reply to: JadeStar

Can i join you lot, coffee seems good now