Two Questions for Transgender people

There are two issues that have been on my mind for some time that I just can't figure out, and I know if I posted this anywhere else I would be immediately vilified and labeled a bigot. I concede the following two questions come from a place of pure ignorance, and may likely even piss off and/or hurt feelings... but I would genuinely like to understand some things. My mind is an empty canvas and I promise my intentions are pure. End of disclaimer, here goes...

1. One argument folks generally make for LGBT rights is to let them be, they aren't bothering you, they aren't hurting you etc. which I totally understand in issues like gay marriage. They like what they like and can't help that; I get that. The thing with a transgender female (previously male), however, is, they COULD potentially hurt me as a straight male, who is attracted to women and repulsed by intimacy with men. If I dated a woman and kissed or got remotely intimate, and found out later that she had a sex change when she was 6 years old-- similar to the story currently floating around-- I would be FURIOUS to say the least. I would feel deeply violated and upset. So I guess my question is: once you go through the full transition, what comes next in terms of sexual expression? Do you look for a straight male partner (like most other women)? Because it's my biological disposition to be repulsed by the thought of intimacy with a trans woman. Just as you can't help your feelings, I can't help mine...maybe some other straight guys beg to differ, but that's how I personally am wired, end of story.

2. When a two-year-old tells their parents that they feel like they're trapped inside another gender's body (which happened), could it be that perhaps society's crude gender roles need a deep examination rather than calling it an error in nature? I remember a study somewhere saying that little boys tend to actually be as emotional as little girls up until a certain age, when societal cues tell them all sorts of crap they must adhere to. I personally am equally annoyed by the hyper-masculine ideology of "manning up", sucking up emotions and never crying-- things like that-- as I am by the "girls belong in the kitchen" attitude, and strongly believe the world would be a MUCH better place if it were socially acceptable for men to feel more emotional and women to run things. In other words, if a little boy would rather play with dolls than trucks, maybe THAT should be okay and we instead break down patriarchal gender roles rather than questioning the predefined gender he associates with the most? Now, I know there's obviously much more to deciding to transition than that, but that seems to be the story that blogs and news always run with, so I'm trying to see how deep that really goes (for a two-year-old no less).

Any THOUGHTFUL replies here would be quite appreciated. Please resist the temptation to act like this is Facebook and drop a nifty one-liner for infinite stars-- that's too easy and neutralizes any opportunity for meaningful dialogue. There are fewer and fewer places around where you can discuss sensitive social issues so freely, so for my sake and others, help keep it that way!

a reply to: solarjetman

I would be FURIOUS to say the least. I would feel deeply violated and upset.

That sounds like something you should discuss. OR if you want to have casual sex without getting to know a person first, that's a risk that YOU take personally, doesn't have anything to do with the other person.

The thing with a transgender female (previously male), however, is, they COULD potentially hurt me as a straight male, who is attracted to women and repulsed by intimacy with men.

This comes down to personal interpretation. The woman you got intimate with, would not consider herself a man, under any circumstances. She would not be misrepresenting herself at all.

It is NOT your right to know that sort of thing about them as soon as you meet them.

I would feel deeply violated and upset. So I guess my question is: once you go through the full transition, what comes next in terms of sexual expression? Do you look for a straight male partner (like most other women)? Because it's my biological disposition to be repulsed by the thought of intimacy with a trans woman. Just as you can't help your feelings, I can't help mine...maybe some other straight guys beg to differ, but that's how I personally am wired, end of story.

Transgender does not mean gay.

If I was a male, who transitioned to a female and dated men, I would not be gay. I would identify as as straight women in a man's body before my transition, and then a straight women afterwards. You may see it differently, but again, not that person's fault, yours.

I don't believe that children, at that age, know enough to make decisions about their gender identity. Nor should parents be living vicariously through their children and make those decisions for them.

~Tenth

a reply to: solarjetman

A buddy of mine is on the path to becoming physically female, having previously been physically male. She, and I will support her decision in this matter by referring to her as female, is actually attracted to females. You see, you have to disconnect the idea of sexuality, preference in terms of partner and so on, from gender, which is the central identity issue which leads people to get their gender reassigned.

So in actual fact, it is not certain in the least that a transgendered woman will be attracted to males, since they have at least as good a chance as women who were born women, of being attracted to the ladies.

As for the second issue you raised, I think that society is idiotic in some of its expectations, especially when the times we live in have no place for things like true honour, the determination to defend to the death, your family, friends, and community from any and all threats, as was the way in times long past. Those who walk the path of honour these days are considered criminals when they successfully defend their honour, so I can understand that these days a youngster could become very confused about where they are supposed to be, and what they are supposed to be doing.

Personally, I think waiting till the age of responsibility is probably a better option than going in guns a blazing early on, but I am far from an expert in these matters.

a reply to: TrueBrit

I would just think of what Roy Cropper did (All bless the great Roy) he accepted Haley because of love.
OP would you deny yourself a loving relationship If you found out? what If you loved her?.

a reply to: boymonkey74

For all that your sentiment and meaning are clear, I have to point out that no one, and nothing that has ever happened in a television soap opera can be considered "great". Barely passable, utter nonsense, twaddle, these all apply. But great is a word reserved for much loftier entertainers than the tedious "talents" involved in soap opera.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: TrueBrit

I would just think of what Roy Cropper did (All bless the great Roy) he accepted Haley because of love.
OP would you deny yourself a loving relationship If you found out? what If you loved her?.

Well, OP said he wouldn't be down with it, I don't see what difference this question makes. I could throw some cliches around about how it can't be true love because it was based on deception, or there can't be love without trust. However, as we know, hypotheticals like yours and cliches like mine rarely change minds.

Hi Tenth, thanks for the prompt reply.

I typically prefer not to have sex until at least a few dates in, but I might kiss a girl or engage in other intimate acts before that. I think it's pretty standard to at least kiss someone you're dating goodnight pretty early on, but even that would make me feel upset to not know.

It is NOT your right to know that sort of thing about them as soon as you meet them.

But first you said I ought to discuss that with them before getting intimate... so if the onus is on me to find out, then when would be the appropriate time to ask something like that and how? I imagine asking about this would be highly sensitive to transgenders and offensive to naturally born women, even if I waited six months or more.

If I was a male, who transitioned to a female and dated men, I would not be gay. I would identify as as straight women in a man's body before my transition, and then a straight women afterwards. You may see it differently, but again, not that person's fault, yours.

Thanks for the clarity. Here's the issue... I'm not saying anyone is at fault here. If they feel trapped in the opposite sex's body, I can't blame them for how they feel. So what I don't understand is, how then can it be my fault for what I am attracted to? I really don't care about other people's business-- trans folks getting with other men or women-- I just don't want to be expected to change the way I'M wired on a genetic level to accommodate others in the process.

originally posted by: solarjetman

If I dated a woman and kissed or got remotely intimate, and found out later that she had a sex change when she was 6 years old-- similar to the story currently floating around-- I would be FURIOUS to say the least. I would feel deeply violated and upset.

That's because deep down, your heart and mind know that you were kissing a man - no matter what many want to pretend.

That's the reality of it.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: solarjetman

A buddy of mine is on the path to becoming physically female, having previously been physically male. She, and I will support her decision in this matter by referring to her as female, is actually attracted to females. You see, you have to disconnect the idea of sexuality, preference in terms of partner and so on, from gender, which is the central identity issue which leads people to get their gender reassigned.

So in actual fact, it is not certain in the least that a transgendered woman will be attracted to males, since they have at least as good a chance as women who were born women, of being attracted to the ladies.

That's a very good point. I was just thinking that through as I was typing the original post.

a reply to: solarjetman

But first you said I ought to discuss that with them before getting intimate... so if the onus is on me to find out, then when would be the appropriate time to ask something like that and how?

Does it matter though?

I mean, you say, or postulate that you would be outright disgusted and upset if you were to find out that somebody had had a sex change. Do you have any real world experience that posits this out look?

Or it is just something you fear happening? The likely hood of that is fairly low mind you, from just a statistical standpoint.

imagine asking about this would be highly sensitive to transgenders and offensive to naturally born women, even if I waited six months or more.

I would expect anybody you were dating to come clean about that within a short period of time if they knew that the relationship was going to get serious. Also trans-gendered people are really good at reading other people and figuring out when the right time for what is.

BUT assuming that they would not tell you for whatever reason, is a bit prejudice. It's safe the say that all the trans-gendered people I know, were very much aware of this kind of out look and made sure to choose partners that would not react that way even if they didn't know. That's just my experience.

So what I don't understand is, how then can it be my fault for what I am attracted to?

It's not.

To me it sounds like you want to be upset at another person for what you are attracted to. If you did meet a male to female transgender person and were attracted to them, enough to be intimate, I think your outlook on the whole thing would change dramatically.

Right now you would still consider them 'male' even though they've done ALL the things to become a female ( well as much as science allows), and once you actually interacted with somebody on that level, you might decide that it's not so scary and not so repulsive.

~Tenth

It depends if you are looking for love and respect or just looking for sex. Get to know the person, not just there bits and pieces, if you are so insecure about who you should love then perhaps its best you just stick to getting your hand pregnant

a reply to: tothetenthpower

Oh, it's absolutely just a fear, albeit an irrational one considering how unlikely it would be to happen just as you said. I think it's fear because I have zero problems with a female transitioning to a man.

I would expect anybody you were dating to come clean about that within a short period of time if they knew that the relationship was going to get serious. Also trans-gendered people are really good at reading other people and figuring out when the right time for what is.

BUT assuming that they would not tell you for whatever reason, is a bit prejudice. It's safe the say that all the trans-gendered people I know, were very much aware of this kind of out look and made sure to choose partners that would not react that way even if they didn't know. That's just my experience.

Okay. At first I thought you were suggesting that it's on me to find out from them, when in reality they would most likely be the ones coming clean. That makes more sense to me.

To me it sounds like you want to be upset at another person for what you are attracted to. If you did meet a male to female transgender person and were attracted to them, enough to be intimate, I think your outlook on the whole thing would change dramatically.

Right now you would still consider them 'male' even though they've done ALL the things to become a female ( well as much as science allows), and once you actually interacted with somebody on that level, you might decide that it's not so scary and not so repulsive.

I said that quote because you originally replied "You may see [their gender identity] differently, but again, not that person's fault, yours." Why is it my fault? I think you're confusing "I would be upset/repulsed if it happened to me" with "I'm upset/repulsed by transgender people." Now admittedly, I'm still young and dumb and trying to figure out what the hell "true love" really means even in gender-binary terms lol. So whatever would happen on that level is a mystical thing to me at the moment...

a reply to: solarjetman

We are made up of energy, and matter, and frequencies.

When we interact, we are interacting at those levels and certain times those energies and frequencies are drawn to each other in life and crowded rooms and stuff. This is how we all roll - on a sub-atomic level.

Being male or female and bonding accordingly with the other, the same or both is the attraction that..that energy and frequency (your energy and frequency) produces.

This is it, we are greater than the sum of our parts.

Love, no boundaries.

(Google human sexuality for further reference)

originally posted by: imod02
It depends if you are looking for love and respect or just looking for sex. Get to know the person, not just there bits and pieces, if you are so insecure about who you should love then perhaps its best you just stick to getting your hand pregnant

For the second time, this isn't about casual sex. I'm talking about even a conservative date with hand holding and a brief kiss goodnight. I would feel gross to find out the next day that the person I kissed wasn't born a woman... that's my biological disposition, not insecurity!!

When it comes to a romantic relationship, by the way, that includes love, respect AND intimacy. There is no question in my mind that I could form an incredibly loving and respecting friendship with a transgender.

a reply to: solarjetman

I did not want to suggest that you had an issue with transgender people, I'm sorry if it came across that way.

And I would suggest, that if it is a fear, and as you stated a bit irrational, maybe reach out to somebody in the transgender community if you know of any in your area. They, more than anybody would be able to alleviate your concerns and provide a little understanding about how that situation would play out.

~Tenth

OP, please do me a favor and read this thread. It long but very informative and contains the perspective one older woman of transsexual history 40 years ago and that of another born different that transitioned very young. The point of view from her mother and father are also posted in the thread. It starts picking up on page 4 and gets deeper from there.

Age 3 - Transitioning from Jack to Jackie

Also, you seem very insecure about your sexuality. How old are you? What are you so afraid of? Cooties? Women who have undergone sexual reassignment are not men physically, emotionally or psychically and their own sense of self, gender and perspective has always been female. You could have your normal hetero intercourse and not know the difference so what is your hang up exactly anyway? As one of these people you're so afraid of, I can guarantee you my former husband of 11 years was in no way gay and would probably had more than words with anyone that insinuated he was but why would anyone even think that in the first place? We were just you average normal married couple.

People like you scare me. So when you get "FURIOUS" by being "violated", however that works, do you get violent? It's nice to know I have magic powers of revulsion just by existing but it's also nice to know the men that have found me attractive that I've been intimate with have been immune to this magic power and for what it's worth, have all been heterosexual as well. What else would they be if attracted to women?

Just like the rest of the world, our sexuality is not all the same either but we are female bodied women and our relationships are no different from natal women - with men they are heterosexual. With other women, they are homosexual. Gay men and straight women have absolutely no interest in us nor us with them. We are legally female as well and face all the same things in life that other women do except getting pregnant which is something most of us wish we could do and would do if possible.

As to your gender role and behavior comments, being transsexual is something you are born with and not as a result of the environment or something in the water. All of us at some point have been urged or pushed to conform to the traditional gender roles corresponding to our birth sex and it doesn't matter or change who we are inside. What it does usually do is lead to depression, withdrawal, and suicide. Enforcement of strict gender roles and rebelling against them is also not a reason people are like this.

You acknowledge coming from a point of complete ignorance but please read the entire thread I linked above. Some of your haze on this subject will be lifted. Since you are attempting to be thoughtful and sensitive, I would be happy to answer your questions if they are of the same nature.

originally posted by: solarjetman

originally posted by: imod02
It depends if you are looking for love and respect or just looking for sex. Get to know the person, not just there bits and pieces, if you are so insecure about who you should love then perhaps its best you just stick to getting your hand pregnant

For the second time, this isn't about casual sex. I'm talking about even a conservative date with hand holding and a brief kiss goodnight. I would feel gross to find out the next day that the person I kissed wasn't born a woman... that's my biological disposition, not insecurity!!

When it comes to a romantic relationship, by the way, that includes love, respect AND intimacy. There is no question in my mind that I could form an incredibly loving and respecting friendship with a transgender.

So you would want a full CV with a full medical report before you feel ok with holding some one hand, maybe you should also ask if there are any "people of colour" in her family because to be honest it seems like the same thing. As far as you blaming your behavior on your "biological disposition" that is just bull#

I would offer some personal insight on the matter but I'm not a "real enough" woman and my in between status would obviously disgust you as you stated. I will say this though I have learned to be better woman just by observing how some of these so called natural born ladies behave. Picture any of the housewives of whatever. I also heard someone say once that "Trans women try harder at being sexy and feminine than genetic females these days and I AGREE with that. Look around at some of the "real women" you see walking around and be honest, are they even trying anymore?

After reading back over this I felt compelled to clarify that I meant that I learned how not to act, example the housewives. I despise those harpies and feel they disgrace themselves and their gender.

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
I would expect anybody you were dating to come clean about that within a short period of time if they knew that the relationship was going to get serious. Also trans-gendered people are really good at reading other people and figuring out when the right time for what is.

BUT assuming that they would not tell you for whatever reason, is a bit prejudice. It's safe the say that all the trans-gendered people I know, were very much aware of this kind of out look and made sure to choose partners that would not react that way even if they didn't know. That's just my experience.

This is so true because we don't want to be murdered. I am comfortably single now and even though this transition and changing stuff is 40 years in my past, you can't have a genuine relationship without discussing this part of your history. If someone likes and is attracted to you and gets to know who you are and you've gotten to know them, then it is usually okay but still one of the hardest and most scary conversations a person can have. I can't say that when I was young, crazy and very stupid I didn't have a few one nighters or bar hookups that I didn't say anything to but this was living very dangerously. When it comes to real relationships though, the right time to tell is always a gamble. With my husband for example we were friends first, dated for a while and fooled around bit. When we had a real relationship going and obviously caring for each other and sex was inevitable, I had "the talk" which was one of the scariest things evar. He was a kind of a macho and rugged type well built guy and 6'3" to my 5'7+" and while I was afraid of rejection, I didn't fear his reaction would be violent. I would not have come out of it too well if he had been. Things worked out.

People that are more mature and have more life experience are also more likely to be understanding or simply not care or find that it adds depth to your character.

To me it sounds like you want to be upset at another person for what you are attracted to. If you did meet a male to female transgender person and were attracted to them, enough to be intimate, I think your outlook on the whole thing would change dramatically.

Right now you would still consider them 'male' even though they've done ALL the things to become a female ( well as much as science allows), and once you actually interacted with somebody on that level, you might decide that it's not so scary and not so repulsive.

This is one of the best things I've seen you post on this subject, tenth, and so true. FWIW, I don't think I've ever made anybody be disgusted and grossed out like the OP