Two Questions for Transgender people

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: pompel9

No. I'm saying that I was born deformed. My mind does not match what I was born with. This tactic of attempting to put words in my mouth is extremely poor.

How am I putting words in your mouth? I used your words. I even quoted you. You said you were deformed at birth. If you were born a man, then it was logical to conclude that you see all men as deformed.

I think you mean to say that you felt deformed as man. Which a very different thing. Do you agree with this?

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: pompel9

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: pompel9

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: AlongCamePaul

A deformity at birth does not define us, our minds do.

I have heard this argument before. Do you really look at us men as deformed humans?

No but if you were born with a female brain in that body then you'd see it as deformed for *you* and only you.

That was not what I was asking.

It is clearly stated that being born as a man is some kind of deformity. Here is the quote again: A deformity at birth does not define us, our minds do.

So, do you Kojiro look at men as some kind of deformed human being?

The deformity which Kojiro is referring to is one which resulted in she being born transgender. That says nothing about men being considered deformed. It just means from her perspective, with her female brain, being born in a body which does not matches is a deformity.

Let's turn it around.

Suppose tomorrow you woke up with breasts and a vagina. Would you view your body as being as you felt that it should be? Would you miss anything?

How you answer those questions would have nothing to do with my next question which is: Would you then view women as being somehow deformed?

It's seems that you do not think so,

I don't. I love my father, I love my male relatives, I love my boyfriend. I do not see them as deformed. But if one of my older sisters had been born like me then yes I would feel she got a very bad deal at birth.

but I wasn't asking you nor Domo1 (sorry for not answering your post, but I found you reply confusing to say the least). I was asking Kojiro, that made that statement.
No offense intended.

I'm sure Kojiro will clarify what she meant but knowing what I know about her from our conversations here and offline, that is not what she meant.

I can't figure out how correctly use the quote function and braking it up in parts. Very confusing layout. So I will leave my reply here at the end.

That is hypothetical situation that never can happen, so I see no need to answer your first and second question.
As for your third question. I was considering not answering, but I will do it anyway.
No, I wouldn't see a woman as a deformed human being. I don't see a man as a deformed human being either. And I don't see transpeople (not sure if that is the correct word to use) as deformed human being either. All are human beings, but some alter their gender (Mostly male to female, which is odd. But that is different topic). I do not see transpeople as lesser or deformed human being, all I ask is the same courtesy is extended to me.

Would you see your sister (born male? if I understand correctly) as a deformed human being?

Actually she didn't. She accused me of putting words into her mouth.

a reply to: pompel9

That is inaccurate, and if I may say so, a deliberately obtuse way to read what was actually written.

If a person is born with a female mind, which responds to stimuli differently than a male mind would, and yet they have a male body, of course they were born deformed. A female mind belongs in a female body, and since self is centred in the mind not the surrounding flesh, it is necessary to correct that deformity.

People born with a male mind, and a male body, are not deformed by definition, because they are not born with mismatched parts.

Put another way, a Land Rover Defender with a Fiat 500 engine is deformed, and will suffer performance problems as a result. Putting a Fiat 500 body around that engine block, in place of the inappropriate Land Rover body, will improve the situation. A Land Rover with a Land Rover engine is not deformed, and requires no remedial works in that regard (although the brakes and clutch might need a slap with a hammer occasionally).

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: pompel9

That is inaccurate, and if I may say so, a deliberately obtuse way to read what was actually written.

If a person is born with a female mind, which responds to stimuli differently than a male mind would, and yet they have a male body, of course they were born deformed. A female mind belongs in a female body, and since self is centred in the mind not the surrounding flesh, it is necessary to correct that deformity.

People born with a male mind, and a male body, are not deformed by definition, because they are not born with mismatched parts.

Put another way, a Land Rover Defender with a Fiat 500 engine is deformed, and will suffer performance problems as a result. Putting a Fiat 500 body around that engine block, in place of the inappropriate Land Rover body, will improve the situation. A Land Rover with a Land Rover engine is not deformed, and requires no remedial works in that regard (although the brakes and clutch might need a slap with a hammer occasionally).

I can not read the minds of the persons that posts here or anywhere else. This is why I asked.

But instead of answering my question, I was called out as putting words into her mouth. When I actually used her own words.

How can, let's say two men be borned and one is deformed because she feels like a woman? I don't get that logic. Either all men are born deformed or none in my opinion.
And to clarify, I do agree that all that feel they are born in the wrong body, should have the chance to become the other gender if they wish. I have no problem with that whatsoever.

In my opinion transpersons feel that they are deformed. They are not actually deformed. Again, my opinion.

As for the comparison to cars, is not valid since cars are not human.

a reply to: pompel9

You have a very absolutist, either or, black and white mentality by the sounds of things. To ignore nuance is a mistake in my experience. Note, that this is not an opinion of mine, but an understanding I have come to by way of living. It is empirically tested theory, as opposed to opinion.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: pompel9

You have a very absolutist, either or, black and white mentality by the sounds of things. To ignore nuance is a mistake in my experience. Note, that this is not an opinion of mine, but an understanding I have come to by way of living. It is empirically tested theory, as opposed to opinion.

I will not take the bait.

originally posted by: JadeStar
What I can't tolerate are attempts to invalidate, dehumanize, ostracize, marginalize, demonize or brand people because of something they had no control over like ethnicity, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, national origin, mental or physical disability.

Yes. As I previously mentioned my mom was stricken with polio when I was 5. I grew up in a Friendship Club of disabled people. All types of physical disabilities.

I learned early: "People are their Heart". And raised my kids and grandkids the same way.

I remember my daughter was dating a Jewish boy. He was very concerned that it would upset me.

She told him: "If I showed up at the door with a 3 eyed, 300 pound, purple haired alien, mom would say, "are you happy?" "

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: JadeStar
What I can't tolerate are attempts to invalidate, dehumanize, ostracize, marginalize, demonize or brand people because of something they had no control over like ethnicity, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, national origin, mental or physical disability.

Yes. As I previously mentioned my mom was stricken with polio when I was 5. I grew up in a Friendship Club of disabled people. All types of physical disabilities.

I learned early: "People are their Heart". And raised my kids and grandkids the same way.

I remember my daughter was dating a Jewish boy. He was very concerned that it would upset me.

She told him: "If I showed up at the door with a 3 eyed, 300 pound, purple haired alien, mom would say, "are you happy?" "

From everything I've read from you and about your family, you truly are a great mom and great person. Your daughter is very lucky.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: pompel9

That is inaccurate, and if I may say so, a deliberately obtuse way to read what was actually written.

If a person is born with a female mind, which responds to stimuli differently than a male mind would, and yet they have a male body, of course they were born deformed. A female mind belongs in a female body, and since self is centred in the mind not the surrounding flesh, it is necessary to correct that deformity.

^^^^^^^^^^

THIS! x10000

You so get it!

And you're into metal too! (what bands? I love Nightwish, Wicked Wisdom, Dragonforce, Arch Enemy, Periphery, Straight Line Stitch, Lacuna Coil, God Forbid and Meshuggah. I also love Dream Theater - i *think* they count as metal right?)

Metal interlude....

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: pompel9
A female mind belongs in a female body, and since self is centred in the mind not the surrounding flesh

Okay, so this is what I was trying to articulate earlier, but TrueBrit certainly has a better way with words than I lol. I think this is the fundamental discrepancy between the various positions in this thread. People are either approaching it as mind determines self, or flesh determines self. Seems to me perhaps it would be an evolved way of thinking to regard one another mind-first, but we are too often wired to regard flesh first, due to part media brainwashing, part social conformity, and part primal instinct.

How do we unthread those barriers for society as a whole? Actually, that would be the key not only to what we are discussing here, but a whole SLEW of problems on the planet...

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Bayne
a reply to: Domo1

Humanity used to be pro-Transgender and Transgender people were part of everyday life, in some places this was less than 200 years ago and some it was even within living memory.

And I've heard still is in Thailand.

Samoa as well, although they define it altogether differently... Fa’afafines: The Third Gender

a reply to: pompel9

No it is not logical. I also stated my mind defines me, as opposed to what I was born with. You are very much maligning what I stated and it's frankly a poor tactic to use. Everyone else here understood what I was saying, yet you're skewing my words in an attempt to demonize me.

Somehow I don't think I've seen this topic yet so I'm a bit late to the party.

originally posted by: solarjetman
1. One argument folks generally make for LGBT rights is to let them be, they aren't bothering you, they aren't hurting you etc. which I totally understand in issues like gay marriage. They like what they like and can't help that; I get that. The thing with a transgender female (previously male), however, is, they COULD potentially hurt me as a straight male, who is attracted to women and repulsed by intimacy with men. If I dated a woman and kissed or got remotely intimate, and found out later that she had a sex change when she was 6 years old-- similar to the story currently floating around-- I would be FURIOUS to say the least. I would feel deeply violated and upset. So I guess my question is: once you go through the full transition, what comes next in terms of sexual expression? Do you look for a straight male partner (like most other women)? Because it's my biological disposition to be repulsed by the thought of intimacy with a trans woman. Just as you can't help your feelings, I can't help mine...maybe some other straight guys beg to differ, but that's how I personally am wired, end of story.

Most straight transwomen I know date, or are married to, straight men. Why would a gay man date a transwoman, anyway? Personally, I can't relate as I'm married to another woman. If she were to ever leave me and I decided to go straight, I'm pretty sure I'd tell my potential partner about my medical history.

I'd tell them for me though, not them. I wouldn't want to be with a man who would have an issue over a person's medical history. They wouldn't be worth my time or love.

originally posted by: solarjetman
2. When a two-year-old tells their parents that they feel like they're trapped inside another gender's body (which happened), could it be that perhaps society's crude gender roles need a deep examination rather than calling it an error in nature? I remember a study somewhere saying that little boys tend to actually be as emotional as little girls up until a certain age, when societal cues tell them all sorts of crap they must adhere to. I personally am equally annoyed by the hyper-masculine ideology of "manning up", sucking up emotions and never crying-- things like that-- as I am by the "girls belong in the kitchen" attitude, and strongly believe the world would be a MUCH better place if it were socially acceptable for men to feel more emotional and women to run things. In other words, if a little boy would rather play with dolls than trucks, maybe THAT should be okay and we instead break down patriarchal gender roles rather than questioning the predefined gender he associates with the most? Now, I know there's obviously much more to deciding to transition than that, but that seems to be the story that blogs and news always run with, so I'm trying to see how deep that really goes (for a two-year-old no less).

It's a balancing act. Do you scar your child for life by denying them their mental health or do you risk pushing them into a mistake?

I'd error on the side of allowing the child's expression because there's no permanent damage in doing so. As the child gets older, let things unfold organically. Fortunately, no permanent steps need to be taken until a person is much older. Going the other way (ignoring the child's condition and rebuking him or her for their behavior) can have life-long damaging affects, resulting in a lifetime of shame and pain and eventually (if they don't end their own lives) end up transitioning anyway when it's far more difficult for them to do so.

a reply to: JadeStar

Ah but the majority of Trans people are non-binary Trans and while bi-gender people can be cisnormative in both genders that still leaves a lot of people who aren't cisnormative.

It's also problematic when the notion that we are predatorily trying to get straight men to have gay sex is used as an attempt to justify murder, assault and deny basic human rights and legal equality.

That doesn't mean it can't be good for some and so good and bad. Some in the Trans sex-work industry for example have played up to that meme to help them make a living, when Trans people often struggle to get any employment at least they aren't going hungry and some like Bailey Jay who went by the name Line Trap for a lot of her early career and is now a minor celebrity in some circles especially for her podcast radio shows on several topics.

But these things are a double-edged sword and the notion that Trans people are all trying to deceive people into sex... well this thread is an example of this pervasive belief of something very unlikely to occur.

On Thailand actually the early pro-trans traditions had been wiped out, but a new period of trans-tolerance arose. But Thailand still has a lot of discrimination including in the laws. It's the reduced day to day discrimination, reduced murder and the culture of sufficient celebration to get many more people out of hiding there even when they face discrimination in national service, employment and law. And it's worth noting that in Thailand MtF Trans is widely seen and tolerated but FtM is not so.

That gives us perhaps a glimpse at the real figures of Trans though...
"The headteacher, Sitisak Sumontha, estimates that in any year between 10% and 20% of his boys consider themselves to be transgender"

"A ratio of 10% to 20% of boys calling themselves transsexual in a provincial high school does seem very high, but Mr Sitisak assured me that in his experience it was not unusual."

news.bbc.co.uk...

1 in 10 people to 1 in 5

originally posted by: solarjetman

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Bayne
a reply to: Domo1

Humanity used to be pro-Transgender and Transgender people were part of everyday life, in some places this was less than 200 years ago and some it was even within living memory.

And I've heard still is in Thailand.

Samoa as well, although they define it altogether differently... Fa’afafines: The Third Gender

Indeed and all of Polynesia once had such traditions as part of everyday life, including Hawaii.

And here is where i'd like to hear more discussion appropriate to the site. Because Trans people have traditionally been seen as closer to the spirits or gods of the worlds belief systems. Often being Shaman or priests and priestesses. A lot of modern western civilisation included attempted extermination of Transgender people and cultural relevance despite occultism often retaining notions of sacred mixing of gender.

In the myths of the Vikings Thor Odin and Loki all became Transgender in order to practice the greater magic of Seidr. In the Babylonian Talmud Abraham the father of Judaism Christianity and Islam was said to be Intersex. The nommos of mesopotamian myth cycles that many say were ancient aliens were a mixture of male and female, Ishtar was saved from the Underworld by a being both male and female made out of starlight scraped out of the sky by Marduk's red-painted fingernails and made into a being of incomparable beauty named Asu-shu-namir that rescued Ishtar and was cursed by one goddess and blessed by another for their efforts.

So the fact we need this conversation is because of how successful attempts to eradicate trans from everyday life and it's past spiritual/religious/cultural/political position but it's failure to erase it entirely. Any understanding of civilisation and the various attempts to shape it needs to have a major Transgender element and perspective.

And as a UFO witness myself i wonder if there is any higher incidence of such experiences for Transgender people.

a reply to: Bayne

TOTALLY down to change the direction of this thread (now that it's been revived, haha). There is certainly a lot of bias towards western gender definitions both in the thread and America in general (can't speak for Europe or elsewhere, but I imagine most western countries share this bias). It could only help to unthread those mental barriers to look at cultures who never had them in the first place.

a reply to: Domo1

Hiya Domo!

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: Kojiro

Are you really going to say that someone that slept with a transgender person wouldn't kill themselves out of shame, the same way a transgendered person might kill themselves because someone hurt their feelings?

I'm not sure you can compare potential years of social isolation, bullying, harassment, and elevated chances of murder with a 1 in 2500 or something chance you might sleeping with an intersex or trans person, but you've hit on something.

If transgender people could just admit that they are not the same as what they purport to be, and accept that not everyone wants to sleep with them, this whole issue wouldn't exist.

This is a societal issue, not a trans* one.

Yes, if trans* (including intersexed and the like) could simply state their situation then the 'problem' would be solved. This is nothing to do with accepting anything. Being trans* is not like having spiky hair. It's not the same as possessing a particular trait that some do not prefer, it's possessing a particular trait that some people hate. The trans* person has limited power to influence society in this regard.

Experiment. Go into a night club or bar or experiment on one of your friends. Tell them you are the opposite to the gender you present as after receiving an affirmative to go elsewhere. Do this ten or twenty times. It will suck. You may also get hit. Also it's nothing to do with sleeping with anyone, it's just day to day crap.

I transgendered person is a transgendered person, not exactly what they wish they were. They should learn to be happy in their own skin

You're filling out a form. You are not gender normative. Which box do you tick:

Male [ ]
Female [ ]

Next query. At what point do you need to inform a person?

Surgical Correction at Birth [ ]
Any Gender Variation [ ]
Only Transsexuals [ ]

At what point do you make a joke about someone wanting to be an attack helicopter?

Surgical Correction at Birth [ ]
Any Gender Variation [ ]
Only Transsexuals [ ]

I see the argument that people have to be strong in their own skin over all kinds of things from teen suicide to sexuality. Piles of things influence your mind even after development, if you're lucky enough to be genetically and socially prepared for this pressure then that's awesome. Not everyone is, and until there is a 'push this button to be someone else' button available am not going to hold that against people generally.

a reply to: Pinke

To be absolutely clear...

There is nothing wrong with identifying as an attack helicopter. I have played Just Cause 2, and let me tell you, I can see the appeal!

originally posted by: solarjetman
a reply to: honested3

Hi honested, thanks for joining the thread and adding to the discussion. I've learned quite a bit over the course of the thread, particularly with regards to question #2... there were some very heartfelt personal anecdotes from others that made it painfully obvious that this isn't caused by environmental factors. I almost feel silly I even asked, but hopefully others will have a chance to read through if they had the same question.

I'm admittedly not quite where I want to be education-wise regarding the first question. I've been trying to listen throughout the thread, but seeing that issue is still going strong over 20+ pages, let me see if I'm at least getting somewhere with this:

The thrust of this all is that a woman is NOT defined by her body, but what's between her ears (men too, for that matter). And so, when a woman gets born with a guy's body--which most of us in the thread already agreed is entirely possible-- we are STILL dealing with a woman... only with the incorrect body at birth. Science does the best it can to correct this problem, while not 100% perfect it can get close enough that even an OB/GYN doctor can't tell the difference.

I think this is the source of most of the strife in this thread. When you look at it mind-first/body-second, I can see why informing every partner seems patently ridiculous and discriminatory. If you were born with a crooked spine or deviated septum-- other examples of a "wrong body"-- and received surgery to correct it, who the hell needs to know about it?

I think most straight guys (NOT ALL!) are approaching this body-first, mind-second. If you were born with a penis that's that, and anything to hide it is deception. Perhaps adding to the confusion is the fact that some gay men are very feminine in nature, so maybe we are thinking a gay man could be so feminine that they want a new body... without even distinguishing between that and actually BEING a woman trapped in the opposite body. It's simply hard to process not being in that position ourselves.

What complicates this even more (and I effectively bowed out of these conversations) was seeing in the thread how some in different phases of transitioning and/or gender identity were in disagreement with each other.

There's a lot to learn still, but if nothing else this thread has helped me in ways I couldn't have even imagined. This is gonna make me seem REALLY immature (if I didn't blow that already haha), but it's gotten me to start looking at women for their minds MUCH more. I just met with a girl I've known for a while and could immediately feel a much better connection just reframing that thinking. So thanks for helping me grow up a little!

Hi Solar, I can tell you were legitimate about your quest for understanding so I thank you for allowing yourself to grow and I think you will arrive much sooner than most. But yes I know it becomes more complicated than even a large thread such as yours could do justice to. But yes I think the real struggle is finding priority over mind then body rather than the other way around. It is not just a 'trans problem but a Human problem in terms of trying to further answer who we are as Humans. Anyway Thanks again for the reply and you're always welcome to message me if you have questions.