Two Questions for Transgender people

originally posted by: Darth_Prime
a reply to: AlongCamePaul

You are saying that Straight Gay and Bisexual are Genders, and that is not true. agree to disagree all you want

I will agree that straight gay and bisexual are sexual orientations. if you agree that Transgenders have a higher moral responsibility than straight, gay, and bisexual people...

Deal?

a reply to: AlongCamePaul

We don't have to make a deal..Those are Sexual Orientations

Trans people have no more Moral Responsibility than anyone else

a reply to: AlongCamePaul

Ever since Bush "W" became president I began to hate the word "Moral".

Most over used and abused word to ever come out of a presidency.

Who defines Morals? You? The church? The president?

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: Annee

Do you ask a sexual interest or expect them to voluntarily reveal to you prior to sex - - if they use drugs, alcohol, have/had herpes, have a police record, a history of mental illness, etc.

I see this differently. In our culture (right or wrong) a person who goes out to a bar, and takes someone home assumes that the sex the other is presenting as (if passable) is their birth sex.

You know what "they" say about ASSume.

If you have that much of an issue with it - - - I think its your problem. I guess you can ask everyone you date. Sorry.

I married my high school boyfriend. Never had sex with anyone else. Then WHAM! I got divorced right in the middle of the Sexual Revolution. I had all kinds of experiences. If one had been a Transgender - - so what.

I guarantee you the S&M Police Detective was far more concerning to me. And NO! He did not reveal that to me prior to us getting together. Fortunately, he did honor "NO means NO".

Darth...

Fair enough...
I've said my peace.

Annee

If one person can change your perception of morality then I indeed feel bad for your moral compass.

IMHO morality is a sense of right and wrong that not everyone has.

for example my sense of morality suggest that you should be as upfront and truthful about yourself to others. It would seem not everyone shares my same sense of morality or moral code. I am ok with this because people all have their own views on whats moral and whats not.

there is no right or wrong in the world anymore only gray. Sometimes it does upset me, but then I remind myself of my personal goals and that others goals in life are way different than mine.

originally posted by: AlongCamePaul
Darth...

Fair enough...
I've said my peace.

Annee

If one person can change your perception of morality then I indeed feel bad for your moral compass.

IMHO morality is a sense of right and wrong that not everyone has.

Transgenders are not going to hurt you. But, you want to compare then to someone with HIV.

Its your own fear that is at question here.

If you are talking about a long term relationship - - and not casual sex - - everyone should be honest with their partner.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: AlongCamePaul
Darth...

Fair enough...
I've said my peace.

Annee

If one person can change your perception of morality then I indeed feel bad for your moral compass.

IMHO morality is a sense of right and wrong that not everyone has.

Transgenders are not going to hurt you. But, you want to compare then to someone with HIV.

Its your own fear that is at question here.

If you are talking about a long term relationship - - and not casual sex - - everyone should be honest with their partner.

I would argue that someone who can't be honest during casual sex couldn't be honest in a long term relationship.

My whole argument is that transgenders acknowledge that they are seen as the sex they have changed to, and that in order to have relations with one they must first be honest with their partner. Because having relations with someone when you know they think you are something that you are not is in fact deception. That is something les, gay, bi people do not have to deal with.

My argument using HIV may have been over the top, I give you that, But the principal of it is the same. Dishonesty leading to detriment, and how the government intervened in that particular case.

At the end of the day I am looking out for the interests of both parties. Because I've seen secrets unfold and truth come out and it is never pretty, by not being honest outright you are hurting yourself and the other party.

As much as you'd like to think i'm afraid of transgenders I am not I know many LBGT have had deep friendships with a few, I got the phone calls of joy and or sadness when people came out to their families, I was there when they wanted to talk about when they first found out they were different. That is why I can talk about this so objectively and not as someone who outright denies this activity, because I understand.

But I think I've said my peace, and honestly I feel the redundancy coming on.

I'm bowing out.

originally posted by: AlongCamePaul

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: AlongCamePaul
Darth...

Fair enough...
I've said my peace.

Annee

If one person can change your perception of morality then I indeed feel bad for your moral compass.

IMHO morality is a sense of right and wrong that not everyone has.

Transgenders are not going to hurt you. But, you want to compare then to someone with HIV.

Its your own fear that is at question here.

If you are talking about a long term relationship - - and not casual sex - - everyone should be honest with their partner.

I would argue that someone who can't be honest during casual sex couldn't be honest in a long term relationship.

You don't have casual sex, remember?

Sex is sex - - - its not show and tell your life story.

I would guess, that because People are People (which Transgenders are, surprise!) - - - that many (probably most) would reveal any controversial issue to their partner prior to engaging in sex.

However, YOUR expectations may not be met. Because People are People and not everyone thinks the same way you do.

originally posted by: AlongCamePaul

As much as you'd like to think i'm afraid of transgenders I am not I know many LBGT have had deep friendships with a few, I got the phone calls of joy and or sadness when people came out to their families, I was there when they wanted to talk about when they first found out they were different. That is why I can talk about this so objectively and not as someone who outright denies this activity, because I understand.

But I think I've said my peace, and honestly I feel the redundancy coming on.

I'm bowing out.

I have Gay Friends, but . . .

Where's the link to that thread?

originally posted by: AlongCamePaul

At the end of the day I am looking out for the interests of both parties. Because I've seen secrets unfold and truth come out and it is never pretty, by not being honest outright you are hurting yourself and the other party.

Here's my "moral".

I don't think anyone who's looking for a relationship should have sex with someone for a year (well, at least 6 months).

Sex gets in the way of a relationship. Take a good year to get to know someone.

After a year, if they are Transgender, you'll probably know.

a reply to: Annee

You are right I don't have casual sex. but that doesn't mean I can't argue a particular side, when I was younger I had a different girlfriend every couple of months. And though I have become more monogamous doesn't mean I haven't had multiple partners or that I don't know how it feels to be deceived during sex.

I.E. When is the last time you got tested? when is the last time you had a partner? I ask these questions because I am overprotective of my sexual health. when I was 17 I caught chlamydia from my first real girlfriend the first time I had sex with a condom!

I have gay friends and I don't need to make a thread about them... how about that?

Instead of attacking me personally, which I feel you are starting to do Annee. Introspect and retrospect.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: AlongCamePaul

At the end of the day I am looking out for the interests of both parties. Because I've seen secrets unfold and truth come out and it is never pretty, by not being honest outright you are hurting yourself and the other party.

Here's my "moral".

I don't think anyone who's looking for a relationship should have sex with someone for a year (well, at least 6 months).

Sex gets in the way of a relationship. Take a good year to get to know someone.

After a year, if they are Transgender, you'll probably know.

Here is my moral, instead of stringing someone along for a year, let them know whats up up front, and maybe they will be open to it. If not move on, instead of investing a year of false emotional connection with someone because you lied about the most basic of human attraction.

originally posted by: AlongCamePaul

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: AlongCamePaul

At the end of the day I am looking out for the interests of both parties. Because I've seen secrets unfold and truth come out and it is never pretty, by not being honest outright you are hurting yourself and the other party.

Here's my "moral".

I don't think anyone who's looking for a relationship should have sex with someone for a year (well, at least 6 months).

Sex gets in the way of a relationship. Take a good year to get to know someone.

After a year, if they are Transgender, you'll probably know.

Here is my moral, instead of stringing someone along for a year, let them know whats up up front, and maybe they will be open to it. If not move on, instead of investing a year of false emotional connection with someone because you lied about the most basic of human attraction.

Tells me exactly what you really think of Transgenders.

a reply to: AlongCamePaul

Transgenderism is not an STD. Stop comparing it to one; it's really, really offensive. You're not going to catch it by having sex with someone who transitioned.

Also, didn't you just say you were going to bow out?

a reply to: Annee

This is what I think of transgenders. They are real people with real feeling who want to be loved and accepted just like everyone else. however some of them have not accepted a true part of themselves yet, the world has not made it easy I can attest to that. They don't make it easy on others when they aren't honest.

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: AlongCamePaul

Transgenderism is not an STD. Stop comparing it to one; it's really, really offensive. You're not going to catch it by having sex with someone who transitioned.

Also, didn't you just say you were going to bow out?

If that is what you are getting out of my post you do not understand what I am saying.

a reply to: AlongCamePaul

Considering that you have used both AIDS and chlamydia as examples seems to indicate otherwise. It's effectively implying transgendered people are some kind of virulent, contagious lepers.

a reply to: Annee

You know what "they" say about ASSume.

Yes. I'm not saying that assumption is a good idea, rather that I believe the majority of people in this made up situation would have no idea that it's important to ask. I assume when I buy an apple it's not going to be a re-skinned orange. If that becomes a trend, and I'm actually aware of it, yeah I'm going to ask if the apple was an apple from birth.

If you have that much of an issue with it - - - I think its your problem. I guess you can ask everyone you date. Sorry.

So I agree that if you have a problem with it, and are aware that some people out there are not willing to be honest it's on you to ask. I'm referring to the people that are NOT aware they should ask, but would have a problem if they found out later. They don't get a say because they're not aware? This is a societal problem, but until people are aware of all the abnormalities that exist out there, and that transgender people can actually be passable underneath the underwear, it's on the trans person who is full aware of what they are, and some people's aversion to sleeping with them to inform.

Don't be sorry, I have a preference. My preference is to not sleep with someone that has a vagina crafted from their penis and testicles.

We all agree (or most of us do) that sex is not gender. You may be a female from a gender standpoint, but you are not a female from a sex standpoint if you turn your equipment into something else.

Let's say I'm in love with a certain body style of classic car and I'm a collector. I see a gorgeous example of that car, it's the color I want, it's got the engine I want. For all intents and purposes it's my dream car, it's even got matching numbers! I buy it at the price I think it's worth with matching numbers. I then find out someone had sanded off the numbers and replaced them because they weren't an actual match. Same engine size (just not original), same power, looks the same, drives the same... I would have been a victim of fraud.

There seem to be two arguments. The first being that a transgendered person is the same as a cisgendered person. That is patently false. They are not the same. They may have the same brain chemistry and structure, but one was born with a vagina, and one had their sex organs turned into a vagina. The second is that if you can't tell, there shouldn't be an issue. If I go into a store that's reputable (looks legit) and but a TV, I expect that TV to be from the manufacturer it purports to be made by. I don't want a clone. I want the real deal, even if the fake one performs better. Let's say I just want to support a certain manufacturer because I've built up a loyalty. That should be MY choice. Yes I'm assuming, but I don't have time to go to school and get an engineering degree so that I can tell the difference, and I shouldn't have to. I also don't have to, because that is fraud. I shouldn't have to get blood samples and wait for lab results. If a transgender person is actually passable, they should inform their potential partner that their vagina or penis is not something they were born with, but cobbled together with existing flesh. Not doing so is false advertising

Lets discuss another scenario, we keep focusing on a transwoman and a man. Let's say there is a woman that want's to have sex with what she believes is a man. Instead, a foreign object is inserted. One that may feel great, but isn't the real deal. Let's say she's a virgin or for some reason can't tell the difference. Is that OK?

Sex is an intimate thing, even when it's not. There is a level of trust that people give each other. Part of that is not rubbing intimate parts together that were created by someone else without being made aware.

I guarantee you the S&M Police Detective was far more concerning to me. And NO! He did not reveal that to me prior to us getting together. Fortunately, he did honor "NO means NO".

Not disclosing a kink is very different than not disclosing a sex change. It sounds like this gentleman brought it up, you said no, and he respected it. That's what I expect from transgender people (and I believe the majority actually agree with me and are wonderful people). Just some common decency. Yes, it's a wildly different situation, and can be dangerous for the transgender person (which is an incredibly crappy deal). That potential danger does not mean they shouldn't be honest and respect the wishes of a potential partner. Saying that it's OK not to mention it is like saying they should have to because otherwise they might get killed. That shouldn't come into play from an ethical standpoint. I don't think a reasonable person would say that if a transgendered person doesn't come clean they deserve to be physically assaulted or killed, just as I don't think a reasonable person thinks just because someone can't tell the difference they shouldn't be informed. If they have such a problem with it they should ask... No, because there are still way too many people out there that do have a problem with it and don't know enough about the current state of affairs to ask.

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: AlongCamePaul

Considering that you have used both AIDS and chlamydia as examples seems to indicate otherwise. It's effectively implying transgendered people are some kind of virulent, contagious lepers.

I used HIV's example as to how the government forces people to be open about their status.

I used Chlamydia from a personal experience to show how being truthful about your status is the most important thing to me because I have been deceived.

Both are comparable to the moral debate about whether or not you should be open about your transexuality before sex.

If you can't understand that I don't know what else to say.

originally posted by: AlongCamePaul

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: AlongCamePaul

Considering that you have used both AIDS and chlamydia as examples seems to indicate otherwise. It's effectively implying transgendered people are some kind of virulent, contagious lepers.

I used HIV's example as to how the government forces people to be open about their status.

HIV is a life threatening disease, that why it's regulated the way it is. Your life is not at risk by having sex with someone who is transgendered. It's a terrible comparison, and abhorrently fascist. There's more of a argument that transphobes like yourself are actually life-threatening, ergo the government should force you to identify yourselves.

I used Chlamydia from a personal experience to show how being truthful about your status is the most important thing to me because I have been deceived.

And again, chlamydia is yet another condition that causes physical harm. Including blindness. No one has ever gone blind from having sex with a woman born with male genitalia, regardless what that old wive's tale about masturbation would have you believe.

Transgendered men and women do not have cooties. This is not preschool.

Both are comparable to the moral debate about whether or not you should be open about your transexuality before sex.

No, they're not even close to being comparable. They are ridiculous hyperbole.