Two Questions for Transgender people

originally posted by: JuJuBee
]1. THEY ARE hurting people; especially those that are opposed to it. See, here's the thing. If you want to be gay, don't FORCE people to "learn" your ways. That's YOUR thing. My child doesn't need to be "educated", regarding your homosexual fetish. My child doesn't need to learn the reason why you are the way you are. My child doesn't need to "celebrate" your cause. When you start forcing your lifestyle on my family, that's when we have problems. (i use the word "you", in general form, not personal form)

Astounding!

2. A two year old, feeling trapped in another gender's body? Did you really say that? A two year old barely knows how to speak properly, let alone know who he/she is. They no nothing about their "gender" or their private parts. A two year old knows nothing about a penis or vagina, so how would they know they're trapped inside another gender's body? They probably distinguish each other by facial features, hair styles, clothes, and even the toys a 2 year old would normally play with.

A two year old knows nothing about their "sexuality". They don't learn those things until they enter indoctrination centers, called "school", around age 5. That's when the seeds are planted.

It is generally understood that a child's awareness of and establishment of their own sense of gender solidifies around age 3. This has nothing to do with "sexuality". By age 5, core gender identity is well past the age of "seed planting". Ask any of us born physically male that have gone on to live as and become women - we'll tell you exactly what we knew at 5 and how no amount of external programming or indoctrination did jack squat to convince us otherwise.

Now, give 4 years worth of constant bombardment of "gayness" and tah-dah, your "straight child" is now beginning to question his/her gender.

It doesn't work this way. You are so woefully under informed. What does "gayness" have to do with gender anyway?

However, the parent never made their child feel comfortable in their own skin, at an early age.

Again, another misconception.

i.e. My daughter is very boyish and i give her that space. HOWEVER, i DO REMIND HER, she IS a GIRL! Even when her "boy" friends tease her because she plays like them, i REMIND HER, "You are still a little girl!" I also add, "they just hating on you because you're better than them. Boys don't like that sh!t, little girl! jajajjaja"

How old is you daughter? What if she comes to you and says she should have been a boy and wants to become one? What if she turns out to be a lesbian? Should this be the case, I feel very sorry for what your attitudes will do to them.

Don't let the seeds planted in the indoctrination centers keep growing! Uproot them IMMEDIATELY, otherwise your child will be questioning their sexuality; which should never be questioned; unless you're a hermaphrodite.

I'll just let that one speak for itself.

a reply to: JuJuBee

And JuJuBee is a Drag Queens name that is Fabulous...i hate for it to be associated with such ignorance

1. THEY ARE hurting people; especially those that are opposed to it. See, here's the thing. If you want to be gay, don't FORCE people to "learn" your ways. That's YOUR thing. My child doesn't need to be "educated", regarding your homosexual fetish. My child doesn't need to learn the reason why you are the way you are. My child doesn't need to "celebrate" your cause. When you start forcing your lifestyle on my family, that's when we have problems. (i use the word "you", in general form, not personal form)

First it's not a fetish, research and education about things you want to slander are a better option than just sounding ignorant

Well, what about people force Religion on people that causes harm and affects other peoples lives?

exactly who is forcing your Child? who is forcing you? who is forcing anyone?


Sorry, not sorry but we are going to Live and be expressive and exist in this world, we are going to fight for our Rights and Equality, and we are going to talk about issues so maybe we can not have to worry about Death and Abuse and Bullying and discrimination, and everything else people do to 'Hurt' us


You can't Gender police, and you can't tell a Child "How" their Gender is or should be,no matter how much you try and Brainwash them into being the Gender you want, their Authentic Gender is all how they are born. there have been studies that Children start identifying gender around the age of 4.

a reply to: TrappedPrincess

Ignoring the current bigot of the week (as the others seem to have them well in hand), I'll reply to you. Congratulations on reaching a point where you feel comfortable with your body. I wish you all of the best luck and happiness.

Unfortunately, I am not comfortable with mine, and until I reach the point that I am, I will always consider it deformed. That's just how I see it.

a reply to: JuJuBee

Hi JuJuBee, thanks for joining in.

I know this thread got pretty long, but you should read through at least the first several pages (and the referenced thread at the end of the first page)... there's tons of info, and especially look at some of posts about firsthand experience-- it is quite detailed and will probably radically change your understanding of this stuff. I know it did for me!

originally posted by: JuJuBee
a reply to: solarjetman

One argument folks generally make for LGBT rights is to let them be, they aren't bothering you, they aren't hurting you etc.

1. THEY ARE hurting people; especially those that are opposed to it. See, here's the thing. If you want to be gay, don't FORCE people to "learn" your ways. That's YOUR thing. My child doesn't need to be "educated", regarding your homosexual fetish. My child doesn't need to learn the reason why you are the way you are. My child doesn't need to "celebrate" your cause. When you start forcing your lifestyle on my family, that's when we have problems. (i use the word "you", in general form, not personal form)

When a two-year-old tells their parents that they feel like they're trapped inside another gender's body

2. A two year old, feeling trapped in another gender's body? Did you really say that? A two year old barely knows how to speak properly, let alone know who he/she is. They no nothing about their "gender" or their private parts. A two year old knows nothing about a penis or vagina, so how would they know they're trapped inside another gender's body? They probably distinguish each other by facial features, hair styles, clothes, and even the toys a 2 year old would normally play with.

A two year old knows nothing about their "sexuality". They don't learn those things until they enter indoctrination centers, called "school", around age 5. That's when the seeds are planted. Now, give 4 years worth of constant bombardment of "gayness" and tah-dah, your "straight child" is now beginning to question his/her gender.

The problem is this: we are teaching our children the wrong message. Males have "female" in them; and females have "male" in them. Some men are more feminine and some woman are more masculine; this is TRUE! However, the parent never made their child feel comfortable in their own skin, at an early age.

i.e. My daughter is very boyish and i give her that space. HOWEVER, i DO REMIND HER, she IS a GIRL! Even when her "boy" friends tease her because she plays like them, i REMIND HER, "You are still a little girl!" I also add, "they just hating on you because you're better than them. Boys don't like that sh!t, little girl! jajajjaja"

Don't let the seeds planted in the indoctrination centers keep growing! Uproot them IMMEDIATELY, otherwise your child will be questioning their sexuality; which should never be questioned; unless you're a hermaphrodite.

Hmm, I suggest working on your skills of empathy and thinking of yourself in other's shoes. You seem to be very knowledgeable as a non-trans person on what a trans person thinks and feels. Am I allowed to assume the same things about someone like you who is non-trans even though I have no idea what that is like? I mean are you really sure you're not trans? How could you have known as a child something like that?

I am also tired of your non-trans world and ideas being pushed on me and my children, I don't care if you aren't hurting anybody else but for you to choose to be straight and non-trans is just disgusting to me and my religious beliefs.

Are you able for only a brief moment able to see truly how something like that feels?

originally posted by: JuJuBee
a reply to: solarjetman

THEY ARE hurting people; especially those that are opposed to it. See, here's the thing. If you want to be gay, don't FORCE people to "learn" your ways. That's YOUR thing. My child doesn't need to be "educated", regarding your homosexual fetish. My child doesn't need to learn the reason why you are the way you are. My child doesn't need to "celebrate" your cause. When you start forcing your lifestyle on my family, that's when we have problems. (i use the word "you", in general form, not personal form)

Learning things that are not harmful to learn is not in any way hurting. And your child will have classmates who are Transgender. If you have failed your duty as a parent because others failed to teach you about Transgender because generations ago some people decided to be really evil and try and exterminate Transgender people then it's the job of the school to protect those Transgende children from the bullying that comes from ignorance. There is No Death Toll from learning about Transgender. Not one single death compared to 3% of schoolkids suffering a bullying-induced attempted suicide rate of 38%. So there is No Death Toll vs A Big Death Toll.

Now you cannot weigh your discomfort or opinion against the lives of those children. You will never have a case or even the ghost of a case till there is a death toll almost the same or greater for the non-transgender kids caused by the transgender ones, which there isn't because this saves lives without costing any.

I'll be blunt. You are asking us to allow the slaughter-by-bullying of children to continue, because you would rather your children not know something.. even when it may be your child who in that ignorance bullies a classmate to death? That your child might not even know that what they are saying is bullying because you did not want them to know the truth? Do you really put the LIVES of children as being of less value that being able to keep facts away from your child even if those facts are needed to stop your child inadvertently murdering a classmate?

2. A two year old, feeling trapped in another gender's body? Did you really say that? A two year old barely knows how to speak properly, let alone know who he/she is. They no nothing about their "gender" or their private parts. A two year old knows nothing about a penis or vagina, so how would they know they're trapped inside another gender's body? They probably distinguish each other by facial features, hair styles, clothes, and even the toys a 2 year old would normally play with.

Instead of making things up try looking them up. The neurological evidence supports that Gender Identity is hard-wired in the brain not just in the womb but at a very early stage of fetus development. It is only the awareness of it that grows over time.

A two year old knows nothing about their "sexuality". They don't learn those things until they enter indoctrination centers, called "school", around age 5. That's when the seeds are planted. Now, give 4 years worth of constant bombardment of "gayness" and tah-dah, your "straight child" is now beginning to question his/her gender.

So there were no gay people before homosexuality got mentioned in schools? All the gay people who grew up when it was a taboo and a crime to be gay are lying as are all the scientists and doctors who worked on it? Well lets entertain that possibility a moment... children who grow up to be gays and lesbians have a FAR higher incidence of gender-diverse expression and behaviour. Gays and Lesbians show cross-sex neurology both in structure and brain activity. If your argument is correct then many of those kids aren't Gay but they would be Transgender instead.

Besides.... why are you arguing about SEXUALITY in a topic about TRANSGENDER? While there is an overlap population as i've just made plain still it's a seperate subject. Gender in kids then suddenly you are on about TEH GAYZ!!! Look if you are one of the 83% of homophobes who are actually bisexual or homosexual struggling with dealing with your own repressed sexuality then go to a therapist, and if you are one of the remaining 17% who aren't that's still a separate subject. If you want to understand Transgender you don't need to talk about Gays at all.

The problem is this: we are teaching our children the wrong message. Males have "female" in them; and females have "male" in them. Some men are more feminine and some woman are more masculine; this is TRUE! However, the parent never made their child feel comfortable in their own skin, at an early age.

No-one is making them do that. The kids who are already uncomfortable in their skin are being less abused by people scared of treating them decently. The rest learn that it's ok to be any point on the Gender Spectrum. It's not all about the 1 in 500 people that will surgically transition. It's about the 3%+ who in some way fit in the Transgender Spectrum most of who will not use any medical transition options.

i.e. My daughter is very boyish and i give her that space. HOWEVER, i DO REMIND HER, she IS a GIRL! Even when her "boy" friends tease her because she plays like them, i REMIND HER, "You are still a little girl!" I also add, "they just hating on you because you're better than them. Boys don't like that sh!t, little girl! jajajjaja"

Which is great. So long as she's not of the small minority who may kill themselves because you did that. Most masculine girls will be fine with what you are doing. If however it is vital for her that you recognise her gender identity as being male then you just massively increased her odds of suicide. If on the other hand you pointed out that Girls can be just as masculine as she is without insisting that she is a girl, so that if she actually has always identified as a boy she would feel safe enough to tell you without fear that you would reject it. So you could still encourage her to accept her non-steretypical gender behaviour and feel ok with identifying as a girl without the risk of killing her if she identifies as a boy.

Don't let the seeds planted in the indoctrination centers keep growing! Uproot them IMMEDIATELY, otherwise your child will be questioning their sexuality; which should never be questioned; unless you're a hermaphrodite.

Do you want the death of children on your conscience? I ask you this seriously. Without exaggeration or hyperbole.
How many children are at your daughters school? Divide that by 100 then times the result by 3. That's how many kids at that school are probably Transgender or so gender-questioning as to be equally at risk of death. There is also a 3% chance your own child is one of them. Then add to that a further 1% for the approximation of the kids who are Intersex, the ones whose bodies not just brains are a mixture of male and female traits whether what they used to call hermaphrodites, or kids with CAIS and PAIS like several women athletes were discovered to be or many other ways a person can be born of mixed physical traits.

a reply to: JuJuBee

This isn't caused by schools. You can't Teach or Force someone to be Transgender. Look up the tragic Reimer case. a Botched circumcision resulted in a baby without a penis. So the doctor thought 'make the boy a girl and they can have the closest to a normal life'. So they raised that baby as a girl. But even as a baby he rejected it. As a toddler, rejected it. As a child rejected it, as a teen rejected it. And eventually they found out the truth, struggled with depression for several years then killed themselves. Because gender identity is hard-wired. They TRIED to make a baby change sex and they COULDN'T.

So when you play lets-pretend and claim this is indoctrination you are just making up a lie for yourself because you aren't comfortable with the obvious demonstrable truth that gender is hard-wired and transgender people are an example of that.

Now what i want to know is, WHY? Why are you uncomfortable with a fact of nature? As a conservative politician said when we raised these issues with him "Well i'm a farmer, so i have seen that in Cattle and in Sheep". So if a conservative politician knew this because he'd seen it in animals in his life on the farm why is it an issue for you?

Why are you willing to risk the LIVES of children, possibly even your own, because of that discomfort? Why does it matter so very much to you that you'd rather Kids Die?

What's the source of the discomfort?
Is it because it seems alien to you because of the generations of extermination and suppression so you grew up not seeing it?
Is it just learned bigotry that you grew up being told this was wrong and believed it instead of learning the truth?
Is it like with most Homophobes that you find it attractive but feel disgusted with yourself for doing so because you were taught it's wrong by people (who themselves were wrong)?
Or have you your own Gender Discomfort that you've been suppressing your whole life yourself?
Or is there some other reason that you value your discomfort over the LIVES of children?

a reply to: Kojiro

There's no way you'd be able to tell most post-op transwomen from genetic females if you picked them up in a club and had sex with them.

My brain is blown by that statement.
I am speechless, no disrespect, rudeness or crudeness implied, but has this theory been fully tested ?

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

It's not a theory. It's based on every testimony I've heard. Men typically cannot tell the difference, as the surgery allows for the full range of female functionality up to and including secretions. Hell, later in this thread, after I posted that, it's stated that the surgery is so good, even OB/GYNs can be fooled. If the surgery is good enough to convince a trained medical doctor, what chance does a layman have at telling the difference?

a reply to: Kojiro

Woah, ignorant me, I had no clue.

But I question the morality of tricking a person and not telling them for a LTR.

Edit: Oh I just thought of guys going to Thailand for a sex vacation.

Duh !!!

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

It's not deliberately "tricking" them. As I and others have repeatedly pointed out that transgendered women face a constant potential risk of becoming the victim of a violent encounter, thus disclosing to everyone we'd meet, even in casual sexual encounters isn't always a wise course, because the next moment some cop could be fishing our body out of a river. The morality of the right to survival outweighs the morality of being potentially murdered by a bigot.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: Kojiro

There's no way you'd be able to tell most post-op transwomen from genetic females if you picked them up in a club and had sex with them.

My brain is blown by that statement.
I am speechless, no disrespect, rudeness or crudeness implied, but has this theory been fully tested ?

As a scientist I like to test theories. This is beyond theory. And yes I tested it. That is all I will say. Additionally, my GYN didn't know. I had to tell her.

So um...$30K is money well spent.

a reply to: Kojiro

Sounds really scary.

But still you just never know how a guy is going to react to finding out, from meh...whatever- to "Hulk" level anger where he loses control. He himself might not even know how he would react, some people are not prone to anger, but a few rare things just send them bonkers, they don't even know the triggers until it happens.

I'm going to switch gears a bit and throw something out a little different to think of here that may go back to some of the OP's original questioning? I decided to post this for more insight into the lives some of us lead and to pose the question, what would you have done?

I tried to find a boy picture that would be somewhat representative of how androgynous I had become by my last year in high school. I'm not a fashion model and not this pretty but this is fairly close except my hair was almost to my waist by then. This is male fashion model Andrej Pejic before he became Andreja. I see a lot of myself there.

Now I don't know anything about this person in terms of personality and mannerisms but I do know what I was like and what most people thought of and said to me - pervert, faggot, queer, homo. girl and a lot of things that would violate the T&C's. Political correctness or the concept of bullying hadn't been invented yet. I didn't arrive at this look overnight. It just sort of happened. I had always had long hair after the trauma a GI Joe haircut caused me when I was around eight. By 7th grade, it was well beyond shoulder length and when I was effectively expelled from school until cut, my parents threatened legal action against the school district and they backed down. I was naturally shy, quiet, very sensitive and feminine enough to get beat up for it in grade school and high school by groups of boys. What makes this even more confusing was I consciously trying not to be this way and my parents certainly did their best to help with a lot of "coaching" and being adamant about the kind of clothes I could wear. Behavior and interests were something their efforts didn't do a darn thing to change and I was given a lot of flexibility at home. I was just who I was. (and still am)

When they did give up with all this "helpful guidance" after my junior year, I gave up trying to be masculine which was just a cultivated and manufactured front not convincing anyone anyway and while I still couldn't wear overtly girls clothes, I sure as hell didn't wear overtly boy clothing either and things couldn't have been made any worse at school since everyone already thought I was some kind of queer freak, so why try, right? Some of my teachers even made rude comments and teased me. I was completely socially isolated and withdrawn and the one friend I did have quit hanging out with me because her boyfriend thought I was a fag. There was a group of gay guys known around school but they were as unfriendly toward me as everyone else and I had nothing in common with them anyway. I think I embarrassed even them? This stage of my life wasn't all happy and good times and I carried around a lot of twisted crap in my head. (Hey Jade, see what fun you missed?)

So, now let's examine my "transition" if you can call it that? After school was out, I did start dressing more the way that felt right, using a little discrete make up from time to time and doing different things with my hair. At a tad over five foot seven and a half and about 130 pounds then about the only thing not transitioned was my name and formal family announcement and that came just before Christmas the year I got out of high school. By the following March (1974), I had begun HRT and gotten a more appropriate driver's license. This was more of a merge or blend rather than being something one day and something else the next. Nobody was too shocked or particularly surprised.

This is my key point and my question is, if I un-transitioned or never did, what would I have been going back to? Someone sexually ambiguous and difficult for strangers to determine my gender? Been there, done that but it tended to be unpredictable and scary. Should I have lived a life of being ridiculed and called names constantly in fear of potential of violence against me? This would have not been a situation very conducive to a well adjusted healthy life. Fortunately, it didn't take much to be able to blend into society and be something fairly close to normal. There were some issues still remaining in the way of a completely normal life and relationships that for reasons of finances and logistics, took a couple more years to get taken care of which I finally did when I was 22. Do you think all this was a matter of choice or that there were better options? Sure didn't seem like it. It's just how I turned out.

While searching for the above picture, I came across this one. The vibe or attitude or something about the look jumped out at me as very familiar. Other than not being this model model pretty, It reminds me of me a lot of when i was 20-21. I do have blue eyes though! This is Andreja Pejic, the same person as above. It's also true blondes have more fun!

After sitting here and reading all the back and forth about "to disclose or not disclose" I must say that I am a bit conflicted. On the one hand I believe that it is the right thing for us to do prior to any sex or serious relationship, definitely not on the first date and certainly not upon first meeting. I do however understand some T-womens fear and reluctance to do so as the male's reaction could be explosive and violent. In that regard though I would ask if you truly thought there was even a remote chance that the male would act that way is he someone you really want to be with?

This is why it is important to feel out and vet any potential mate, find out if they are a gentle soul or a raging meathead. If you feel like they may be the type that would be violent perhaps you could inform them in a public place with witnesses. You could also keep a weapon or self defense item like pepper spray handy and readily accessible should they become violent. If they react negatively and threaten to get you later, then record them saying so and take it to the authorities.

I just really do feel like disclosing is the right thing to do and that it is not right to hide behind fear as an excuse to not do so as their are plenty of ways to mitigate potential danger. I mostly feel this way because I fully understand that honesty is one of the most important keys to any relationship and if you really like the potential mate wouldn't you want to be honest with them?

I'm not passing judgement on anyone who has or will be discreet about their origins, I'm just saying that it is not for me and their are ways to protect yourself while doing the right thing. Their are also certain things about who I am that make me pretty confident that anyone who knew who I am or where I come from would be very reluctant to get violent with me, it would just end bad for everyone.

Anyway, ladies do you and just be safe about it.

a reply to: TrappedPrincess

Ronda is that you ?

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess
After sitting here and reading all the back and forth about "to disclose or not disclose" I must say that I am a bit conflicted. On the one hand I believe that it is the right thing for us to do prior to any sex or serious relationship, definitely not on the first date and certainly not upon first meeting. I do however understand some T-womens fear and reluctance to do so as the male's reaction could be explosive and violent. In that regard though I would ask if you truly thought there was even a remote chance that the male would act that way is he someone you really want to be with?

"Disclosure" - The aliens have landed and we are them!

Seriously, if we take the whole trans* crap out and when/what to tell out of this for a minute, being cautious, smart and safe and spending some time getting to know someone is good advice for your daughters and all girls and women. Yeah, the trans* thing turns the danger level up to 11 but it's not like other women don't need to be careful too especially in this day of Internet dating and hookups. Good general advice there, TP.

I've heard it from others who were told the same thing and from my own SRS surgeon, I was urged not to be promiscuous and be careful. Everyone is from different backgrounds and moralities but in the late '70's and '80's popular bars and nightclubs were little more than meat markets with alcohol or if you were part of the in crowd, alcohol and blow and a lot of stuff "happened". I was still fairly shy and quiet and hadn't automatically become a social butterfly but was reasonably attractive, a bit trashy/sexy, loved to party and had plenty of opportunities for getting laid but for the most part was a nice girl. If it wasn't for all this disclosure stuff and a little distrust or fear of most men in the first place, I would have slept around a lot more than I did. Can I say there weren't a few drunken coked or tripped out times I didn't have a casual one night sort of encounter when I didn't say anything? No but only just a couple because that was just kind of a thing then and sex was easy but I quickly learned to have a little more respect for myself and worked more toward relationships which did involve having "the talk". There's a fair amount of outright rejection involved in this and I remember one guy did get a little mouthy but fortunately never ran into hostility or violence although I always felt the potential was there and still is.

I've lived alone and been uninvolved the last six years and that's unlikely to change mostly due to having to go through the whole spiel about something from 40 years ago and just not wanting to deal with it. I drive a 33 year old car and tinker on it a bit myself to keep it running and have been in the corner auto parts store 3 or 4 times in the last few months where this older good looking tattoo sleeved big bear of a guy has gotten fairly dang flirty and I've thought about it but nah, not worth the hassle.

I do think I might need to go get an air filter or spring or something though?

originally posted by: EKron

"Disclosure" - The aliens have landed and we in the late '70's and '80's popular bars and nightclubs were little more than meat markets with alcohol or if you were part of the in crowd, alcohol and blow and a lot of stuff "happened".

Ha Ha Ha, I remember reading Chelsea Handler's book and thinking: "Yeah, but that was "everyone" in that period of time. You're just the only one who laid it out in print".

I mean, how many houses did you go to where there was nothing but mattresses on the floor?

a reply to: Annee

I have no idea what it is like out there today and am probably glad I don't but it is unlikely that things will ever be like they were during those times. All I can say is we've seen and lived through some very interesting days.

I just wanted to thank you Ekron for sharing more of your personal backstory with ATS now. I can totally imagine you in your teens and at my age now. That's why i posted that one girl in the t-shirt with the blond hair. I thought you probably kinda looked like her back then.

You have lived quite the life and I am glad that you are sharing it with us

*hug*