NLBS #48: The United States Is Not, And Never Was, A Christian Nation

originally posted by: Plotus
Let me humbly set you straight....

www.youtube.com...

Was that pun intended???

The separation of church and state was in direct response to the Church of England. A state sponsored religion. Sodomy laws, which religion was against it in the USA in the 1600's? How many different religions were there that was influencing the enactment of laws at that time period? You can not look at history through the lens of current additudes.

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: guitarplayer
Look at the sodomy laws and tell me which belief system they were inspired under?

Christianity isn't the only Religion that outlaws sodomy first of all so let's not imply that such a law was exclusive to Christianity.

However, sodomy laws in the west were derived from Christian morality most likely but that doesn't mean that one law thereby makes this a Christian nation. Nobody denies that many of the first Americans were Christians of some type. Obviously there was indeed some Christian influence as well. This isn't in dispute. But there is a difference between being influenced by your beliefs and a Government Established National Religion.

If their intention to Establish Christianity as the Religion for America don't you think they would have made that clear at some point???

Don't you think that one of these men as smart and careful as they were with the wording of this document might have said, "Hey fellas, ya think we should mention that we want Christianity as our Religion for this new country we are starting so it's clear and understood??"

How does it make sense that they would think to themselves, "This is a Christian Nation" while at the same time write about a separation of Church and State and no laws respecting a religion??? That would have been a clear contradiction that I'm sure one of them would have noticed.

They used a generic reference to God. Not Allah, not Jesus, not Grand Pooba, not Buddha, not Brahman, etc. Just generic old God or Creator. Plus like I said already, find out how many of them were also FreeMasons. Then read a little about what Masons thought of a higher power. Pay attention to their non-specific allowance for exactly The Great Architect might be. It's one thing to promote the idea of a higher power and yet another to demand that the Higher Power be Jesus the Christ our Lord and Savior bla bla bla.....

They were not specific for a reason.

originally posted by: guitarplayer
You all may want to look the preambles of the states constitutions. I do beleive that all 50 of them mention God, Almighty God ect.

Alabama, 1865, Preamble

We, the people of the State of Alabama... invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following constitution...

Alaska, 1959, Preamble

We the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land... do ordain and establish this constitution for the State of Alaska.

Arizona, 1911, Preamble

We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution.

Arkansas, 1874, Preamble

We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government, for our civil and religious liberty... do ordain and establish this Constitution.

California, 1849, Preamble

We, the people of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom in order to secure its blessings, do establish this Constitution.

Colorado, 1876, Preamble

We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe... do ordain and establish this constitution for the "State of Colorado."

Connecticut, 1818, Preamble

The people of Connecticut acknowledging with gratitude, the good providence of God, in having permitted them to enjoy a free government; do... ordain and establish the following constitution and form of civil government.

Delaware, 1897, Preamble

Through Divine goodness, all men have by nature the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences....

Florida, 1885, Preamble

We, the people of the State of Florida, being grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty... do ordain and establish this constitution.

Georgia, 1777, Preamble

...we the people of Georgia, relying upon the protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution.

Hawaii, 1959, Preamble

We, the people of Hawaii, grateful for Divine Guidance... do hereby ordain and establish this constitution for the State of Hawaii.

Idaho, 1890, Preamble

We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and promote our common welfare do establish this Constitution.

Illinois, 1848 Preamble

We, the people of the State of Illinois-grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He has permitted us to enjoy and seeking His blessing upon our endeavors... do ordain and establish this Constitution for the State of Illinois.

Indiana, 1851, Preamble

...We, the people of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to choose our own form of government, do ordain this Constitution.

Iowa, 1846, Preamble

We, the people of the State of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuance of those blessings, do ordain and establish a free and independent government...

Kansas, 1859, Preamble

We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges, in order to insure the full enjoyment of our rights as American citizens, do ordain and establish this constitution of the State of Kansas...

www.hismenrevealed.com...
a reply to: theNLBS

God was added to the pledge of allegiance during the cold war to rile patriotism. Ever read the federalist papers? Not only did they dedicate pages to warn of dangers from central banks, they also made it perfectly clear god was to stay FAR FAR away from the government.

a reply to: Plotus

I see your Armageddon and raise you two Ragnaröks.

I will agree with you on that point that the USA is no longer a Christian nation.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: guitarplayer

And these senators where there when every state setup their constitutions? Just because some later senators denigh what others have done or said before is what... you beleive and trust the government when it says something?

Did you not watch the video? Did you forget what was said in the video? Are you trying you arguing aginst this being a Christian nation? I would agree on that last part if you are.

However, I believe you are trying to argue for one and have not realized you just made an argument against one.

The treaty of tripoli was signed on November 4, 1796, then ratified unanimously January 3, 1797. The later senators were the ones involved in setting up state constitutions. You do not get a better opinion of what the country stands for from later senators you do get it from the founding fathers.

To be clear the senate voted unanimously on it in 1797 the state constitutions per your post were on 1865, 1959, 1911, 1874, 1849, 1876, 1818, 1897, 1885, 1959, 1890, 1848, 1851, 1846, 1859, the only state that put god in their preamble before the Treaty of Tripoli was Georgia in 1777.

I suggest Georgia may be a Christian state going by that, but this is not a Christian country.

originally posted by: Plotus
Let me humbly set you straight....

www.youtube.com...

thank you can I use it

youtu.be...




"The propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained."

-- George Washington, 1789

originally posted by: guitarplayer
Sodomy laws, which religion was against it in the USA in the 1600's? How many different religions were there that was influencing the enactment of laws at that time period? You can not look at history through the lens of current additudes.

Did you even read what I wrote??? I'll say it again real slow so you don't miss it this time.

Sodomy laws in the west came from Religious Christian Ideals and Morality.

I made it bold too so it's real easy to see this time. I'm not disputing that Christian Influence wasn't present. Of course it was. Christian and Catholic Religion was very dominate in the day in various forms. We also know that the founders were also deists or even Christians themselves. That doesn't mean they decided to create a Christian Nation. Some of their Social Principles may have also been influenced by their own personal beliefs, this is also quite clear.

But you seem to think that means they were Creating a Christian Nation because of it. It doesn't. Otherwise they would have stated that very clearly wouldn't they???

Do they use the term "Christian" or "Christ" in the founding documents??? How about "Jesus"??? Yahweh maybe??? How about "Son of God" even??? Did they mention the Ten Commandments??? Any of those things???

a reply to: Stormdancer777

I love it when those guys get all preachy!!

It's so darn exciting I almost forget I'm listening to a self righteous maniacal sociopath that thinks they speak on behalf of the Creator of the Universe.

Most of our laws at the time came from England common law which was bibe based. Your bring up laws in the west I thought we were talking about the founding of the USA.

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: guitarplayer
Sodomy laws, which religion was against it in the USA in the 1600's? How many different religions were there that was influencing the enactment of laws at that time period? You can not look at history through the lens of current additudes.

Did you even read what I wrote??? I'll say it again real slow so you don't miss it this time.

Sodomy laws in the west came from Religious Christian Ideals and Morality.

I made it bold too so it's real easy to see this time. I'm not disputing that Christian Influence wasn't present. Of course it was. Christian and Catholic Religion was very dominate in the day in various forms. We also know that the founders were also deists or even Christians themselves. That doesn't mean they decided to create a Christian Nation. Some of their Social Principles may have also been influenced by their own personal beliefs, this is also quite clear.

But you seem to think that means they were Creating a Christian Nation because of it. It doesn't. Otherwise they would have stated that very clearly wouldn't they???

Do they use the term "Christian" or "Christ" in the founding documents??? How about "Jesus"??? Yahweh maybe??? How about "Son of God" even??? Did they mention the Ten Commandments??? Any of those things???

Being influenced by Christianity to varying degrees, or being one, and founding a nation, does not mean it's a Christian nation. A Christian nation would mean this was/is a theocracy.

The founding fathers were clearly not founding a theocracy.

And just for laughs, I wonder how many of them would be considered "true Christians" upon a full analysis of their lives. A bunch of Freemasons and the Jefferson Bible spring to mind..

originally posted by: guitarplayer
Your bring up laws in the west I thought we were talking about the founding of the USA.

Ya. The founding documents are the principles by which we make our laws aren't they???

That's all I meant by that.

Plus, I believe it was you that brought up the Sodomy Laws wasn't it???

I just noticed the rebuttal thread which if I remember correctly is against T&C. Maybe they will let it slide.

I had already said they would avoid this thread because they would have to address the subject with evidence and reason. Sometimes I wish I wasn't right about these things.

a reply to: Grimpachi

So you're saying...

You prophesied something and it turned out to be true?

I AM NOT WORTHY!!

*Drops to knees and begins bowing*

Clearly, the force is with you!

The sodomy laws I was speaking of were in the original 13 colonies which could carry a penalty of death.

The proscription of sodomy in the English tradition began in 1533 when King Henry VIII adopted contemporary church doctrine into a system of laws at the time of the English withdrawal from the Catholic Church. Sodomy became both a sin and a crime, since ecclesiastical law recognizes no distinction between the concepts of "sin" and "crime." Sodomy included any form of non-procreative acts including masturbation, oral and anal sex.

The original thirteen American colonies derived their laws from the English common law and continued the legal tradition in which sodomy carried the penalty of death.

The 1683 Pennsylvania law called sodomy an "unnatural sin" and the East New Jersey law listed it among the "Offenses against God."

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: guitarplayer
Your bring up laws in the west I thought we were talking about the founding of the USA.

Ya. The founding documents are the principles by which we make our laws aren't they???

That's all I meant by that.

Plus, I believe it was you that brought up the Sodomy Laws wasn't it???

I don't know much about US history and I won't argue about that.
But this is what I see: on your national currency bill you have "In God we trust". We all know it doesn't mean Allah.
Most of the US presidents so far took the oath on Bibles.
Christmas is a federal holiday, just like the Independence Day.
In every court of law across the US people swear on Bibles to tell the truth "so help me God".

This is for the official part. For the unofficial stand, I have to see yet a hindu or a muslim elected in any major position in Senat, Congress, US Army and so on.

Well, for an outsider all this looks a lot like a christian country. Right or wrong is another debate, so is freedom of religion. But Christianity....you may call it whatever you want but I have no doubt in my mind that for the whole wide world US is a christian country.

a reply to: WhiteHat

And a lot of that was stuff added later, mostly during the red scare.

Not at our foundation

a reply to: guitarplayer

The sodomy laws would also have been found in any Muslim community as well. Sodomy laws are not "Christian specific". Christians don't have the patent on being discriminatory on what goes on in the bedroom.

a reply to: guitarplayer

In England, Henry VIII introduced the first legislation under English criminal law against sodomy with the Buggery Act of 1533, making buggery punishable by hanging, a penalty not lifted until 1861.

Besides his six marriages, Henry VIII is known for his role in the separation of the Church of England from the Roman Catholic Church. His disagreements with the Pope led to his separation of the Church of England from papal authority, with himself, as king, as the Supreme Head of the Church of England and to the Dissolution of the Monasteries.

Founding Fathers, Thomas Jefferson, elaborated about the history of common law in his letter to Thomas Cooper on February 10, 1814

"For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law. . . This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it."

". . . if any one chooses to build a doctrine on any law of that period, supposed to have been lost, it is incumbent on him to prove it to have existed, and what were its contents. These were so far alterations of the common law, and became themselves a part of it. But none of these adopt Christianity as a part of the common law. If, therefore, from the settlement of the Saxons to the introduction of Christianity among them, that system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians, and if, having their laws from that period to the close of the common law, we are all able to find among them no such act of adoption, we may safely affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth) that Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
link

Just argued this with my Christian friend. This person said that it was a Christian nation because the majority of people were Christians. They were together as a nation (no politics).

That might hold true but it is not what meant by most of those pastors.

I will quote some from this site:

Is the United States a "Christian nation"? Some Americans think so. Religious Right activists and right-wing television preachers often claim that the United States was founded to be a Christian nation. Even some politicians agree. If the people who make this assertion are merely saying that most Americans are Christians, they might have a point. But those who argue that America is a Christian nation usually mean something more, insisting that the country should be officially Christian. The very character of our country is at stake in the outcome of this debate

Religious Right groups and their allies insist that the United States was designed to be officially Christian and that our laws should enforce the doctrines of (their version of) Christianity. Is this viewpoint accurate? Is there anything in the Constitution that gives special treatment or preference to Christianity? Did the founders of our government believe this or intend to create a government that gave special recognition to Christianity?

www.au.org...

Apparently there's a fine line somewhere there.

Even if the majority of people back there were Christians it does not make our nation Christian.

Sorry I'm too drunk to continue discussing.

Majority of people back then were Christians - probably.

Does that make this country a Christian nation? - NO.

originally posted by: guitarplayer
And these senators where there when every state setup their constitutions? Just because some later senators denigh what others have done or said before is what…

It would really help to further intelligent discussion on the content of a video, if you were to watch the video.

The US Senators who unanimously voted in favor of language that clarified the US was not founded on Christianity, or is a Christian nation, did so in 1797.