NLBS #48: The United States Is Not, And Never Was, A Christian Nation

originally posted by: SkepticOverlord

originally posted by: guitarplayer
You all may want to look the preambles of the states constitutions. I do beleive that all 50 of them mention God, Almighty God ect...

It seems as though you didn't actually watch the video, where we showed how the US Senate voted unanimously on wording that confirmed the US was not founded on the Christian religion, and was not a Christian nation.

And these senators where there when every state setup their constitutions? Just because some later senators denigh what others have done or said before is what... you beleive and trust the government when it says something? Look at each states preambles and then look at the laws that were written on the books during that time and you will see laws refecting the religious tenats of the citizens of that time.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs

originally posted by: radarloveguy
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

off topic , but self explanatory .

God exists , your govt. has irrefutable proof .

Hilary's up to her neck in it.

.... that's why your country is now supercrumbly....

The cryptic ramblings are most unwelcome.

Can you just elaborate on what you are talking about.

Pay him no mind I have a feeling he is playing at "poe" trying to make Christians look like insane idiots or he is .....nvm, I will not finish that.


As for the video, it was very good and precise. It covered the subject extremely well and I do not think there will be many with evidenced arguments against what was presented. This is one of those videos I will be posting in threads where the "this is a Christian nation" argument is presented.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Thanks. I just went and looked at a couple. One from a few years back was responded to and declined by POTUS.

As an atheist... this is a WINNNN lol

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Thanks. I just went and looked at a couple. One from a few years back was responded to and declined by POTUS.

No problem.

Did you read the reason for the decline?
I'd be interested in knowing why the President felt it unnecessary.

a reply to: guitarplayer

Where do you get "Christian", especially "Christian Nation" out of all that?

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Sure thing! This response is from 2011 though. So there may be more recent ones. I don't doubt that there are newer, still open petitions as well.

The separation of church and state outlined in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution is an important founding principle of our nation. Our nation's Bill of Rights guarantees not only that the government cannot establish an official religion, but also guarantees citizens' rights to practice the religion of their choosing or no religion at all.

Throughout our history, people of all faiths – as well as secular Americans – have played an important role in public life. And a robust dialogue about the role of religion in public life is an important part of our public discourse.

While the President strongly supports every American's right to religious freedom and the separation of church and state, that does not mean there's no role for religion in the public square.

When he was a Senator from Illinois, President Obama gave a keynote address at the Call to Renewal conference where he spoke about the important role religion plays in politics and in public life.

A sense of proportion should also guide those who police the boundaries between church and state. Not every mention of God in public is a breach to the wall of separation - context matters.

That's why President Obama supports the use of the words "under God' in our Pledge of Allegiance and "In God we Trust' on our currency and as our national motto. These phrases represent the important role religion plays in American public life, while we continue to recognize and protect the rights of secular Americans. As the President said in his inaugural address, "We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus, and non-believers." We're proud of that heritage, and the strength it brings to our great country.

petitions.whitehouse.gov...

a reply to: Grimpachi

LoL as soon as I sent that last message I face palmed at the massive "troll alert" in my mind's eye.

a reply to: guitarplayer

What laws reflecting religious tenants are you talking about??? Like don't kill, or steal, or bang your neighbors wife??? As if those ideas are difficult to understand or realize without a Religious text telling you. It's not difficult to understand how and why someone would come to those conclusions when trying to come up with laws for a cohesive society. They are probably the most basic and standard rules that anyone with half a brain would come to rather quickly. Just because they resemble some Religious rules doesn't mean that is where they came from.

Not to mention we know full well that even the Bible wasn't the fist place to find such ideas. They simply copied them from those before them or carried them over when they conquered others.

Now, if we had laws specific to biblical law or that mentioned a specific God and it could be shown that it was mentioned right from the beginning in the very first documents you might have an argument but that doesn't exist. On the contrary it can be shown and is shown very well in this video that specifics to biblical reference came much much later on.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Thanks buddy.

The POA I can understand...

Not so much the currency, always found that one strange tbh.

faithofourfathers.net...

The pilgrims were followed to New England by the Puritans, who created bible-based commonwealths. Those commonwealths practiced the same sort of representative government as their church covenants. Those governmental covenants and compacts numbered more than 100, and were the foundation for our Constitution.

New Haven (Connecticut) and Massachusetts were founded by Puritans who wanted to reform the Church of England, who later became known as Congregationalists. Roger Williams founded the colony of Rhode Island based on the principle of freedom of conscience. Pennsylvania was established by William Penn as a Quaker colony. Maryland was a haven for Catholics from Protestant England.

America was indeed founded by bible-believing Christians and based on Christian principles. When they founded this country, the Founding Fathers envisioned a government that would promote and encourage Christianity.

All but two of the first 108 universities founded in America were Christian. This includes the first, Harvard, where the student handbook listed this as Rule #1: “Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation for our children to follow the moral principles of the Ten Commandments."

In 1777. Continental Congress voted to spend $300,000 to purchase bibles which were to be distributed throughout the 13 colonies! And in 1782, the United States Congress declared, “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools."

So, let us take a look at some of the lives and words of our Founding Fathers to see whether they were Christians or whether history has been revised.

John Adams
In a letter to Thomas Jefferson dated June 28, 1813, he said

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity"

Sam Adams

After signing the Declaration of Independence, he proclaimed:

"We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come."

In his February, 1795 Proclamation for a Day of Public Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, then Governor Adams said:

“That with true repentance and contrition of Heart, we may unitedly implore the forgiveness of our Sins, through the merits of Jesus Christ, and humbly supplicate our Heavenly Father, to grant us the aids of his Grace, for the amendment of our Hearts and Lives, and vouchsafe his smiles upon our temporal concerns.”

And finally, these are the words in his Last Will and Testament:

“Principally, and first of all, I resign my soul to the Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying on the merits of Jesus Christ for the pardon of my sins.”

anyway, you all can continue reading, there are also many letters written by the founding fathers listed on a web page I will look for,

the fact is 99.9% of the early settlers were Christians.

a reply to: guitarplayer

And these senators where there when every state setup their constitutions? Just because some later senators denigh what others have done or said before is what... you beleive and trust the government when it says something?

Did you not watch the video? Did you forget what was said in the video? Are you trying you arguing aginst this being a Christian nation? I would agree on that last part if you are.

However, I believe you are trying to argue for one and have not realized you just made an argument against one.

The treaty of tripoli was signed on November 4, 1796, then ratified unanimously January 3, 1797. The later senators were the ones involved in setting up state constitutions. You do not get a better opinion of what the country stands for from later senators you do get it from the founding fathers.

To be clear the senate voted unanimously on it in 1797 the state constitutions per your post were on 1865, 1959, 1911, 1874, 1849, 1876, 1818, 1897, 1885, 1959, 1890, 1848, 1851, 1846, 1859, the only state that put god in their preamble before the Treaty of Tripoli was Georgia in 1777.

I suggest Georgia may be a Christian state going by that, but this is not a Christian country.

a reply to: Stormdancer777

Does that mean they wanted a christian nation?

a reply to: Stormdancer777

I am guessing you are omitting slaves from your 99.9% number, correct? Even at 3/5'ths of a person, I don't think your numbers work.

Look at the sodomy laws and tell me which belief system they were inspired under?

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: guitarplayer

What laws reflecting religious tenants are you talking about??? Like don't kill, or steal, or bang your neighbors wife??? As if those ideas are difficult to understand or realize without a Religious text telling you. It's not difficult to understand how and why someone would come to those conclusions when trying to come up with laws for a cohesive society. They are probably the most basic and standard rules that anyone with half a brain would come to rather quickly. Just because they resemble some Religious rules doesn't mean that is where they came from.

Not to mention we know full well that even the Bible wasn't the fist place to find such ideas. They simply copied them from those before them or carried them over when they conquered others.

Now, if we had laws specific to biblical law or that mentioned a specific God and it could be shown that it was mentioned right from the beginning in the very first documents you might have an argument but that doesn't exist. On the contrary it can be shown and is shown very well in this video that specifics to biblical reference came much much later on.

A Few Declarations of Founding Fathers and Early Statesmen on Jesus, Christianity, and the Bible

www.wallbuilders.com...

www.str.org...

As for others--George Washington, Samuel Adams, James Madison, John Witherspoon, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, John Adams, Patrick Henry, and even Thomas Jefferson--their personal correspondence, biographies, and public statements are replete with quotations showing that these thinkers had political philosophies deeply influenced by Christianity.

Benjamin Franklin

Even Franklin the deist is equivocal. He was raised in a Puritan family and later adopted then abandoned deism. Though not an orthodox Christian, it was 81-year-old Franklin's emotional call to humble prayer on June 28, 1787, that was the turning point for a hopelessly stalled Convention. James Madison recorded the event in his collection of notes and debates from the Federal Convention. Franklin's appeal contained no less than four direct references to Scripture.

And have we forgotten that powerful Friend? Or do we imagine that we no longer need His assistance? I have lived, sir, a long time and the longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, sir, in the sacred writings that 'except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it.' I firmly believe this and I also believe that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel. [Benjamin Franklin, quoted by James Madison in Notes on Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787 (Athens: Ohio University Press, 1966, 1985), p. 209.]

a reply to: Leonidas

Doesn't leave much room for anyone to have any sort of other beliefs, even if you don't include the slaves.

Me thinks someone made that number up.

originally posted by: guitarplayer
Look at the sodomy laws and tell me which belief system they were inspired under?

Christianity isn't the only Religion that outlaws sodomy first of all so let's not imply that such a law was exclusive to Christianity.

However, sodomy laws in the west were derived from Christian morality most likely but that doesn't mean that one law thereby makes this a Christian nation. Nobody denies that many of the first Americans were Christians of some type. Obviously there was indeed some Christian influence as well. This isn't in dispute. But there is a difference between being influenced by your beliefs and a Government Established National Religion.

If their intention to Establish Christianity as the Religion for America don't you think they would have made that clear at some point???

Don't you think that one of these men as smart and careful as they were with the wording of this document might have said, "Hey fellas, ya think we should mention that we want Christianity as our Religion for this new country we are starting so it's clear and understood??"

How does it make sense that they would think to themselves, "This is a Christian Nation" while at the same time write about a separation of Church and State and no laws respecting a religion??? That would have been a clear contradiction that I'm sure one of them would have noticed.

They used a generic reference to God. Not Allah, not Jesus, not Grand Pooba, not Buddha, not Brahman, etc. Just generic old God or Creator. Plus like I said already, find out how many of them were also FreeMasons. Then read a little about what Masons thought of a higher power. Pay attention to their non-specific allowance for exactly The Great Architect might be. It's one thing to promote the idea of a higher power and yet another to demand that the Higher Power be Jesus the Christ our Lord and Savior bla bla bla.....

They were not specific for a reason.

that 'except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it.' I firmly believe this and I also believe that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel.

Franklin


And I see we are reaping what we have sown.What sorrow for those who say that evil is good and good is evil, that dark is light and light is dark, that bitter is sweet and sweet is bitter.

America…Our Christian Heritage,
Our History and Faith in God
"The Deception of Separation of Church and State"
Compiled and Written by Murray Hornsby, Director
American Heritage Alliance Inc..

www.americanheritagealliance.org...

Benjamin Franklin in a letter to the President of the first Constitutional Congress, 1789: " I have lived a long time, Sir, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth- that God governs in the affairs of men.

good luck

Let me humbly set you straight....

www.youtube.com...