"Right to Refuse Service" but not to Gays?

a reply to: NavyDoc

Is said business open to the public, or is it a private exclusive club requiring membership?

you said strawman,

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Puppylove
For those saying that a business should be allowed to not service someone for being gay may I ask a question?

Let's say every business decided not to serve gays. They'd no longer be able to buy food, toilet paper, medicine, get hospital care, ect. It would be a death sentence.

That is why it's illegal, because allowing such things can lead to serious human rights violations. I mean really you want to go back to the days a business could have signs like "no blacks allowed"?

But isn't that a reducto ad absurdum argument? Surely that isn't the case in today's day and age and, in a free market, if there is a need to be filled, someone would rush in and fill it. If everyone stopped selling wedding cakes to gays tomorrow, I'd be tempted to find a baker and set him up in a shop that caters ONLY to gays. I'd have a heck of a lot of business.

Not to jump into your discussion with someone else, but if you did this wouldn't you be discriminating against straight people then?

Yes you would be getting a "heck of a lot of business" but if you catered ONLY to gays, you are doing exactly what we are talking about here....The government apparently wouldn't allow you to do this because you have to serve everyone!

originally posted by: Puppylove
A business is not a club, it's a service. Association has nothing to do with it.

Of course it does. When you engage in commerce with someone, you are engaging in association. A caterer who is for gun control should have every right to refuse to cater an NRA banquet because it violates her beliefs and she does not want to have her business associated with the NRA or she simply does not like the logo.

The Nazis forced people not to do business with Jews. The same principle is in action: the state forcing individuals to do business or not do business with whomever they want.

a reply to: NavyDoc

meh.

If you really don't want to do business with someone just charge em double.

originally posted by: Iamthatbish
Personally if you choose to refuse someones money due to their choices not matching yours, please keep being vocal about so those of us that care can boycott you too.

Exactly the correct attitude.

Don't give a government office which will one day be run by someone you disagree with... the ability to point a gun at you and make you behave their way.

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Puppylove
For those saying that a business should be allowed to not service someone for being gay may I ask a question?

Let's say every business decided not to serve gays. They'd no longer be able to buy food, toilet paper, medicine, get hospital care, ect. It would be a death sentence.

That is why it's illegal, because allowing such things can lead to serious human rights violations. I mean really you want to go back to the days a business could have signs like "no blacks allowed"?

But isn't that a reducto ad absurdum argument? Surely that isn't the case in today's day and age and, in a free market, if there is a need to be filled, someone would rush in and fill it. If everyone stopped selling wedding cakes to gays tomorrow, I'd be tempted to find a baker and set him up in a shop that caters ONLY to gays. I'd have a heck of a lot of business.

Not to jump into your discussion with someone else, but if you did this wouldn't you be discriminating against straight people then?

Yes you would be getting a "heck of a lot of business" but if you catered ONLY to gays, you are doing exactly what we are talking about here....The government apparently wouldn't allow you to do this because you have to serve everyone!

I'm certain the government wouldn't mind because these anti-discrimination laws are rarely enforced equitably. I'd probably get a medal from the DNC for it.

Free markets, if there is a need, someone will fill it.

originally posted by: grey580
a reply to: NavyDoc

meh.

If you really don't want to do business with someone just charge em double.

See, I think that is a lot more unethical than simply saying, no thanks, and not serving them.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
A caterer who is for gun control should have every right to refuse to cater an NRA banquet because it violates her beliefs and she does not want to have her business associated with the NRA or she simply does not like the logo.

I just don't see "progressives" "cutting of their noses to spite their faces" like the right does. The 21st century is going to happen. Then can come willingly or be dragged kicking and screaming.

originally posted by: LDragonFire
a reply to: NavyDoc

Is said business open to the public, or is it a private exclusive club requiring membership?

you said strawman,

It's a private entity. It is not funded by taxpayer dollars, so it is not owned by the public.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Puppylove
A business is not a club, it's a service. Association has nothing to do with it.

Of course it does. When you engage in commerce with someone, you are engaging in association. A caterer who is for gun control should have every right to refuse to cater an NRA banquet because it violates her beliefs and she does not want to have her business associated with the NRA or she simply does not like the logo.

The Nazis forced people not to do business with Jews. The same principle is in action: the state forcing individuals to do business or not do business with whomever they want.

Not doing business with the Jews was wrong because it ripped their livelihood away from them. Whereas forcing people to do business with the Jews would only ensure that the Jews are never turned away from purchasing food or necessities.

How do you not see the difference between refusal of business and being required to do business? They are two completely different things with completely different results.

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein
a reply to: lonweld

This is complete BS! Law or not, if you own a business there should be nobody, government included, that can tell you who you HAVE to serve!

If a business doesn't want to serve gays, that should be their power to do so...How can government who you pay taxes to and that funds their salary, tell you who to serve? WE ARE THEIR BOSS, not the other way around...But it appears people just fall into the same trap, I would fight it...Who cares if you win, just on principal.

How stupid.

If someone operates a business and wants to cater it to a segregated group, stuff them. Optional, sure. be specific, but not exclusive. If someone says "I dont like you because yuoure black, so get out!" Id be pissed. if they say the same about being a woman, I'd be pissed. Id they say it about albinos or anyone else for that matter, they can bugger off. I dont mind specific. But if I walk into a store and expect my transaction to be as equitable as that of any other member of society, and not less based on someones ignorance, then if I am refused that same service, Sod the place, and let it suffer.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: grey580
a reply to: NavyDoc

meh.

If you really don't want to do business with someone just charge em double.

See, I think that is a lot more unethical than simply saying, no thanks, and not serving them.

WHAT?!?

Now you're saying a businessman can't set his own prices however he sees fit to set them at?!?

Discriminate all he wants but can't set his prices how he wants?

Pffft. what is this world coming to?

Thank you to the honey pot crew for the opportunity to engage. Hope you had fun!

originally posted by: NavyDoc

It's a private entity. It is not funded by taxpayer dollars, so it is not owned by the public.

Its a public establishment it must conform to public safety laws, fire code, it can't discriminate based on religion, race, sex, and according to the courts it can't discriminate based of sexuality either.

Yet again not being able to discriminates somehow take rights away from them....

If they refused to serve Muslims would you support them? or blacks? or the dreaded illegals?

a reply to: LDragonFire

Exactly.

As a business you must conform to a plethora of city, county, state and federal laws.



NOw if you want to get around that. You can be a membership based establishment.
I think the rules are different there.

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein

originally posted by: jimmyx

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein

originally posted by: jimmyx

originally posted by: GetOutOfMyLight
a reply to: grey580
Nowhere does Jesus say to use the state upon threat of punishment to force people to behave his way.

Either you obey the commandments because you choose to, or you don't and risk the consequences once your run on the planet is over.

this country isn't set up to be run by what Jesus says, that's why it has a constitution. I don't obey any mythical being, nor do I want to live in a country that does.

you live in CA....So welcome to the country that does believe in what you call a "mythical being"...

You ever read a paper bill? Anyone will work...$1, $5, $10, $100 whatever....IN GOD WE TRUST!!

ONE NATION, UNDER GOD, Indivisible......

There are a lot more examples, but hopefully your eyes are open now to where you say you don't want to live..

really??... go pick up a history book, or at least go out on the internet and do some research on those two examples...your eyes are the ones that need to be opened

What in the world do you mean by pick up a history book when you are talking about not living in a country that believes in God and I am saying you do?

Sorry my eyes must be closed here, but I don't see what the hell you are trying to say here....

I understand if you all of a sudden just found out that the USA believes in God and don't know what to say, but if you are trying to defend your stance somehow I would appreciate an explanation because I have no clue what you are trying to defend from the above statement...

the USA is not a person, it is a country made up of different and unique people...a country can't believe in a god, people can. I am a citizen of the USA, who does not believe in god, because to me, god is a mythical being. but, I am still an American. to me, if for some reason, I assume another plane of existence after physical death, I will deal with that at that time....maybe you can tell me how a "country" can believe in god. if we eliminated all the people from the USA, would the USA still believe in god?

originally posted by: grey580
a reply to: LDragonFire

Exactly.

As a business you must conform to a plethora of city, county, state and federal laws.



NOw if you want to get around that. You can be a membership based establishment.
I think the rules are different there.

Yeah, they tried that back around 2000. They were clamping down on smoking in establishment. So some went out and made them "clubs". Then the gov't shut down all smoking in public areas. Can't beat city hall.....and the whiny anti-smoking lobby.

I find this news so very disappointing as i was planning on moving to The States and opening a whites only water fountain and bus company.

originally posted by: skalla
I find this news so very disappointing as i was planning on moving to The States and opening a whites only water fountain and bus company.

Make it vegan/non-smoking and you'll probably get grant money!

Okay, here's the deal. Being Gay is a lifestyle and a sexual orientation. As the President says "it's who you love". Do you not see how allowing business owners to get away with this is ridiculous?

What next? Anybody who has sexual relations outside a marriage, outside the privacy of their bedroom, and in anything other than the missionary position for the purpose of procreation is "not allowed". Same thing.