"Right to Refuse Service" but not to Gays?

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: NavyDoc
I have been kicked out of a few shops in San Francisco because I was military. Didn't bother me, I just went and spent my money elsewhere.

You were probably kicked out for wearing Cowboy's or Packer's colors. GO NINERS!

I don't agree man. If I was you I'd be pissed.

Shrug. After several tours in Afghanistan and Iraq and sundry other #-holes, I don't worry about the small stuff. This is really a first world problem.

originally posted by: grey580
That's my 2 cents for what it's worth.

One day you will find yourself or someone you care about and don't disagree with on the opposite end of those laws. That is when you will understand *exactly* what those 2 cents bought you.

originally posted by: Aural
A lot of you people wouldn't be preaching the same crap if it was someone refusing service to someone for being a conservative or for using ATS because it gets personal then. Youd be screaming for your rights to service not defending them for taking away service.

There are a lot of groups, organizations, and businesses I can't/won't engage in precisely because I'm clearly anti-thetical to their point of view.

Again, there is a difference between being assaulted, denied the right to organize my *own* group, denied the right to setup a shop, etc... and simply being told "No thanks."

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein

originally posted by: jimmyx

originally posted by: GetOutOfMyLight
a reply to: grey580
Nowhere does Jesus say to use the state upon threat of punishment to force people to behave his way.

Either you obey the commandments because you choose to, or you don't and risk the consequences once your run on the planet is over.

this country isn't set up to be run by what Jesus says, that's why it has a constitution. I don't obey any mythical being, nor do I want to live in a country that does.

you live in CA....So welcome to the country that does believe in what you call a "mythical being"...

You ever read a paper bill? Anyone will work...$1, $5, $10, $100 whatever....IN GOD WE TRUST!!

ONE NATION, UNDER GOD, Indivisible......

There are a lot more examples, but hopefully your eyes are open now to where you say you don't want to live..

really??... go pick up a history book, or at least go out on the internet and do some research on those two examples...your eyes are the ones that need to be opened

originally posted by: Aural
A lot of you people wouldn't be preaching the same crap if it was someone refusing service to someone for being a conservative or for using ATS. Youd be screaming for your rights to service not defending them for taking away service.

Happens all the time. Many stores ban CCW. Their business, their rules. If I don't like it, I take my business elsewhere.

A business owner is probably a business owner so he can exercise more control over his work life.

If a business chooses to not accept a client, that is fine. Decline the offer or request and if asked why, decline again, apologize, and thank them for considering you.

If someone has an abrasive personality, should a business be in the position of being sued because it chose not to accept work from someone known to be difficult to deal with? Can that person sue for discrimination as well? He could argue he is no more difficult than another client the business accepted and claim he was discriminated against.

At what point is the line drawn between discrimination against potential clients and the business not being interested in working with a client?

For those saying that a business should be allowed to not service someone for being gay may I ask a question?

Let's say every business decided not to serve gays. They'd no longer be able to buy food, toilet paper, medicine, get hospital care, ect. It would be a death sentence.

That is why it's illegal, because allowing such things can lead to serious human rights violations. I mean really you want to go back to the days a business could have signs like "no blacks allowed"?

This has nothing to do with people's rights.

Why does the couple who claimed discrimination get 1500.00 each when the state gets 10,000.00?

Think about it.

a reply to: NavyDoc

I think it's wrong too, however, I also think that government forcing people to engage in commerce or association they do not want to is also wrong. I guess the difference between you and I lies in the fact that I do not think it just to use the coercive power of the state to enforce my ideas of whom should work with whom.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Their money is as green as anyone elses.

In a perfect world we wouldn't need the state to enforce equality.
And in a perfect world everyone would treat everyone else with dignity and respect.
But we don't.
And this is why we can't have nice things.

a reply to: NavyDoc

I presume you are referring to concealed weapons. That is not really comparable because it has a physical object in play with potential risks attached to it. You can leave weapons behind and still go in anyway if you wanted. Someone cant drop their sexuality off at the front door.

originally posted by: Puppylove
For those saying that a business should be allowed to not service someone for being gay may I ask a question?

Let's say every business decided not to serve gays. They'd no longer be able to buy food, toilet paper, medicine, get hospital care, ect. It would be a death sentence.

That is why it's illegal, because allowing such things can lead to serious human rights violations. I mean really you want to back to the days a business could have signs like "no blacks allowed"?

So you're saying that if it weren't for all those straight business owners gay people would be utterly helpless and incapable of taking care of themselves?

It's always so fascinating to see how those most earnestly believing they are protecting someone think so little of those they are protecting.

Again, there is a difference between being told you can't run a business... and being told who you have to do business with.

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein
a reply to: jimmyx

How am I not using common sense? When I own a business, I own the right to serve you personally. If I don't want to serve you personally, I don't have to because I own the business! It should be nobody's right to tell me who I can and can't serve!

THAT IS COMMON SENSE!!

ok...here it is, down in the southern US, a long time ago, black people weren't allowed to do a lot of things, when they tried to open their own businesses, they were killed....when they tried to go into white businesses and refused to leave, they had the crap beat out of them and they were physically thrown out, they were killed for telling a white woman she was pretty in public, they couldn't buy a house in a white neighborhood, if they did, it was burnt to the ground...I could go on, but there are thousands of books and web pages, where you can take the time and educate yourself about this

Oh I agree the state getting 10,000 while the people only get 1500 each is ludicrous as the people were the ones the crime was against.

That said not servicing someone for being gay is a hate crime. While yes there is a discrepancy in the way the fines and compensations function, it makes the act itself no less a hate crime.

a reply to: GetOutOfMyLight

One day you will find yourself or someone you care about and don't disagree with on the opposite end of those laws. That is when you will understand *exactly* what those 2 cents bought you.

Or maybe one day you'll be glad to live in a country that defends your right to live free without discrimination.

originally posted by: GetOutOfMyLight
So you're saying that if it weren't for all those straight business owners gay people would be utterly helpless and incapable of taking care of themselves?

In some Red states that might actually make sense.

Refuse service at your own peril.

It's utterly stupid IMO, if you want to run a successful business then leave your beliefs at home. Do you know what would happen if I refused to do some gardening for a couple of lesbians? I'd lose a hundred dollars out of my paycheck.

Being prejudiced is not a good business model.

originally posted by: Aural
a reply to: NavyDoc

I presume you are referring to concealed weapons. That is not really comparable because it has a physical object in play with potential risks attached to it. You can leave weapons behind and still go in anyway if you wanted. Someone cant drop their sexuality off at the front door.

So that is acceptable discrimination.



Got it!

originally posted by: GetOutOfMyLight

originally posted by: Puppylove
For those saying that a business should be allowed to not service someone for being gay may I ask a question?

Let's say every business decided not to serve gays. They'd no longer be able to buy food, toilet paper, medicine, get hospital care, ect. It would be a death sentence.

That is why it's illegal, because allowing such things can lead to serious human rights violations. I mean really you want to back to the days a business could have signs like "no blacks allowed"?

So you're saying that if it weren't for all those straight business owners gay people would be utterly helpless and incapable of taking care of themselves?

It's always so fascinating to see how those most earnestly believing they are protecting someone think so little of those they are protecting.

Again, there is a difference between being told you can't run a business... and being told who you have to do business with.

I think they'd at best be forced into poverty, many would suffer malnutrition and die, until a gay community could form assuming they could attain the realistate they'd need to build such a community, they aren't incompetent, but it's be pretty bad. Gays are spread out and not that numerous, and there's not a huge number of grouped gay business owners. You act like having the rug pulled out on them would be no big deal.

It is wrong and immoral to not do business with someone on grounds not related to harm against your business by actions on their part.

If a customer is being beligerant, breaking your merchandise, ect, that's one thing. Just because they're gay is not. Everyone has the right to pursue happiness and live free of discrimination.

Would I survive if you decided to cut my arm off because you disagree with my sexual orientation? Sure, but it would be harder, and that I'd survive does not make cutting my arm off acceptable.

wonder how some of the religious folks would feel if someone came along and bought the resturant that them and their church buddies visited every sunday after church and hung out a no christian sign on the door

or for the anti smoking crowd a smokers only resturant
ect..

originally posted by: grey580
Or maybe one day you'll be glad to live in a country that defends your right to live free without discrimination.

There are all sorts of organizations I'm not welcome as a white male. *I* don't feel it necessary to force those people to be different just because I think they are closed minded.

originally posted by: intrepid
In some Red states that might actually make sense.

You're saying Blue states don't have their own prejudices that disenfranchise people that don't "fit in" even if they aren't hurting anyone?

originally posted by: Thecakeisalie
Refuse service at your own peril.

Precisely. It is a losing business model... but enforcing by the state just *antagonizes* the issue which is precisely why it's being pursued. There are people who's careers depend on there being an ever present "problem".

originally posted by: dawnstar
or for the anti smoking crowd a smokers only resturant
ect..

Now that's just ridiculous. Everyone that isn't a smoker, con, lib, gay, straight, Asian, Black, White, etc all crap on the smokers. It's the one thing they can all hate together.