One Gaza Issue Resolved. Israel Not Targeting Women and Children.

Not once, not twice but 3 times the U.N. safe house was hit. Guess just because there was not enough women and children in them at the time of blast its ok. Sheesh any other site op you would be banned for ignorance. Sheesh, worst argument for Israel i have ever seen.

a reply to: MALBOSIA

Dear MALBOSIA,

Forgive me for including yours among those posts I didn't respond to. Some other posts I didn't respond to are those that were taken care of by other posters, or that are discussing natural gas, a subject I know very little about and is off-topic.

Israeli targets INCLUDE women and children.

I think we have another language problem. I haven't seen any evidence that the IDF, while scanning to find a rocket launching site, spots a woman and says "Let's shoot at her, she's on our target list." But, I can understand it if the IDF is going to shell a building used for military purposes and it turns out that there are women in it.

It is moot anyway. Avoiding innocent casualties is written in the International laws for rules of engagement.

It's also a war crime to expose civilians to enemy fire by putting military facilities in civilian areas.

Israel has agreed to no such rules so there are no laws broken.

Israel has signed all four Geneva conventions and has agreed to Protocol III

Since Israel has no chance of ever being considered legitimate by the majority of the world, they really have nothing to lose.

"Legitimate?" I wonder what you mean by that? It sounds like it means "A country who does things I don't happen to like." I've seen posters say that the US is a terrorist nation and China is a country we should emulate. I don't want to go quite as far as to say that such a comparison is crazy, but I will say it seems to be uninformed.

I don't know why they waste their time trying to convince the world they are just. They don't care either way.

I've never seen such a quickly self-contradictory argument. "Israel puts real effort into establishing themselves as a "just" nation, but they don't care if they are or not." What?

With respect,
Charles1952

originally posted by: charles1952

If Israel is, more or less, hitting the targets it has in mind, then who is it hitting? The figures tell us that military age males are getting hit way out of proportion to their share of the population. They also tell us that women and children are getting hit way less than their proportion in the population. What other choice is there but to say that Israel is targeting military age males, and trying to avoid women and children?

These figures you speak of, where are they?

a reply to: FyreByrd
I realize the question was not to me...but, since it's an easy one, I'll take a shot...
In the OP...with link to external (NYT) article.
Hope that helps.

a reply to: FyreByrd

Dear FyreByrd,

I kind of wish you hadn't asked. Now I'm going to be accused of being snarky when I don't mean that at all.

They're in the OP and links.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: kingsquirel

Dear kingsquirel,

The frustrating part for me is repeating the same information or thought over and over.

Fine, alert the Mods and tell them to delete the thread due to ignorance. Let me know what happens.

You think it's a bad argument for Israel? May I remind you and everyone else that this is not an argument for anybody. It's an argument against a false and inflammatory charge that has been used frequently on ATS.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: dannnodot
First post on this website - and you choose to avoid the subject of the OP?
Hmmmm...
Care to comment on the numbers and analysis of said numbers...of children, women/ladies, and militants-aged persons purportedly killed by the Israeli response?
Looking forward to it...

a reply to: WanDash

Dear WanDash,

Thank you very much for responding to dannnodot as you did. I was wondering how to address him and his comments. I congratulate you on your handling of the situation, it shows tact and finesse which we should all try for.

With respect,
Charles1952

You guys keep bringing up what Hamas does comparing it to what Israel does. It's not country vs country. It's a terrorist organization vs the government and Military of Israel. A Military that has some of the (top 5?) special forces in the world, High tech drones, and spy planes, satellite, listening devices, spies in the Occupied territories and one of the most technolically advanced Military forces in the world.

Israel is commiting war crimes and mentioning that does in no way is the same thing as supporting Hamas.

originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: MALBOSIA

Dear MALBOSIA,

Forgive me for including yours among those posts I didn't respond to. Some other posts I didn't respond to are those that were taken care of by other posters, or that are discussing natural gas, a subject I know very little about and is off-topic.

Israeli targets INCLUDE women and children.

I think we have another language problem. I haven't seen any evidence that the IDF, while scanning to find a rocket launching site, spots a woman and says "Let's shoot at her, she's on our target list." But, I can understand it if the IDF is going to shell a building used for military purposes and it turns out that there are women in it.

It is moot anyway. Avoiding innocent casualties is written in the International laws for rules of engagement.

It's also a war crime to expose civilians to enemy fire by putting military facilities in civilian areas.

Israel has agreed to no such rules so there are no laws broken.

Israel has signed all four Geneva conventions and has agreed to Protocol III

Since Israel has no chance of ever being considered legitimate by the majority of the world, they really have nothing to lose.

"Legitimate?" I wonder what you mean by that? It sounds like it means "A country who does things I don't happen to like." I've seen posters say that the US is a terrorist nation and China is a country we should emulate. I don't want to go quite as far as to say that such a comparison is crazy, but I will say it seems to be uninformed.

I don't know why they waste their time trying to convince the world they are just. They don't care either way.

I've never seen such a quickly self-contradictory argument. "Israel puts real effort into establishing themselves as a "just" nation, but they don't care if they are or not." What?

With respect,
Charles1952

Oh there you are. Women and children are factored in the assaults . No they are not looking for women and children (I hope) to assault, but their targets are including women and children. Israel claims that Hamas is hiding behind innocent civilians, and they fire the rockets anyway. So Hamas is hiding behind civilians. That is wrong no doubt but that does not give Israel the right to fire missiles KNOWING that there are innocents in the area. If they know, then they are targeting. You can't have it both ways. If civilians were running towards targets after missiles launch to martyr themselves, I would say Israel would have a legitimate problem. But if there are civilians next to a target you would like destroyed you need to take an approach that would give civilians the best chance at safety. That is not up for debate.

So Israel has handed their soldiers rules for engagement? I cannot find it. Could you be a darling and post it please, I would love a peek.

By legitimate, I mean how did they achieve their boarders, if they are even finished expansion, of course.

I never said they put "real" effort. That would mean bringing something of value to Palestine and the Palestinians. What Israel is, is late for the party, pissed off they didn't get a seat and now willing to lie, cheat and throw anyone under the bus if it means getting a seat at the cost of someone else's. That is not a "real" effort.

a reply to: sosobad

So along with losing their land you want them to give up their natural resources now too?

I dont want them (palestinians) to give up their resources or lose their land.... to the contrary, i want them to finally grow a pair, grow up, take responsibility for themselves as a nation and reclaim Gaza and their government back from the terrorist cell, civilian manipulating HAMAS.

While they continue with their eccentric theatrics for the world sympathy, Israel is conducting business. If they want a country/state/independence, they also have to learn how to conduct business.... it's all about the GDP mate, its all about the money!

a reply to: charles1952

Dayum! Most excellent approach! I had never considered looking at it from a statistical approach. Never again can some closed minded -ahem- person claim that Israel is targeting women and children without rebuff.

a reply to: MALBOSIA

But if there are civilians next to a target you would like destroyed you need to take an approach that would give civilians the best chance at safety. That is not up for debate. 

Funny...but it seems that it is not up for debate when Israel, or the US are the subjects, but when it is Al-Q, Hamas, Hezbollah, Chechnia or any number of other combat happy groups or nations we just ignore their assaults on citizens.

Got news for you bud: War is hell and civilians die. Always have and always will. If we ever reach the "civilized" state where only combatants die our wars will be more like bloody football games. Not sure what is more civilized: A war we would rather not fight because civilians will die, or a war we are ok with cause civilians will be preserved.

Bottom line: What is not up for debate is that civilians die in war.

originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: SuperFrog

Thank you for coming up with a new name to call me, but I have to tell you it's been used once or twice before.

But now, in all seriousness, honesty, and concern for you. You're making yourself look foolish with these slurs. Other things might stick to me, but those certainly won't. If you want to have a good reputation on ATS as a whole, I suggest you write an apology, and blame your outburst on the passion of the thread or something.

Why not try for a reputation as a serious poster?

As I've said before, I'm not trying to justify the killing of civilians, I'm trying to stop false claims so we can get to the real problems and look for solutions without getting caught up in hyperbole.

The second World War has nothing to do with this thread.

I only started the thread because The New York Times presented far more than a shred of evidence.

Would you care to wipe the slate clean and start over?

OK, let's start with baby steps, and you will release that you just actually supporting ongoing genocide and justifying destruction and killings of civilians.

Look at your links in OP - where do they said that women and children were not targeted. How did they die, then? Care to explain??

Its recent report said that as of 10 August, 1,948 Palestinians had been killed and 66 Israelis and one Thai national since Israel launched Operation Protective Edge on 8 July.

Of those Palestinians, the status of 320 could not be identified, at least 1,402 were civilians, including 456 children and 237 women, the UN body reported.

So there were 226 members of armed groups killed, and another 709 men who were civilians. Among civilians, three times as many men were killed as women, while three times as many civilian men were killed as fighters.

According to IDF:

The IDF say they have killed at least 253 Hamas operatives, 147 Islamic Jihad operatives, 65 "operatives of various organisations" and 603 "operatives whose affiliation is unknown", although they also stress that this is not a final number.

This are numbers you defending - wonder if those kids killed on beach count as 'operatives whose affiliation is unknown'.

Whole topic and your representation just stink - it does not show that they did not specifically target civilians, but that majority of killed WERE CIVILIANS.

Who looks foolish - easy to spot from opening post... you still did not comment, do you get paid for this or not.

But again, if it makes you feel better, go for it... repeat lie, might work...

U.N. names panel to investigate war crimes in Gaza; Israel slams it

UN names Gaza war crimes probe panel

Canadian leading Gaza war-crimes probe rejects anti-Israel charges

It's getting interesting... remember, UN, the same organization that gave Israel rights on someone's else land to form state...

a reply to: bbracken677

Dear bbracken677,

Thank you. It's nice to see some clear thinking every now and then.

Never again can some closed minded -ahem- person claim that Israel is targeting women and children without rebuff.

That's all I was trying to do. Just a simple presentation of facts and a little explanation. I was hoping that it would reduce the use of the unhelpful and inflammatory claim that Israel was intentionally targeting women and children.

In an ideal world there would be a long line of posters saying "Yeah, I see that. Maybe I was a little over the top." Then we could go on to try to untangle some other problem. I didn't expect this much, well, I don't want to sound too rude so I'll just say "confusion."

Thanks again to you and the others who saw it.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: MALBOSIA

IDF rules of engagement. Here are some links that would seem to indicate there are rules of engagement. Granted, these articles range from current to a few years ago. The last is from Human Rights Watch and is quite an interesting read.


IDF soldiers protest

IDF tightens rules of engagement

clarifying rules of engagement

Rules of Engagement

One more thing, dear Charles...

Please review your OP articles, as they have changed?!

Seems that your topic and supporting evidence has changed...


bbcwatch.org...

Since its initial appearance, that article has undergone a series of alterations – including its date stamp – but no footnote has been appended to inform readers of the changes made.

The most significant change to Anthony Reuben’s article is the disappearance of the following line:

“Nonetheless, if the Israeli attacks have been “indiscriminate”, as the UN Human Rights Council says, it is hard to work out why they have killed so many more civilian men than women.”

In the article’s latest version, that sentence was replaced by this one:

“Nonetheless, the proportion of civilian men over 18 killed seems high and it is not immediately obvious why.”

The final version of the article also includes the following passage which did not appear in earlier versions:

“Many factors could have contributed to high fatality numbers among men aged 20 to 29.

Jana Krause, from the war studies department at Kings College London, says: “A potential explanation other than combatant roles could be that families expect them to be the first ones to leave shelters in order to care for hurt relatives, gather information, look after abandoned family homes or arrange food and water.

“Similar to combatant roles, these would be ‘high-risk’ social roles that young men are often expected to fulfil.”

She stressed that more work would be needed on the ground to determine why this group was over-represented in the casualty figures.

Men of this age may also be mistaken for fighters because they fit the age profile.”

a reply to: charles1952

I recognize that neither party are innocent... however it really gets to me every time I hear obvious (to me at least) lies and distortions such as the constant use of the inflammatory word "genocide". Doesn't seem to matter every time I bring up how the Palestinian population is one of the fastest growing in the world, so apparently Israel totally sucks at genocide. I mean really...this conflict/battle/whatever has been going on in a densely packed area (Gaza) and yet weeks later only 2000 or so have been killed? I use the word only in conjunction with the word genocide... if you get my drift there.

Unfortunately haters and bigots will never accept logic and I suspect they will not accept your statistics as clear and undeniable as they are.