One Gaza Issue Resolved. Israel Not Targeting Women and Children.

So now we know. Israel is not targeting women and children. I trust your threads and posts will reflect that fact.

Just to play devil's advocate (my position is anti-Israel/anti-Hamas/pro-Palestine); can you prove they're not just targetting LESS women and children? You seem like you have all the facts in your certainty.

originally posted by: Humanity4Ever
a reply to: SuperFrog

And maybe you have no clue what you're talking about, or have any grounds to make assumptions about people you know nothing about.

Tell me, do you know what means that they bombed urban sites?? Can you even comprehend that and just for second be in skin of some people who are bellow those bombs, with family around them?! If they made little mistake, and could not figure out how in open they killed kids playing on beach, what logical reasoning can you establish to say that they even care who and how many HUMANS they kill while bombing URBAN sites?!

This is clear violation of Geneva Convention, it is War Crime, and I hope that someone will be prosecuted, even in absence. (they did the same for some Serbian generals, who later ended up in hands of justice)

This play with numbers, and I doubt you even looked at numbers, is just terrible thing that just show disregard for human life and statistic is terrible thing in hand of bad person. In this case, it does not show nothing more then that over 1500 civilians were killed, be it targeted or as part of collateral damage.

a reply to: sosobad

Dear sosobad,

I have to apologize. I mishandled the brackets on my post and it blanked out the last half of my post. I'm really sorry for that, it was sloppy of me.

What I was going to add was that I wasn't trying to justify one side over the other. I'm trying to point out that a particular charge against Israel is not supported by the statistical evidence. I do get a little side tracked into closely related issues now and again, but my main point was to eliminate this false and inflammatory charge.

With respect,
Charles1952

originally posted by: charles1952
Dear SuperFrog,

As I have told others, please try to understand what this thread is about. No one is trying to justify anything. Please return to the subject.

Really - you are not justifying bombing by telling that women and children are not targeted, but yet, we all know that they have been killed. As Jon Snow said in his dialogue, something is terribly wrong with your instruments...

originally posted by: charles1952
By the way, your name calling and slurs are getting boring. It was kind of fun the first few times somebody tried to convict me of racism and Nazi sympathies, but now I see it as dull and unimaginative. Certainly you can do better than that. I haven't even bothered to alert the mods for some of the name-calling in this thread. As I mentioned earlier, it just shows that there are no arguments left.

This should not be even topic - and it is just part of scam propaganda, most likely paid by Israel. It would not be the first time... World is not buying, tho...

originally posted by: charles1952
If you'd like to try something else I'd be glad to listen. And if by some chance you have something to say that's on the topic, I'd be really delighted.

With respect,
Charles1952

Sure, how many % were children and women, based on your statistic. Tell me, what that tells you about one of most advanced army? Should they provide better vision (or IQ) test, as current one is aparantly very bad?! Is that on topic?

And how would you feel about topics that discuss numbers of people killed in concentration camps around the world? For example, Serbians are even today trying to prove that concentration camps did not exist in Bosnia, yet we all have seen pictures of people being help in what looks exact copy of concentration camp.

The same goes for Palestine, I got tired to look for the same images, but you will find images, side by side, and there is NO DIFFERENCE.

With best regards,

SF

ps. I hope we will find at least some humanity in either one of you two...

a reply to: amazing

Dear amazing,

I suppose I have to look at the four kids on the beach story. It strikes me as a little odd that this is being used as an example of Israel's policy.

We can just as easily say that Hamas kills the civilians of Gaza that don't show enough support for them, or that they tell people to get on roof tops knowing they'll be killed, or that they intentionally place rocket launching sites next to schools, hospitals and parks to invite civilian casualties, or that they fake civilian deaths. Actually, we can say that much more easily because Hamas does those things over and over.

I hope someone has some solid information on the attack, because there doesn't seem to much in the press. It's generally accepted to be an Israeli strike resulting in four deaths, but the many eye-witnesses aren't sure about whether the attack was from air or sea, and very few indeed mention that IDF had spotted a building which they identified as a military target up the beach, not far away. (It's tough for me to tell, but I'm guessing a couple of hundred yards.)

Nobody is reporting whether Israel knew they were kids, or why they fired. This is such a unique event that people return to it over and over, saying "See? See? I told you so." We do know that many fewer children are being killed than you would expect, that makes it appear that the beach deaths were an aberration and not a policy.

But I would be very grateful to hear from anyone who has more, solid, information.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: charles1952

originally posted by: TinfoilTP
a reply to: charles1952

Awesome post, they can't lie their way around the numbers.

Wait.... they will accuse charles of being an 'infiltrator' lol.... or say the News is owned by the zionists! lol

You can never win!

I like to add an applause to charles for replying to every single post regardless of how pathetic and misguided some peoples views are... he must have a lot of patience!

Well done Charles!

originally posted by: buster2010
a reply to: TinfoilTP

What makes you think they want to occupy it again?

Because Israel has been caught trying to sell the natural gas that is under Gaza.

Correct me if im wrong, but i was under the impression that gas reserves are spread throughout the entire area of the coastline of israel and gaza.... it is hard to belive that only under gaza lies gas...

gaza has elected hamas as government and by doing so they have brought hellfire on themselves. Gas reserves should be the least of their worries atm.

a reply to: SuperFrog

Thank you for coming up with a new name to call me, but I have to tell you it's been used once or twice before.

But now, in all seriousness, honesty, and concern for you. You're making yourself look foolish with these slurs. Other things might stick to me, but those certainly won't. If you want to have a good reputation on ATS as a whole, I suggest you write an apology, and blame your outburst on the passion of the thread or something.

Why not try for a reputation as a serious poster?

As I've said before, I'm not trying to justify the killing of civilians, I'm trying to stop false claims so we can get to the real problems and look for solutions without getting caught up in hyperbole.

The second World War has nothing to do with this thread.

I only started the thread because The New York Times presented far more than a shred of evidence.

Would you care to wipe the slate clean and start over?

what a nonsense argument. israel has killed HUNDREDS of women and children. who cares about statistical percentiles?

i mean really. please try harder.

originally posted by: sosobad
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

If you take a look at the video it is translated by Memritv,

The comments are disabled for the video and the auto translate function too hummm I wonder why..... Because it is a known propaganda outlet that falsely translates videos. You'd want to be careful because knowingly posting propaganda is against the new T&C's

The institute was co-founded in 1998 by Yigal Carmon, a former Israeli military intelligence officer and Meyrav Wurmser, an Israeli-born, American political scientist. MEMRI states that its goal is to "bridge the language gap that exists between the Middle East and the West".

Brian Whitaker, the Middle East editor for The Guardian newspaper at the time, wrote in a public email debate with Carmon in 2003, that his problem with MEMRI was that it "poses as a research institute when it's basically a propaganda operation"

Earlier, Whitaker had charged that MEMRI's role was to "further the political agenda of Israel." and that MEMRI's website does not mention Carmon's employment for Israeli intelligence, or Meyrav Wurmser's political stance, which he described as an "extreme brand of Zionism"

highly selective in what it chooses to translate and in which context it puts things

en.wikipedia.org...

Norman Finkelstein Exposes MEMRI As Mossad Op

Stay ignorant, must be bliss for you.

Right back at ya

Ok then.... give us the 'real' translation then.....

a reply to: SuperFrog

No, I'm not getting paid. Would you really like to know what my fundamental motivation is? You may not believe me, but I think others will, for it is true.

ATS represents a whole new world of ideas and experiences. People from all over the world, rich and poor, educated or not. These are people I would never meet in a lifetime. They have opinions to share, they've had experiences they can tell about. We can be more than acquaintances, they can be my teachers and maybe I can add a bit to their knowledge as well.

I don't want a mind full of lies, I'm looking for truth and I find it's easier when someone (or several) is following along with me, pointing out new ideas or places where my thinking has gone wrong. This doesn't happen when there is shouting, screaming, name-calling, or irrational thought.

Why this thread in particular? Because I believe that the Israel - Mid-east - Jew - Muslim - ISIL - Iraq - etc. conflict is extraordinarily important. Even ATS, based on the thread count, is very concerned about it. I want a reasonable discussion with the ultimate goal of understanding the situation. If peace is possible, maybe we can see how to get there. If peace is not possible, maybe we can see which side, if any, deserves our support.

From my user name you can see that I'm 62 years old. I've had a very interesting life in several fields. I've accomplished enough that I'm quite comfortable with my work. I don't have any need or desire to "beat" anyone, or to "win at any cost." I just want to learn, and maybe do a little bit of teaching. That's all there is to me.

originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: sosobad

Dear sosobad,

I have to apologize. I mishandled the brackets on my post and it blanked out the last half of my post. I'm really sorry for that, it was sloppy of me.

What I was going to add was that I wasn't trying to justify one side over the other. I'm trying to point out that a particular charge against Israel is not supported by the statistical evidence. I do get a little side tracked into closely related issues now and again, but my main point was to eliminate this false and inflammatory charge.

With respect,
Charles1952

Fair enough, I find it funny that you actually got starred for an incomplete post with no context though, it seems that some here will star anything vaguely pro-Israeli even without an actual post. Something nefarious at work on here lately.

originally posted by: combatmaster

originally posted by: sosobad
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

If you take a look at the video it is translated by Memritv,

The comments are disabled for the video and the auto translate function too hummm I wonder why..... Because it is a known propaganda outlet that falsely translates videos. You'd want to be careful because knowingly posting propaganda is against the new T&C's

The institute was co-founded in 1998 by Yigal Carmon, a former Israeli military intelligence officer and Meyrav Wurmser, an Israeli-born, American political scientist. MEMRI states that its goal is to "bridge the language gap that exists between the Middle East and the West".

Brian Whitaker, the Middle East editor for The Guardian newspaper at the time, wrote in a public email debate with Carmon in 2003, that his problem with MEMRI was that it "poses as a research institute when it's basically a propaganda operation"

Earlier, Whitaker had charged that MEMRI's role was to "further the political agenda of Israel." and that MEMRI's website does not mention Carmon's employment for Israeli intelligence, or Meyrav Wurmser's political stance, which he described as an "extreme brand of Zionism"

highly selective in what it chooses to translate and in which context it puts things

en.wikipedia.org...

Norman Finkelstein Exposes MEMRI As Mossad Op

Stay ignorant, must be bliss for you.

Right back at ya

Ok then.... give us the 'real' translation then.....

Never said I have the translation, just gave the reasons why they can't be trusted, they have misrepresented and lied in the past, why should now be any different?

a reply to: BelowLowAnnouncement

Dear BelowLowAnnouncement,

That's an interesting thought. Thank you for that, it hadn't crossed my mind.

First, the facts that I have come from my source articles and a couple of others that say the same thing. You've got all the facts I do.

But the idea that Israel is saying "We want to end up with X% women dead, Y% men under 14 dead, and at least Z% men between the ages of 20 and 48 dead," Never occurred to me.

Just because I can't find any reason to fight that way, and I've never heard of it happening before, isn't absolutely proof that it isn't happening here. But I have to say that I'm just scratching my head and asking "What sense would that policy make?" And how would they know the ages of the people that died? Do they count as dead if they're badly wounded? And I can't believe that an army commander would say " Men, we've killed fewer women than our quota. Intelligence tells us that Reema's Burkha Boutique is having a sale today, go bomb that place flat and we'll be up to quota for women."

Or perhaps I've misunderstood you.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: combatmaster

Correct me if im wrong, but i was under the impression that gas reserves are spread throughout the entire area of the coastline of israel and gaza.... it is hard to belive that only under gaza lies gas

You are wrong

The BG Group drilled two wells in 2000: Gaza Marine-1 and Gaza Marine-2. Reserves are estimated by British Gas to be of the order of 1.4 trillion cubic feet, valued at approximately 4 billion dollars. These are the figures made public by British Gas. The size of Palestine’s gas reserves could be much larger.



I thought that you would know this as you claim to know everything about Gaza, telling people that you have to be there to see it....

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: charles1952

originally posted by: TinfoilTP
a reply to: charles1952

Awesome post, they can't lie their way around the numbers.

Wait.... they will accuse charles of being an 'infiltrator' lol.... or say the News is owned by the zionists! lol

You can never win!

I like to add an applause to charles for replying to every single post regardless of how pathetic and misguided some peoples views are... he must have a lot of patience!

Well done Charles!

He didn't reply to mine....

I guess it was just TOOO pathetic to point out that Israel has no rules for engagement.

a reply to: sosobad

I thought that you would know this as you claim to know everything about Gaza, telling people that you have to be there to see it....

never have i claimed such a remark. Only an ignorant fool would claim that they know 'everything' about a topic.

nevertheless, i was correct. gas IS spread out. how was i wrong?

what would putin do?

a reply to: SuperFrog

Yes, women and children have died. That is not proof they were targeted. Perhaps we have a language difficulty. For me "targeting" involves searching for a particular individual or type and adjusting fire to get that person ahead of a more legitimate target.

This should not be even topic - and it is just part of scam propaganda, most likely paid by Israel. It would not be the first time... World is not buying, tho...

As I suggested earlier, send an alert to the Mods, tell them that this shouldn't be a topic, and let me know what happens. As an aside, it's fascinating that you think that a New York Times analysis of data from a variety of sources (including Gaza) is Israeli propaganda. Please defend that assertion.

Tell me, what that tells you about one of most advanced army? Should they provide better vision (or IQ) test, as current one is aparantly very bad?! Is that on topic?

Do you think the Gazans are lined up in the open, and that Israeli gunners go down the line, one by one, identifying civilians and shooting them anyway? There is no reason for Israel to kill civilians, it does nothing for their cause. There is every reason for them to shell places that store weapons.

I'm sorry that I'm not able to communicate my ideas to you. Perhaps another poster would be more successful.

a reply to: combatmaster

never have i claimed such a remark.

Could have fooled me, the way you talk down to people that try to discuss Gaza without your approval

Only an ignorant fool would claim that they know 'everything' about a topic.

I'm glad you agree with me

nevertheless, i was correct. gas IS spread out. how was i wrong?

The issue of sovereignty over Gaza’s gas fields is crucial. From a legal standpoint, the gas reserves belong to Palestine.

www.globalresearch.ca...

So along with losing their land you want them to give up their natural resources now too?

what would putin do?

Haven't a clue, why don't you jump on to one of the many Russian threads to find out or better yet write him a letter.

a reply to: charles1952
Charles1952, thanks for the civil responses throughout this discussion.
Likewise, thanks for the information presented in the OP and further explanations thereafter.

In response to the OP - I believe the numbers presented affirm the premise that Israel is not targeting civilians, much less women & children.
IMO Israel is faced with the ages-old scenario of - "What do you do, if your enemy hides behind the skirts of the innocent?"
How many movies with the same plot line/dilemma?
If they had Steven Segal & Kurt Russell...maybe 'only the enemy' would be harmed.
But - when a plane full of "innocents" with a "bomb" and a handful of terrorists is bound to take out hundreds of thousands more innocents - decisions/choices must be made.
Take out the source - which will include innocents...or...twiddle your thumbs and hope/pray for a savior, risking the lives of many more (of your own) innocents... ?

Rough decisions.