For God so loveth the world...

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
What they wont like is when someone pointing out that in ezekiel, it is written that the animal sacrifices are prophesied to return in the distant future, after the yet-to-occur Gog magog war..

I'm sure you didn't bother to read the responses .... you've said as much. But I'll repost for those who actually do want to read what the fundamentalist Christian response is ... Millennial Animal Sacrifices

Most premillennial scholars agree that the purpose of animal sacrifice during the millennial kingdom is memorial in nature. As the Lord’s Supper is a reminder of the death of Christ to the Church today, animal sacrifices will be a reminder during the millennial kingdom. To those born during the millennial kingdom, animal sacrifices will again be an object lesson. During that future time, righteousness and holiness will prevail, but those with earthly bodies will still have a sin nature, and there will be a need to teach about how offensive sin is to a holy and righteous God. Animal sacrifices will serve that purpose, "but in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year" (Hebrews 10:3).

What the Catholics Say about Ezekiel

Catholic Theologians Discuss Ezekiels 'Vision' of The Temple and Sacrifices

This lengthy vision of a new Temple and a restored Israel is dated in v. 1 to April 28, 573 B.C. The literary form of the vision is sometimes compared to a mandala, a sacred model through which one can move symbolically to reach the world of the divine. Ezekiel describes the Temple through its boundaries, entrances, and exits in chaps. 40–43; by its sacred and profane use and space in 44–46; and by its central place within the land itself in 47–48. The prophet could not have expected a literal fulfillment of much of what he described. The passage doubtless went through several editorial stages, both from the prophet and from later writers.

Once again we see that reading scripture literally gets a person in trouble. Obviously there will be no literal fulfillment of this alleged prophecy. And we don't know if Ezekiel was supposedly getting this information from God, or if it was yet another case of man's idea of what was supposed to happen sneaking it's way into 'God told me it should be this way'. We see a lot of that through the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam).

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
"if you say you believe in Jesus you will receive the world for eternity",

Nope. That's not what it says at all. It says that if you believe in Him you will have everlasting life and not perish. That's SPIRITUAL ... not organic and Earthbound. Sorry, but the premise of this thread is wrong.

Well, even though John 3:16 is called the Little Bible, it's not the whole Bible obviously, and though I understand that handling more than one verse at a time (multitasking eh?) can be quite exhaustive for the usual meek Christian-- I would expect anyone who is discussing NT knows about the Sermon at Mount Olives, where Jesus delivers his speech explaining among other things that even the stupid ones (the meek) should feel lucky and blessed, for they will (if nothing else) inherit the Earth - "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth".

The general Christian reads this verse to mean that 'being meek' is an ideal and that inheriting the Earth is a good thing that should be sought after. It's not. It's the greed and the fear of being left out doing the thinking for them. Being stupid is and has always been stupid. Jesus pointed this out and further showing that even if you are stupid and hurled up in darkness, there is light in that darkness. Inheritance, even for the one with nothing to expect. But as the story goes: "The light shone in the darkness, but the darkness did not receive it". And that's the point of it all: Common Christians just don't get it.

And here's one for all of you.

We know that God loved the world to an extent that he gave is 'only begotten son' to it. It's like saying

"God so loved the dogs that he threw in his magic cat so that whosoever has faith in him should most likely be able to get laid. Atleast once in their life."

Alternate scripture, I know, but true still. Might I add that the magic cat has never lost to a single dog or any other living creature since the founder of the Earth got laid? He died once because of curiousity, but then someone came and said it was still alive after having checked Schrödinger with the latest developments in quantum mechanics. The magic cat is in a quantum state.

And Christian said: WTF? Quantum what? Is it alive or is it dead or what?
Upon which the genitor replied: Let's just say cats have nine lives, eh?
Christian: Ah. That explains it.

Wiki cat

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I think when it finally gets to the “CORE” of the meaning of this scripted data it will relate to basic Soul/Spirit/Internal Energy (beyond) flesh relocating associated with the Laws of Attraction mixed in with belief systems associated with the SON of the Guiding FATHER whomever they are labeled as in this day and time.
Also in relation to the Overseeing Angel who dwells outside of the LORDS kingdom but still within the LORDS eyes and who’s Soul/Spirit/Internal Energy attracts to its realm of existence (by default) due to ignoring the messages sent here to assist many in making it into that realm of FATHER/SON.

So as some Soul/Spirit/Internal Energies choose to doubt/ignore or avoid FATHERs GUIDES and SONS basic directions they may automatically be pulled or drift towards realm(s) (neither?) outside of regions where FATHER may want or wish for many Soul/Spirit/Internal Energies to return to. And thru time these regions have been channeled or sensed if not spiritually relayed to this side of existence as uncomfortable regions for Human souls especially if there are other Souls/Spirits/Internal Energies not of the human kind existing there who could care less about the well being of a human soul. So the scripted data though deceived by many men over time for manipulative practices of control may be trying to prevent some from falling into these regions which may seem like a hell for some who may encounter it. Following this subjective outlook it may be that the data is just a simple warning that some may follow and others may not, Utnapisjtim…

The Father-Son-Holy Ghost energies may interact in various aspects of EXISTENCE and so may be trying to prevent mankind/Soul energy from potential interactions that may be deemed uncomfortable for the...

NAMASTE*******

a reply to: Ophiuchus 13

The God with his spirits and lesser gods doesn't bother me, I let them do about with their usual business, and they let me alone for the most bit. However seeing all those people out there who rely on truths that don't hold water i.e. misconceptions centred around the biggest and longest living joke in the world, well, I choose Universal Truth above the lesser, conditional truth rooted in rhetorics and doctrine and dogma. Their existence relies on them believing a witness testimony or not. The testimony itself is arbitrary or at least secondary to them, it is the unconditional faith in the unseen, to believe without knowing or seeing which is the ideal archetype of the Christian Faith.

It's like this Jesus, after having been caught by Pilate for having stolen and joyriding a donkey through Jerusalem a while back, well, I know it's hard to stand trial, but bribery and buying witnesses isn't really accepted conduct. Believe in him with 'unconditional blind faith' (as opposed to unconditional truth), and he will love you with all his might and glory. Hehe, don't blame him though, guess he learned from the best. Go Jesus!

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The many lies and mis-truths does make it uneasy to study and accept some of the data presented Utnapisjtim. This is why 1 allows room always for change or updated information in hope to keep 1 on the proper spiritual track/path. I do see your points however with universal truth, just wish so much deception wasn't added for many may be potentially lost... if the data isn't transmitted correctly but maybe that is the plan as its can be easier to control those lost?
Thank GOD the finders GOD sent ANGELS seek out those lost and misplaced due to foolishness or ignorance overall placed upon the.

originally posted by: Toadmund
Trying to make sense of this statement, I understand that IF there is a god , god should understand our skepticism. But you make assumptions that god does exist by default and that anybody that questions gods existence one is getting closer to the truth of god, that god does exist.

I never said that questioning his existence, or deciding he doesn't exist, is bringing them closer to God. I said doing so is a way of loving God. You may not believe in him, and I never said that he exists. I said I believe he exists. I also believe that I have to cross my fingers whenever I have to pass under a signpost for luck, but that doesn't make it true for everyone.
I believe God gave us a mind. And by using that mind we are loving him in the way he wanted us to. Even if after looking at what evidence there is we end up denying his existence, it doesn't matter. We've thought and considered and pondered, and reached a conclusion based on what is right for us.

If we question gods existence, then by default we should assume the same for the billions of dollars worth of gold buried in your backyard, it's really there, you just have to believe in it hard enough, then every shovel load you dig out will get you that reward, eternal riches.

I'm not sure what the point of this statement is. I don't believe there's billions of dollars worth of gold in my garden, and I never stated that there was.

Maybe we have free will, because there is no grand puppet master up there controling anything.

Which is what I believe, as I said. He got the ball rolling then left us to it. Church teaches that God is a puppet master with a vague 'plan.' I believe he's just an observer, watching what happens the same way a researcher will observe an experiment.

Same thing as above, but different, but a doubter who does good deeds is not in it for the big reward, his ticket to heaven, but you would say they are questioning the existence of god, but by default he exists and therefore by using your 'god given brain' you assumed, 'no evidence, no god' is just an example of gods free will.

Again, I'm not really clear on what it is you're saying here. I will point out though, again, that I never once stated God existed as a fact. I stated that I believed he existed. There's a chance I'm right. There's a chance I'm wrong. Unlike many people, I'm not claiming to hold a special knowledge which the rest of humanity isn't worthy of. As I said in my OP, I've struggled with faith a lot. I've believed, half believed and not believed and, based on various things I've read or experienced, I've come to an independent accord with a system of a belief.
What anyone else believes, in terms of their faith, is entirely up to them. The point I was trying to make is that I believe that whatever it is we have faith in, God, science, Flying Spaghetti Monster, is okay. As long as you're not blindly believing it, and it's based on your own working out of whatever it is.

Conclusion, non-believers should believe because god gave us the capacity to doubt, therefore god is real.
Is that what you are saying here?

Absolutely not. What I'm saying is non-believers should not-believe without thinking about it. Similarly, believers shouldn't believe without thinking about it. The guy who says "I don't believe, because my parents didn't believe," is as bad as the guy who says "I believe because my parents believed."
Faith is a very personal thing. And there is no way one can understand one's faith if they haven't reasoned. To understand something, we must use reason. Faith cannot be taught from a pulpit. Faith cannot be preached by another human.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: Toadmund
As to your post: Free will is an illusion. Does anyone know of any one person who is not caught up in all kinds of responsibility relations being obliged to do this and that then and when? I honestly only know one such guy, and he is constantly wasted on drugs and alcohol, but then again, it's how he wants it. He exercises his free will. You have to give everyone the V and be a complete arse in order to exercise free will fully. And it won't make you popular. Free will you say? To beg on the street and eat out of trashcans?

Well, I have to disagree. I believe we do have free will, and the "obligations" of life are something which we are conditioned to abide by from childhood. From the very first time somebody told us "You're going to be late for school!" we have begun to go along with society's dance.
To be perfectly honest, each and every one of us could say, "Y'know. I don't feel like work today. And I don't wanna pay that mortgage. I'm packing up and moving to Fiji." The reason we don't is because we feel compelled to stick around and go to work to pay off the mortgage we didn't even want until we started working. Society and "civilisation" has worked very hard to strip us of our God Given Rights (legal, not spiritual, term) for the sole purpose of restricting our lives and impeding our free will.

a reply to: JackofBlades

Unlike many people, I'm not claiming to hold a special knowledge which the rest of humanity isn't worthy of.

As an atheist, I have never claimed this. I don't hold a special knowledge. In fact, the knowledge I hold is a knowledge you can find throughout numerous textbooks detailing the scientific method and its various applications and extensions and affiliations. Every study which dedicates itself to scientific methodology, which relies on objective techniques for examining our world. It's not special, it's not exclusive, and it's not reserved. It is open and free to all who have the eyes to look.

Unlike some "knowledge" I could mention.

Which is what I believe, as I said. He got the ball rolling then left us to it.

Why is that your opinion?

a reply to: Ophiuchus 13

BTW, I am not lost. I'm easily found and I know where I am. God knows exactly where he's got me. I am not the problem here, in fact there isn't a single personal person at all who is the problem. The problem is how for century after century soooo many people has been indoctrinated from their early years up into adulthood, to the extent that their whole cognitive presence in reality depends on that programmed bias, spelled exactly this or that way in order too work-- in order to live and have a meaningful life, eventhough they are now old enough and have read the book that supposedly is the reason for and the origin of the indoctrinated conditional half-truths, and should have understood after reading a few weeks in the Bible, that most of what their parents, sunday-school teachers and their pastors is bollocks. It doesn't rhyme well with the Good Book.

And then comes denial and all the defence mechanisms like circular logics, mass-euphoria, babbling incoherently and incomprehensibly, exercising their most renown quality, their cut and paste rhetorics, a linguistic parallel to Roman 'divide and conquer' which a smart monk came up with a thousand years ago, about the same time another monk put the vowels of Adonai in between the letters of the Tetragrammaton to produce Jehovah (and yes, no distinction between a and e in Hebrew before you jump up and scream your lungs out). Every letter and word is numbered and referenced. And this deceiving circular logic is the one thing that makes the Canon stand out from other religious texts. Go figure.

You can easily use the Bible to both justify or condemn genocide, the same book both orders and prohibit murder and deceit. That alone should ring a bell and light a few bulbs. But nooo. Let's shoot the messenger instead, right?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Never shoot the messenger my friend and I was by no ways calling you out as lost. The data written HAS to be approached with the mind state that some of the stories have been miswritten or deleted to misguide the masses this 1 does not disagree with you on. To 1 there does exist some TRUTH that has not been able to be written out with reference to the FATHER over us and the SON of the. Now who the names are can be an argument/discussion within in itself, but 1 does feel there is a FATHER and SON who interact here with mankind who do care. What they look like or who they represent is another OP

a reply to: Ophiuchus 13

I see the 1 as the Monad and Keter or even Daath. 1 is origin and all, and the target and the path. 1 is omnious, unique, and everything comes from 1, just like everything adds up to 1. 1 is the prime vector, the pivot of existence. But 1 is also loneliness and being unique means it doesn't find it's match anywhere, until it sees 0 and becomes 1 again as the Dyad, soon the Triad and 1 1 1 -- One Won One -- again. From 1 to infinity, in 1.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Jesus delivers his speech explaining among other things that even the stupid ones (the meek) should feel lucky and blessed, for they will (if nothing else) inherit the Earth - "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth".

Jesus uses the same word (in the Greek) twice in Matthew to describe himself ("Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." and "Say to Daughter Zion, 'See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.'") so I doubt that he meant that his audience was stupid.

But as the story goes: "The light shone in the darkness, but the darkness did not receive it". And that's the point of it all: Common Christians just don't get it.

The context of that saying is about what happened before Jesus came, and why he had to come, to place the truth in a way that people could understand.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

And here's one for all of you.

We know that God loved the world to an extent that he gave is 'only begotten son' to it. It's like saying . . .

I think Jesus was filling in the definition of what he meant when he said, "I have not come to destroy the Law and the Prophets".
He was saying what part of it he was there to make sure is fulfilled.
So I am saying the one part (of his sermon) makes no sense without the other.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
I doubt that he meant that his audience was stupid.

You said it man. I never said that Jesus his audience were stupid. That would have been really stupid, wouldn't it? May I suggest you take a course in "How to understand basic English". I said that Jesus said, that even the stupid people have something to be truely happy about. One day they'll be part of something really big and meaningful that is the One most valuable thing in existence that we know about: You will become dirt and be an integral part of the Earth. Nw that's something, isn't it? Atleast we won't die for nothing, eh?

a reply to: jmdewey60

How do you fulfill a law. I hear you moan about it all the time, but noone have actually been able to explain how it is possible to fulfill a law. Only way I can see the Torah could become useless, is if this whole universe dissapears in a puff of logic. Hm. Maybe THAT's what's the bugger is planning. To consume the world in fire and brimstone. Oh, it already says that in the book, I forgot.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

You will become dirt and be an integral part of the Earth.

That's not what "inherit" means.
He means to take possession of the earth.
Abraham's seed was supposed to inherit the land, and Jesus was redefining who those people were, while maintaining the general concept spelled out in the Law (the first five books of the Bible).

How do you fulfill a law.

see my comment above.

To consume the world in fire and brimstone. Oh, it already says that in the book, I forgot.

It doesn't say that.

The "Law", as in the actual commandments contained in that great scroll, is filled up (the literal meaning of the word) by Jesus explaining them, how it is about compassion to others rather than a bunch of priestly temple ceremonies.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

You will become dirt and be an integral part of the Earth.

That's not what "inherit" means.
He means to take possession of the earth.

Hehe, we are talking about stupid ("meek" means stupid, look it up) people here. Are you saying that Jesus said idiots would take possession of the Earth? Makes sense. He was absolutely right. They also fill up his churches it seems. Blessed are the blind for they don't have to see the horrors this world is full of. Lucky are the deaf, for they don't have to hear the false prophets yell. Blessed are the dead, their hair wont turn grey here on ATS.

a reply to: AfterInfinity

riiiight… let's take a verse and parse it however we choose and leave out the macro picture of free will and the laws of creation… you know, something called CONTEXT…

and anyway, it is not the same thing. satan was offering material trinkets in comparison to eternal life.

first decide: is their a God? statistically, VERY LIKELY.
youtube: The Case For A Creator With Lee Strobel
www.youtube.com...
The Fossil Record Speaks
www.youtube.com...

then decide: did Jesus exist and perform miracles. Historically: YES.
Jesus: Evidence, ancient historical sources Prof. Greenleaf, Harvard
youtu.be...

HAve there been people fabricating B.S. texts to distract and created confusion, right to the supernaturally "channeled" works of Madame Blavatsky's and Alice Bailey's of the world and their "Lucifer Trust Publishing company? YES
Does the UN and the Divining Snake VATICAN support ALL the gnostic/NEw Age B.S.: YES De Chardin was the originator, as were supernatural agents.
“There have always been defective seeds. In the past they were permitted to die a natural death...We, the elders have been patiently waiting...to take action to cut out this corrupted and corrupting element in the body of humanity.”
--New Age author and influencer of rich/famous: Barbara Marx Hubbard (her spirit guides told her 1/4 are defective seeds: the destructive 1/4 must be eliminated...)

“No one will enter the New World Order unless he or she will make a pledge to worship Lucifer. No one will enter the New Age unless he will take a Luciferian Initiation.”
--David Spangler, Director of Plantary Initiative, UN

“See my lord, from this room--from this room I govern not only Paris, but China, not only China, but the whole world, without anyone knowing how ‘tis managed.”
Michael Angelo Tamburni, 1720, Jesuit General, Speaking to the Duke of Brancas
Source: History of the Jesuits, Andrew Steinmetz, vol. 1, p. 107

“It is curious to note too that most of the bodies which work these, such as the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, the Rite of Avignon, the Order of the Temple, Fesslor’s Rite, the ‘Grand Council of the Emperors of the East and West Sovereign Prince Masons’, etc etc, are nearly all the offspring of the sons of Ignatius Loyola. The Baron Hundt, Chevalier Ramsey, Tschoudy, Zinnendorf, and numerous others, who founded the grades in these rites, worked under instruction from the general of the Jesuits...”
“Isis Unveiled,” H.P. Blavatsky, p. 390

“Now we have to remember that Shiva and the palestinian baal, or moloch, and saturn are identical.”
Madame Blavatsky, Isis unveiled, vol. 1, p578 (also stated in Satanic Bible)

and do pagan systems all take the same general form? YES

from shamans to occultists, they all access the supernatural using similar modalities of "altered states" mystery teachings, goddess worship, BLOOD SACRIFICING, pyramids, etc

and they all generally profess to believing in one God above them all, but they all prefer to worship the gods via occult ritual because they get results quicker and become enslaved by the evil systems they create…

2,000 years ago, when there were only around 200 million people on the planet, people came from around the word to worship at God's temple in Jerusalem, because it was widely known there was one Creator above all…

free will: you can choose to worship the created rather than the Creator. "Ye are gods…but will die like men." Psalms

THE TWO BABYLONS, A. Hislop pdf

"Though Brahma, according to the sacred books, is the first person of the Hindoo Triad, and the religion of Hindostan is called by his name, yet he is never worshipped, and there is scarcely a single Temple in all India now in existence of those that were formerly erected to his honor." p19

a reply to: Utnapisjtim Thank You,i have wondered about that for years!