For God so loveth the world...

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

The things you mention is a very minuscule part of the Bible, and it's called common sense. But most of it's pages extrapolate in all kinds of evil and wrongdoing, and war criminals are celebrated as heroes and righteous men.

For instance: It is a common misconception among Christians that because of a dubious interpretation of the Prophets and the Apocalypse-- the Antichrist shall bring peace in the ME, therefore any attempt at sorting out peace agreements and -settlements in ME and elsewhere, are seen as demonic and satanic, and the envoys have to live with accusations from Christians that the peacemakers are antichrists and Satan. And that's just one example. Israel gets away with war crimes and racism and apartheid on a grand and industrial scale. Ah, but they are God's people.

a reply to: AfterInfinity

Text I'm particularly enjoying how you pointed out that both Satan and Jesus offer the same exact thing for the same exact price. A most curious overlap, that is.

How do you arrive at that conclusion Afterinfinity?
Are you saying that the scriptures teach that Satan offers a kingdom in heaven for the human race? You did say that you enjoy this misguided conception which Utnapisjtim has shown you.

The thing that Jesus knew, and which apparently you and Utnapisjtim do not realize, is that what Satan offered was not his to give and that also what Satan offered was of this world. Satan did not offer the celestial world of which he was deposed but offered this world which will be destroyed. God knew that in offering His begotten Son that He offered those who do believe that Jesus is the begotten of God will inherit the celestial world and not this world. The thread as is proposed is not true.

a reply to: Seede

Who are you to stand in God's place and accuse your neighbour whom you obviously donot understand? How do you know what God knows and thinks? And what is the difference between being rewarded eternal life contra all the kingdoms of the world? That's irrelevant. What IS relevant here is that there are unimaginable rewards for WORSHIP of either Satan or God.

The solution to this riddled "coincidence" is that you can't have one without the other. Satan is kinda like God's shadow. So I don't worship either really, I never did, and if I did, why would that be anything to write home about? I love the Bible more than any other book, but if I worshipped any of the gods inside the book, all the work I have put down in it would all be seductive expressions of disqualifying folly.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

And what is the difference between being rewarded eternal life contra all the kingdoms of the world? That's irrelevant. What IS relevant here is that there are unimaginable rewards for WORSHIP of either Satan or God.

Only one person (at least at one time) can be King of the World.
Any number of people can be given eternal live (at least in theory, meaning if what the New Testament says about the subject is true).
As far as I know, we as individuals are not being offered eternal life or kingship of the world by Satan.
I see "Satan" as a personification of having your attention diverted off from God and to the concerns of life to the point of distraction (or to the willingness to commit flat-out evil in the pursuit of those worldly obsessions).

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

And what is the difference between being rewarded eternal life contra all the kingdoms of the world? That's irrelevant. What IS relevant here is that there are unimaginable rewards for WORSHIP of either Satan or God.

Any number of people can be given eternal live (at least in theory, meaning if what the New Testament says about the subject is true).

So if you worship God you would have to toil through the big bang and all manner of preparations and creations, you would have to exist before God turned the light on, and you would have to see the moment God himself came into existence, that too was a moment in this 'time infinitum'. That would make you about as old as the Spirit of God... Who are you other than a person who worships for a price? -- "There is no peace", says my God, "for the wicked."

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

So if you worship God you would have to toil through the big bang and all manner of preparations and creations, you would have to exist before God turned the light on, and you would have to see the moment God himself came into existence, that too was a moment in this 'time infinitum'. That would make you about as old as the Spirit of God...

"Age" would be the function of a quantity of action.
If you were a god who was very involved in the creations of worlds, for example, you would be aged by those activities, being exposed to the movement of time in all those physical changes.
On the other hand, if you were a person, not a god, and lounged about in a virtual time bubble, unaffected by the vagaries of physical changes, for example not even observing the transits of heavenly bodies, we wouldn't age and would be virtual children.

Who are you other than a person who worships for a price? -- "There is no peace", says my God, "for the wicked."

This would be true if "worshiping" actually cost us something.
What we need is to recognize that God, from His perspective, knows what is best for us, as to how we treat others and how we live ourselves as to what is spiritually healthy.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: Agree2Disagree

The things you mention is a very minuscule part of the Bible, and it's called common sense. But most of it's pages extrapolate in all kinds of evil and wrongdoing, and war criminals are celebrated as heroes and righteous men.
.

Not quite....

The entire NT doesn't seem "minuscule" to me...and obviously a lot of individuals on this planet lack "common sense"...

Besides, even within the OT, Gen4- Cain and Abel for example, we see acts of violence, but we see no encouragement to "go and do likewise". When we read of David's adulterous encounters with Bathsheba and his encounters with Uriah, we're left with this very clear text....“the thing David had done displeased the LORD”

Although I confess there are violent acts that SEEM to be sanctioned in biblical text...it's very important that we as modern day Christ followers do not endorse texts such as those...We serve the Prince of Peace and have a moral obligation to object to violence.

And although I find it concerning that there ARE such violent acts, I also have to remind myself that divine judgment cannot simply be thrown out the window. The circumstances and precise happenings of many events mentioned aren't entirely accurate, they are simply a portrait.

A certain "thrust" of the bible is that sin emerged when man decided he had the authority to judge "right and wrong"...Our concept of "right and wrong" is not necessarily correct(As Eve thought it was "right" to eat of the fruit but God did not)...In fact, we have evidence that "right and wrong" are not universal, at least not when it comes to man's understanding and application of the concept...

A2D

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Text Who are you to stand in God's place and accuse your neighbour whom you obviously donot understand? How do you know what God knows and thinks? And what is the difference between being rewarded eternal life contra all the kingdoms of the world? That's irrelevant

You seem to be very defensive and irritated. I do not stand in God's place. You are ridiculous and cannot comprehend what you read. How do I know what God knows? I do not know what God knows and never implied that I do. How do i know His revelations to His children? By reading and comprehending what I read. And why is it irrelevant in Satan offering the creator a portion of His own creation in comparison to the Creator offering His children a portion of His eternal life? That in itself is self explanatory is it not? The substance offered by Satan is terrestrial while the substance offered by God is celestial. The terrestrial cannot mingle with the celestial as is shown that flesh and blood cannot enter the realm of God. That is what is relevant.

Text What IS relevant here is that there are unimaginable rewards for WORSHIP of either Satan or God.

Yes there certainly are unimaginable rewards for worship of Satan or the Father God. That is said correctly but without any comprehension in your mentality. Satan is not the shadow of God but is a creation of God. Your misunderstanding is in plain view of the audience that you hope to encourage with your foolishness.

Text I love the Bible more than any other book, but if I worshipped any of the gods inside the book, all the work I have put down in it would all be seductive expressions of disqualifying folly.

Once again you have exposed that your pride comes before your fall. If you were to worship the one and only true God who is penned inside the book then your work would most certainly be seductive expressions which most certainly would be of disqualifying folly. Yes that is most certainly true but without repenting your folly you most certainly will become ashes upon the heap of eternal damnation. You can no longer plead your case once your breath has ended but God gives you breath to repent and accept eternal celestial life. The choice is yours and not mine to judge. Judge yourself as it is written and then comes wisdom to repent.

a reply to: jmdewey60

Hmmm. I am arriving late in the thread, but:

This would be true if "worshiping" actually cost us something.

Fist, there's that whole word worship…"wor- ship," worth considering, I think, but maybe I shouldn't--think, that is…

Then, there's the substance of what you've written, here. For, IDK, but it definitely cost me something…it didn't you?
Really?

a reply to: tetra50

…it didn't you?

You're making vague allusions to something, but I'm not sure what your problem is with what I wrote.

Utnapisjtim was making a suggestion that there is a transaction implied, between a person and some deity that was selling something.
The implication being that the payment was in "worship".
My point is that if you were worshiping God, then there was actually a net benefit to yourself instead of a net deficit.

I suppose that you had a different experience, that it cost you wasted time in being confused and trying to sort it out.
Well, there are false gods aplenty, as Paul put it.

a reply to: jmdewey60
point taken. I admit I haven't read everything. Simply was replying to your pertinent comment about worship costing us something. Sorry if I have offended. I think within that context my intent should be clear. If not, I will gladly explain in a U2U, so as not to hijack the thread over it…
Tetra

a reply to: tetra50

Sorry if I have offended.

I just get offended by people who criticize the way I format my posts.
I take pride in how I make them. (I notice you make nice posts with actual grammar)
My opinions are obviously subject to criticism, which I welcome.

. (I notice you make nice posts with actual grammar)

a reply to: jmdewey60
I am seriously LOL….

than k you so much for that, yes, I try….
tetra

Hey you replied to my thread, and I so much appreciated your taking care, reading, and listening…..for whatever that's worth, sincerely…and I always star your posts, whatever that's worth, too….I think we are both of like minds, and after the same kind of "faith", if I've expressed that well enough. I liked in my thread that you were receptive to and cognizant of the whole "spun history" thing, which is what I was truly getting at, in that thread.

thanks, so much.

Reply to: Agree2Disagree

So if a war criminal is standing trial in Haag for a handful genocides, and he delivers a speech about love and forgiveness, the tribunal should immediately set him free since he has obviously changed into a better man? Help me here.

ETA: Updated correct post reference

originally posted by: Seede

I do not stand in God's place. You are ridiculous and cannot comprehend what you read. How do I know what God knows? I do not know what God knows and never implied that I do.

You said: "The thing that Jesus knew...." and "God knew....."

How can you be so certain and know exactly what other people, or yet even more rediculous, God and his Begotten-- know or intend to do without standing in their place? Or do you have a copy of God's Plan? If so, I'd like to buy it from you. 20 quid and all the stars to the left in the sky. And if you worship me, I throw in a nice spot on the Sun for your afterlife.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

So if a war criminal is standing trial in Haag for a handful genocides, and he delivers a speech about love and forgiveness, the tribunal should immediately set him free since he has obviously changed into a better man?

I don't see how that has anything to do with what I said.
You may be thinking of an earlier conversation when I was discussing the concept of repentance.
I think that you can see how this factors in, by looking at criminal sentencing, early releases, and paroles.
I wouldn't argue so much that repentance forces God to forgive someone, but rather that not repenting would negate the possibility of forgiveness.

a reply to: tetra50

I'd say worship would be the stage beyond swearing allegiance, more like selling your soul, no wait, give it away for nothing to this ancient entity called God nobody has been able to prove the existence of. And though people have been worshipping him for thousands of years, none of them got the eternal life they were promised in return. And the only Earth their children inherited, if you can call it inheritance, is a world that will burn to crap within a few centuries from now, maybe even sooner. Some bargain.

If I was to testify in the case world vs. Jesus, my testimony would have been void and invalid, if it turned out that I had taken bribes from Jesus' father.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

So if a war criminal is standing trial in Haag for a handful genocides, and he delivers a speech about love and forgiveness, the tribunal should immediately set him free since he has obviously changed into a better man?

I don't see how that has anything to do with what I said.

And you are absolutely correct, don't know how it happened, but the post ref was wrong. Sorry, think I managed to fix it.

ETA This is the correct ref: Agree2Disagree I hope

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

And though people have been worshiping him for thousands of years, none of them got the eternal life they were promised in return.

The Kingdom of God is imperishable.
1 Corinthians 15:50
I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
(2011 NIV)
So you could say that His kingdom is eternal.
Then if you are the inheritor of the kingdom (being a metaphor of the way that you were a member of the old covenant kingdom of God by being born of one of the appropriate tribes), you live in it, and that life you live in it as a member in good standing has a certain quality to it that is indicative of that imperishability.

So you have "eternal life", as Jesus said,
John 5:24
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
(2011 NIV)

a reply to: jmdewey60

The Romans came to Elysium, the Germanics came to Valhalla and so on. Field of Reeds, Nirvana, Utopia, the Bosom of Abraham -- plenty of these places, it's not unique to Christendom. It's the nature of life. And given there is eternal life for those who believe, wouldn't that mean that the serpent was right afterall when he said “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” And what happens to God and his “You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.”???