peace of Jerusalem

Now here are a few more pice of the temple and area for corroboration:

PhilWhaley71

"The only exposed bedrock on Zion is the rock exposed under the Dome of the Rock.

ON the Haram esh-Sharif."

The Jewish Temple was never located in the Haram.
But there was a rock that was a feature of Fort Antonia and later of the Dome of the Rock.
Mt. Zion and the Haram are separate locations.

The "rock" which was a "feature" of the Antonia was a cliff rising to one of the sides of it, at the edge of which the first (low) wall of the Antonia was built. Which "cliff" leads up to the Haram? That information about the cliff leading up to the Antonia comes from Josephus.

allthings2allmen
There are topographical elevations of the first temple and the second temple for anyone really interested in the facts. Since the ground was not flat a retaining wall was built up and filled with rubble to create a flat platform upon which the temple was built.

Yes, I'd be interested. Mapping is one of the things I do, and I've not found any of the elevation data for that area finer than a 90m post spacing (SRTM level 3). If you have data with finer resolution than that, I'd be very interested. I've already got all the software necessary to work with it.

The only alternative I can think of is to get a finer topographic map and create the DEM data myself from it, which I'm working on.

PhilWhaley71

"The only exposed bedrock on Zion is the rock exposed under the Dome of the Rock."

The ground level was a lot lower 2000 years ago.

In the Tyropean Valley it was. That area was used as a trash dump, resulting in around 20 feet of filling in. On the ridges, not so much. It's a moot point concerning the Haram, however. That platform is at the same level as it was in Herod's time.

Archaeology begs to differ -


7 No archaeological authority has been able to count all the stones of the four walls surrounding the Haram esh-Sharif because many of the stones are still hidden from view. But at the holy site at the Western Wall (often called the “Wailing Wall”) there are seven courses presently visible within that 197 foot length of the wall in the north/south exposure. That section contains about 450 Herodian stones. There are, however, eight more courses of Herodian stones underneath the soil down to the ground level that existed in the time of Herod and Jesus. Below that former ground level, there are a further nine courses of foundation stones. If that whole section of the “Wailing Wall” could be exposed, one could no doubt count around 1250 Herodian stones (probably more) of various sizes. Most stones are about three to four feet high and three feet to twelve feet long, but there are varying lengths up to 40 feet, with the larger stones weighing about 70 tons. One stone has been found in the Western Wall that has the collossal weight of 400 tons (Meir Ben-Dov, Mordechai Naor, and Zeev Aner, The Western Wall, pp.61,215). To extend by extrapolation the number of stones making up the eastern, southern and western walls surrounding the Haram (there is little left of the northern wall), there has to be about 8 to 10,000 Herodian and pre-Herodian stones still in place as they were some 2000 years ago. Here I will state the number as 10,000 stones, but (as all should realize) this is simply and educated guess. The number, no matter what, is prodigious. All these stones in those four walls survived the Roman/Jewish War of 66-73 C.E.

Fort Antonia which was reinforced by Herod was formerly known as the Baris. It has always been a military fort and only Roman temples were located there until the Muslims erected their prayer houses. No Jewish temples because no Jew would set foot on it or even spit on it. Now they kiss it like it was the shekina glory.

reply to post by allthings2allmen

Make no mistake nothing is holy to me nI just want to defuse this bomb. Think of me as the bomb squad.

Don't worry, I have never thought there was anything holy to you.

Why, then, in other threads do you say things like you were prophesied, you have power to raise the dead and cure cancer, make people "drop dead", can turn invisible, and you have a "scribe" to record you holy words of the spirit?

How does this one thread on an internet forum "diffuse the bomb" of the Zionists you rail against and of the temple being in the wrong place??

Do you think the world will heed your words on just one of thousands of boards out there?

PhilWhaley71
Archaeology begs to differ -

They can beg all they like, and it still won't change the elevation of the Haram platform, just as I said. An earthquake might, and may have, but if so it changed the elevation of the entire ridge.

The platform is at the same elevation it has always been. It has not collapsed and fallen, nor is it covered in 20 feet of detrius. The rock is at the same elevation it has always been. It's part of the bedrock of the ridge. In order for it to have sunken or raised, the entire ridge will have had to have done so.

The main difference in the topography between then and now is the Tyropean Valley, which is more shallow due to centuries of detrius infilling it. It's likely that ALL of the valleys are somewhat more shallow now (to a lesser degree than the purposely infilled Tyropean), because crap flows down hill - and doesn't much collect on ridges.

P.S. - do you have a source for your quote, or is that all from you?

allthings2allmen
Fort Antonia which was reinforced by Herod was formerly known as the Baris. It has always been a military fort and only Roman temples were located there until the Muslims erected their prayer houses. No Jewish temples because no Jew would set foot on it or even spit on it. Now they kiss it like it was the shekina glory.

OR - no Jewish temples because the Romans razed the Jewish temple, erased it.

Yes, the Antonia was the Birah or "Beris", and has been a fortified strong point for centuries before Herod renovated it and renamed it after Marc Antony.

It was also razed to the ground by Titus (actually by Vespasian, under orders from Titus) in 70 AD during the siege, preparatory to the attack on the temple complex. he had it destroyed to allow passage of seige materials for the assault on the temple.

There was ONE Roman temple on the Haram - a temple to Jupiter Capitolinus, built by Hadrian in 130 AD. This was the temple that caused the Bar Kochba Revolt.

In 363, AD, Julian gave permission for the Jews to rebuild their temple there. Work began, but was halted by the Galilee Earthquake of 363, during which many of the workmen were killed, and work was never resumed.

A Byzantine church or monastery was constructed there as well, shown by an elaborate Byzantine mosaic floor discovered there.

In 610, Jewish rabbis restarted the sacrifice there for the first time since the destruction of the Second Temple, and they began reconstruction of the temple under the Persian Sassanids. In 615, the Sassanids gave control of the area to the Christians, who promptly tore down the beginnings of the temple and started using the platform as a garbage dump.

That is the condition it was in when Umar took the city in the 630's AD. The reason it was turned into a dump by the Christians is that they seemed to see the missing temple as some sort of "victory" for Christianity, and were offended at reconstruction attempts.

Umar cleared the trash, cleaned the platform, and built the original "Dome of the Rock" around the rock which had been in the Holy of Holies of the Jewish temple. That original structure was later replaced by a more resplendent one, which we see today. Al Aqsa Mosue was built on the ruins of the Jewish hanuyot, "shops", a sort of enclosed bazaar during New testament times.

The Templars occupied it during the Crusades, from whence they take their name.

It has an unbroken history up to this date. Their is no question of it being the Antonia. It doesn't even fit any of the descriptions of the Antonia.

Chamberf=6
reply to post by allthings2allmen

 

Make no mistake nothing is holy to me nI just want to defuse this bomb. Think of me as the bomb squad.

Don't worry, I have never thought there was anything holy to you.

Why, then, in other threads do you say things like you were prophesied, you have power to raise the dead and cure cancer, make people "drop dead", can turn invisible, and you have a "scribe" to record you holy words of the spirit?

How does this one thread on an internet forum "diffuse the bomb" of the Zionists you rail against and of the temple being in the wrong place??

Do you think the world will heed your words on just one of thousands of boards out there?

edit on 3/11/2014 by Chamberf=6 because: (no reason given)

CHIRAM: Seems our Prophet Elijah goes by other names on the internet i.e. Dean Ferguson AKA The Son of God.

Welcome to the recent arrivals to Threebridges Healing Centre page, this page is run by The Son of God. There is only ONE GOD, ONE CREATOR of the Universe and that is Myself, All others who claim this title are false prophets, imposters and liars. Each will suffer the WRATH from the cup of my indignation when the execution of my Judgement begins.

All religions and their leaders will be destroyed as I promised when I was the messenger "Yeshua" who lived in biblical times & is the one known to you as Jesus. This was actually a metaphorical name for his future incarnation, which is Myself, I am your Jesus.

The material posted on Threebridges Healing Centre page is done so by the hand of God. All the Laws stated here will come into effect after My World Wide Announcement that I Dean Ferguson the Son of God have returned to usher in the new age. That announcement will be when I am Good & ready. I will be ready after I have judged all of mankind & is the purpose for me being on facebook.

The posts on this page may confuse you as these posts are actually made for those remaining after the great Shift of Consciousness in the near future. After this event, these posts and their content will become coherent to the reader. The Laws stated here in will become activated and anyone breaking them will attract swift execution of punishment. Source:

The wording in the above paragraphs leads one to believe it’s somehow connected with Dr Courtney Brown’s “Announcement and Event” on 15th March.

Dean Ferguson’s website which includes Courtney Brown’s ‘Announcement’ and postings Here:

Hahahaha – the writings of a deranged person. ('')

"P.S. - do you have a source for your quote, or is that all from you?"

The clips are from The Temples that Jerusalem Forgot by Dr. Ernest L. Martin

It is the land where Jesus was crucified , why be surprised ?
Still the same old scenario of 'coneheads' and their 'advisers' ;
killing off everyone who opposes satan's empire.
Change will happen only when
people come to embrace truth and finally stop being afraid of the snakes.

Thanks for the cool cup of water ToneDeaf

----------------------------

Breaking - Freedom Waves to Gaza ship boarded by Israeli Military

(Israeli military illegally boards humanitarian aid vessels to palestine and detains crews)

"They can beg all they like, and it still won't change the elevation of the Haram platform, just as I said. An earthquake might, and may have, but if so it changed the elevation of the entire ridge.

The platform is at the same elevation it has always been. It has not collapsed and fallen, nor is it covered in 20 feet of detrius. The rock is at the same elevation it has always been. It's part of the bedrock of the ridge. In order for it to have sunken or raised, the entire ridge will have had to have done so."

Ok I see where our conversation got derailed. I was never talking about the height of the Haram's walls, but the height of the ground.

From The Temples that Jerusalem Forgot:

But at the holy site at the Western Wall (often called the “Wailing Wall”) there are seven courses presently visible within that 197 foot length of the wall in the north/south exposure. That section contains about 450 Herodian stones. There are, however, eight more courses of Herodian stones underneath the soil down to the ground level that existed in the time of Herod and Jesus. Below that former ground level, there are a further nine courses of foundation stones. If that whole section of the “Wailing Wall” could be exposed, one could no doubt count around 1250 Herodian stones (probably more) of various sizes.

So right, the Haram was not destroyed but was left as a symbol of the Roman victory over Israel. The Haram was not considered a part of the City of Jerusalem at all.

If you'll indulge me I'd like to add another clip from Wars of the Jews by Josephus. This is a quote by Eleazar who was the Jewish commander at Masada:

“And where is now that great city [Jerusalem], the metropolis of the Jewish nation, which was fortified by so many walls round about, which had so many fortresses and large towers to defend it, which could hardly contain the instruments prepared for the war, and which had so many ten thousands of men to fight for it? Where is this city that was believed to have God himself inhabiting therein? It is now demolished to the very foundations, and hath nothing left but THAT MONUMENT of it preserved, I mean THE CAMP OF THOSE [the Romans] that hath destroyed it, WHICH [CAMP] STILL DWELLS UPON IT’S RUINS; some unfortunate old men also lie upon the ashes of the Temple [then in total ruins--burnt to ashes], and a few women are there preserved alive by the enemy, for our bitter shame and reproach.”

B.T.W. there is a Hebrew version of Josephus called Josippon that has even more information.

reply to post by ToneDeaf


The real crown is the crown of glory which is the mind of Christ. You think like christ you talk like Christ and basically you are Christ. To the question who died and made you God the answer is Christ did. Christ means anointed. So some get anointed and others do not. I respond to your post like Christ would. He said don't you know that you are Gods?

reply to post by PhilWhaley71


Thank you. Much better!

PhilWhaley71


Ok I see where our conversation got derailed. I was never talking about the height of the Haram's walls, but the height of the ground.

I wasn't talking about the height of the walls, either - I ws talking about the fact that the Haram's platform is at the same elevation as always, without excessive detrius collected upon it to raise the surface level of it. I grew up in mountains the same as Sigmund did, and know from observation that the material on the ridges thins (until one gets to bedrock, at which time the thinning slows considerably) and slides downhill via gravity to collect in thicker layers in the valley bottoms. The main difference is that in Sigmund's case, those mountains are still rising, being uplifted, and in my case the mountains are far older, have stopped rising, and are being slowly worn away, ground down.

From The Temples that Jerusalem Forgot:


..........

But at the holy site at the Western Wall (often called the “Wailing Wall”) there are seven courses presently visible within that 197 foot length of the wall in the north/south exposure. That section contains about 450 Herodian stones. There are, however, eight more courses of Herodian stones underneath the soil down to the ground level that existed in the time of Herod and Jesus. Below that former ground level, there are a further nine courses of foundation stones. If that whole section of the “Wailing Wall” could be exposed, one could no doubt count around 1250 Herodian stones (probably more) of various sizes.

............

So right, the Haram was not destroyed but was left as a symbol of the Roman victory over Israel. The Haram was not considered a part of the City of Jerusalem at all.

Yeah! Now THAT'S the way to attribute a quote! In order to re-quote it and keep it in the quoted text, I had to change your quote tags to a line of dots to retain it - otherwise, nested quotes just disappear in responses.

I've already conceded that the Haram was not a part of Jerusalem, and was a separate district. the reason for that is that it originally laid outside the City, to the north of the City of David / Jebus (earlier "Salem"), and the city eventually expanded around it. It still retained it's separate status through all of that. It was separate in David's time (when he built an altar there), in Solomon's time (when he built a temple there), and all through time. Herod's expansion of the platform area and renovation of the second temple did not change that. it was always separate, and even today continues to be separate, being administered by "foreigners" in the offices of the Waqf. It is STILL not a part of Jerusalem, and never was.

If you'll indulge me I'd like to add another clip from Wars of the Jews by Josephus. This is a quote by Eleazar who was the Jewish commander at Masada:


............

“And where is now that great city [Jerusalem], the metropolis of the Jewish nation, which was fortified by so many walls round about, which had so many fortresses and large towers to defend it, which could hardly contain the instruments prepared for the war, and which had so many ten thousands of men to fight for it? Where is this city that was believed to have God himself inhabiting therein? It is now demolished to the very foundations, and hath nothing left but THAT MONUMENT of it preserved, I mean THE CAMP OF THOSE [the Romans] that hath destroyed it, WHICH [CAMP] STILL DWELLS UPON IT’S RUINS; some unfortunate old men also lie upon the ashes of the Temple [then in total ruins--burnt to ashes], and a few women are there preserved alive by the enemy, for our bitter shame and reproach.”

............

B.T.W. there is a Hebrew version of Josephus called Josippon that has even more information.

I have no quarrel with that, as it's written. It seems clear to me that the Haram is NOT the Roman camp, else there would still be a Roman fort there. That doesn't preclude it being the Antonia, since the Antonia was also destroyed by the Romans. I have other reasons, as stated above, for being convinced it was not the Antonia, however. There are other reasons, not the least of which is the un-fortress-like character of the Haram. Romans were very good at what they did - military destruction of their enemies - and would have been capable of engineering a far more fortress-like fortress. it's unlikely that they would have taken over a foreign fort without fortifying it to their own standards, which is not exhibited in the Haram.

The Haram is ar too permeable, too accessible, to ever have been a fortress.

There are many editions of Josephus, some with additions, some with later edits. My favorite is probably the Slavonic "additions". They seem to have taken a core of original text and "elaborated" upon it in a very un-Josephus like manner. For example, the phrase "if man he truly was" seems very out of character for Josephus, but the "enhancement" doesn't invalidate the core report of that passage.

Fort Antonia was a defensible position but Herod reinforced it by adding long slabs of stone that made approaching the wall difficult and by creating a moat on the north side which was flooded with water. Now it makes sense that the tenth legion that destroyed Jerusalem still needed a place to sleep and eat after a long days destroying the city and the temple . When the rumor was spread that the tons of Gold in the temple had melted into the the mound which was quite porous the mound itself was raised down to bed rock by those looking for the gold. Sherlock asks Watson on a camping trip what do you see? Watson says I see millions of stars and waxing poetic says it makes me wonder about the universe and our place in it. No you idiot somebody stole our tent.

The Haram had to house 6-10 thousand soldiers and 6000 support staff. The tiny little square inside the haram that modern scholars portray it as could not possibly house that many people. And again the Jewish Temple had to be located by a spring to wash away the animal sacrifices. It's the Christians and the Jews that propagate the false Temple location hoax, ask the Palestinians and they don't believe it.

So, are you one of those people that says Josephus exaggerated or lied?

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