peace of Jerusalem

PhilWhaley71
How DO you star posts?

Funny.

reply to post by allthings2allmen


'As we were driving around the center of town in a taxi I pointed to the wailing wall and said to the taxi driver this is an abomination'

Obviously, you've never been to Jerusalem because you cannot see or access the area where the Jews pray to the Western Wall by taxi. You can only walk from one of the city gates and must walk through the Arab market (Bazaar) and various churches on stone walkways and steps.

The only abomination is in your delusions!

reply to post by Hongkongphooey

Perhaps the prophet Elijah has x-ray vision glasses from the back of a comic book.

If that's the case, proof that they work is a miracle in itself.

''As we were driving around the center of town in a taxi I pointed to the wailing wall and said to the taxi driver this is an abomination'

Obviously, you've never been to Jerusalem because you cannot see or access the area where the Jews pray to the Western Wall by taxi.'

Yes, Sigmund and I went to Jerusalem and (in a taxi) drove by the wailing wall which was to the right of us.







Siggy blew the shofar which was a gift to me right in front of a heavily armed
guard and I said, 'you're going to get us killed'. (Which we didn't)

PhilWhaley71
How DO you star posts?

The same way you do - but with more discretion.

reply to post by allthings2allmen


I've found no verification of this construction, only that a pipeline has been agreed to between Aqaba and the Dead Sea. It appears that proposals for bids will be going out sometime this year, but no company has been settled upon, much less construction started. Link already posted.

The OP of one of your now defunct threads in fact SPECIFIED that you were putting the info out there in order to attract potential investors. I strongly suspect that is the very reason the thread is now defunct.

As far as my heart goes, you know nothing about it at all, which is surprising for an alleged "prophet". If money were my objective, I'd be as rich as 3 feet up a bull's behind by now - a financial condition with which I am reliably informed you are acquainted. You know nothing of my condition, finances, history, or ambitions, which is indeed surprising coming from a "prophet", and all the more so since it is posted right here at ATS, complete with photos.

I have never bilked strangers out of money, much less family or friends, and much, MUCH less ever done so on a pretense of "promoting peace", in Jerusalem or anywhere else.

Knowing that you're in it for the money is much more than a mere assumption, Siggy. I know you far better than you realize. There are three things you crave: money, power, and carnality.

I have seen this already, have archived it, and will be able to back it up at the proper time.

reply to post by PhilWhaley71


You still cannot see or access the WESTERN WALL from a taxi, sorry you are full of BS, pictures looking down on the city is not the same. I have been to the same tourist destination on the Mount of Olives and you cannot see the Jews praying at the Western Wall from there!

So therefore it is impossible that you were riding in a taxi and saw the Jews praying at the wall however, if you entered the city by foot and walked, perhaps?

So you insulted the Jewish people and they let you blow the Shofur, really? Israeli's are well known for their patience with visitors who insult them! Abomination BS.

I will not respond to people who just want to get this thread of topic. The wall is not the temple mound it is the southwestern wall of Fort Antonia. Nothing sacred there to the Jews.

Our modern scholars and religious authorities consistently state that we cannot accept as truth the plain words of Josephus in the important descriptions he provides regarding the shapes of buildings and their dimensions. We will discover it is the scholars and religious leaders who are wrong -- not Josephus.
The early Jewish historian/priest, in places that scholars say he exaggerated, was stating the exact truth. The fact is, the Jerusalem of the Jews and the Temple of Herod were indeed totally destroyed and not a stone of them was left in place. This problem we face today is not Josephus. It is modern scholarly opinion that the Haram esh-Sharif was the Temple Mount. But this evaluation is NOT true.
That facility known as the Haram was officially reckoned as being beyond and outside the limits of Jewish Jerusalem. It was NOT reckoned as being part of the municipality of Jerusalem.

Josephus was Not Exaggerating

Modern scholars are wrong, not the eyewitness accounts of Josephus and Titus. Jewish Jerusalem and the Temple were certainly destroyed to the bedrock just as they relate. While the Haram retained it’s four walls, Josephus was keen on telling his readers that all the walls around Jerusalem were leveled to the ground. Note his observation:
“Now the Romans set fire to the extreme parts of the city [the suburbs] and burnt them down, and entirely demolished it’s [Jerualem’s] walls.”16
Those walls surrounding the Haram were NOT city walls, they were walls that protected something else altogether. The Haram area was not even a part of Jewish Jerusalem.
To reinforce the matter, Josephus buttressed his account:
“When he [Titus] entirely demolished the rest of the city, and overthrew it’s walls, he left these towers [the three towers mentioned above] as a monument of his good fortune, which had proved [the destructive power of] his auxiliaries, and enabled him to take what could not otherwise have been taken by him.”17
These two accounts by Josephus, along with the other previous observations, confirm that there was a literal destruction of all the walls surrounding Jerusalem. We will see even the small section of the western wall of the Upper City was later demolished. Indeed, not a trace of it was mentioned by later eyewitnesses, nor has any part of it been found by modern archaeologists. Simply put, after 70 C.E. there is no word in any historical record about a continuance of those three fortresses that Titus at first thought he would retain as monuments to the power of Rome over the Jews.
But these descriptions of Josephus and Titus of total ruin of the Temple and Jewish Jerusalem seem at variance with what we witness today. Let’s face it. From the Mount of Olives we behold the four walls of the Haram still erect in all their glory, and they are prominently displayed with a grandeur that dominates present-day Jerusalem. The lower courses of those walls clearly have 10,000 Herodian and pre-Herodian stones still on top of one another. As a matter of interest, those rectangular walls are even functioning ramparts of Jerusalem today. They have been in constant use throughout the intervening centuries to protect the buildings that were constructed in the interior of the Haram esh-Sharif.
Again, if those rectangular walls of the Haram are those which surrounded the Temple Mount (as we are informed by all authorities today), why did Josephus and Titus leave out any mention about this magnificent Haram structure? They spoke of the utter ruin and desolation of Jewish jerusalem and Temple, not the survival of any buildings that Jewish authorities once controlled.
On the other hand, it is certain that Josephus and Titus were aware that the walls of the Haram survived the war. After all, the walls are there for all to observe. Then why did Josephus and Titus not refer to the walls of the Haram that remained standing in their time? This book will soon explain the reason why, and clearly.

A Quandary for Modern Christians

These facts present a major problem for Christians. If those rectangular walls of the Haram are the same walls in their lower courses that formerly embraced the Temple Mount (as we are dogmatically informed), why are these stones still firmly positioned on top of one another? The continued existence of those colossal stones shows that Titus did not destroy the walls of the Temple after all -- if those were the same walls. Why is this a difficulty for Christian belief? The reason is plain.
Christians are aware of four prophecies given by Jesus in the New Testament that not one stone would be left upon another either of the Temple and it’s walls, or even of the City of Jerusalem and it’s walls (Matthew 24:1-2; Mark 13:1-2; Luke 19:43-44; Luke 21:5-6). But the walls encompassing the Haram still remain in their glory with the 10,000 Herodian and pre-Herodian stones in place in their lower courses. If those stones are those of the Temple, the prophecies of Jesus can be seriously doubted as having any historical value or prophetic merit in any analysis made by intelligent and unbiased observers.
Indeed, the majority of Christian visitors to Jerusalem who first view those huge stones surrounding the rectangular area of the Haram (and who know the prophecies of Jesus) are sometimes perplexed and often shocked at what they see. And they ought to be. The surprise at what they observe has been the case with numerous people I have guided around Jerusalem and Israel. They have asked for an explanation concerning this apparent failure of the prophecies of Jesus. Why do those gigantic walls still exist when Jesus prophesied that not one stone would remain upon another? If those walls of the Haram represent the stones around the Temple, then the prophecies of Christ are invalid.
The usual explanation to justify the credibility of the prophecies is to say Jesus could only have been speaking about the stones of the inner Temple and it’s buildings, NOT the outer Temple and it’s walls that surrounded it. This is the customary and conciliatory answer most scholars friendly to Christian principles provide as their explanation. It is the same type of reasoning I adopted to explain this anomaly to my students and associates.
The truth is, however, this explanation will not satisfy when one looks at what Jesus prophesied. Observe the prophecies carefully. They plainly state that one stone would not rest on another of the Temple buildings, and his prophecies included it’s outer walls. The Greek word Jesus used in his prophetic context to describe the Temple and it’s buildings was heiron. This means the entire Temple including it’s exterior buildings and walls. Notice what Vincent says about the meaning of heiron.
“The word temple (heiron, lit., sacred place) signifies the whole compass of the sacred enclosure, with it’s porticos, courts, and other subordinate buildings; and should be carefully distinguished from the other word, naos, also rendered temple, which means the temple itself -- the ‘Holy Place’ and the ‘Holy of Holies.’ When we read, for instance, of Christ teaching in the temple (heiron) we must refer it to one of the temple porches [outer colonnades]. So it is from the heiron, the court of the Gentiles, that Christ expels the moneychangers and cattle merchants.”18
The exterior buildings of the Temple including it’s walls were always reckoned within the meaning of heiron that Jesus used concerning the total destruction of the Temple. There were several outer divisions of the Temple distinguished from the Inner Temple, and these outer structures were accounted as cardinal features of the Sanctuary. Note the New Testament account stating that Satan took Jesus to the “pinnacle of the Temple” (Matthew 4:5). The pinnacle section was the southeastern corner of the outer wall that surrounded the whole of the Temple complex. The wording in the New Testament shows that this southeastern angle was very much a part of the Temple -- it was a pinnacle [a wing] “of the Temple.” That area was a cardinal attachment to the sacred edifice itself and an integral section of the Temple Jesus referred to when he prophesied that not one stone would remain on another.
15 Though Professor Williamson, who translated Josephus, did not use the term “wild” (it was another highly respected scholar), Williamson would have thought the evaluation appropriate (as did I before 1997). He remarked that the thorough desolation that Josephus recorded and Titus supposedly saw in front of him was:
“An exaggeration. A great deal of the southern part of the Temple enclosure was spared. The whole of the south wall of it’s successor , the present wall round the Haram esh-Sharif, the southern section of the west wall (the ‘Wailing Wall,’ where the fall of Jerusalem is still lamented) and a short stretch of the east wall running up from the southeast corner are Herodian to a considerable height” (The Jewish War, p.454, n.2).
16 War (War of the Jews) VI.9,4.
17 War VI.9,1.
18 Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament, vol. I., p.50.

PhilWhaley71

Modern scholars are wrong, not the eyewitness accounts of Josephus and Titus. Jewish Jerusalem and the Temple were certainly destroyed to the bedrock just as they relate.

The only exposed bedrock on Zion is the rock exposed under the Dome of the Rock.

ON the Haram esh-Sharif.

When the temple was razed to the bedrock, that rock is what was left exposed.

While the Haram retained it’s four walls, Josephus was keen on telling his readers that all the walls around Jerusalem were leveled to the ground. Note his observation:
“Now the Romans set fire to the extreme parts of the city [the suburbs] and burnt them down, and entirely demolished it’s [Jerualem’s] walls.”16
Those walls surrounding the Haram were NOT city walls, they were walls that protected something else altogether. The Haram area was not even a part of Jewish Jerusalem.

The Haram was contained within the city walls, but was NOT part of the city - it was a separate precinct. Therefore, destroying the city walls would have had no repercussions to the haram platform.

Israel conceded authority over the Temple Mount to the Waqf. The authority they take from that concession is the Haram esh-Sharif, not a nebulous area in the City of David, or "the Lower City".

It's not just the scholars and Jews who specify that to be the self-same area - it's the Muslims as well. They ought to know - they know just which area they built the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa upon, and why.

These facts present a major problem for Christians. If those rectangular walls of the Haram are the same walls in their lower courses that formerly embraced the Temple Mount (as we are dogmatically informed), why are these stones still firmly positioned on top of one another? The continued existence of those colossal stones shows that Titus did not destroy the walls of the Temple after all -- if those were the same walls. Why is this a difficulty for Christian belief? The reason is plain.

The platform is NOT the temple, which was a building built ON the platform. The Haram is no more a part of the temple than Oak street is a wall of my house.

It's considered good form when quoting large parts of a book or article rather than one's own words to enclose the quote in external quote tags, to offset it and let people know that it did not originate with you.

ETA: the so-called "Wailing Wall" is the western wall of the Haram, built by Herod, not the western wall of the Temple, and not the "western wall of the CITY" mentioned by Josephus. The temple itself WAS utterly destroyed, and not a single rock of it still stands upon another. The Haram esh-Sharif, the platform, is not the temple, and neither the Jews, Muslims, nor Christians believe that it is. Only the very ill-informed would believe such a thing, which is what this crackpot theory depends upon to stand - a misinformed false belief.

"The only exposed bedrock on Zion is the rock exposed under the Dome of the Rock.

ON the Haram esh-Sharif."

The Jewish Temple was never located in the Haram.
But there was a rock that was a feature of Fort Antonia and later of the Dome of the Rock.
Mt. Zion and the Haram are separate locations.

"The only exposed bedrock on Zion is the rock exposed under the Dome of the Rock."

The ground level was a lot lower 2000 years ago.

There are topographical elevations of the first temple and the second temple for anyone really interested in the facts. Since the ground was not flat a retaining wall was built up and filled with rubble to create a flat platform upon which the temple was built.

The full-size version links are here:

King Solomon's Temple page 16

King Solomon's Temple page 17