Mayhem Grips Ukrainian Capital

beezzer
So we help other countries anti-government protesters.

But in our own country, we . . . . . . . . .

We sick the DHS, and FBI, and disarm them, put them on no fly lists, terrorist watch lists, and mock them, and then turn around and give billions of dollars, and arm government opposition elsewhere.

Epically sad to see what is going on in the Ukraine.

Even more so at the defense of Pro Putin 'the godfather' allies, and the 'emperor' Putin.

I say a prayer for those who have been lost, and injured, and one more that something 'good' will come out of it all.

reply to post by MessageforAll


Do you blame the Ukrainian gov't for making this move? Perhaps foreign money is influencing this...if that is the case, would this not be an attempt at a coup?

From what I gather, coups are very very grey areas for governments to confront, without violence. Literally political minefields - your damned if you do and your damned if you don't approach it with a heavy hand. Especially when the coup is not backed by the military but only factions of extremist political groups. How do they know this is actually the will of the people? I'm not taking sides here. I'm just being a devils advocate, trying to stimulate some intelligent debate.

I am not a true fan of democracy, as clearly it is too easily hijacked. Especially this day in age with media and money flowing at equal rates to just a few. But seriously, if you were the Ukrainian gov't, would you not try and defend your position?

And on top of that, what exactly do the people think will change if they were to join the EU? Like someone else just said, go ask Poland or Spain or Portugal how things are in the EU.

reply to post by Sparkymedic


I as you don't believe in democracy as well, if the majority of the people are dumb then expect a monkey at the top that said, I honestly understand the government and their position their in.

I for one ( I posted this before ) saw a 10 minute video of protestors beating the crap out of policemen who where in charge of protection civilians. In those 10 minutes the policemen just took a beating and not once did they make an offensive move. Basically they where acting as a human shield for the people.

About 2 hours later it came out that the reason they didn't attack was that well... They didn't get the order to do so. So that shows a lot of courage and respect.

As another poster here said in a very detailed manner, for Ukraine the best option was to pass the trade agreement for joining the EU, it would have been worse for the country.

Ask any of us EU people if we want the EU, NO we don't but we never got to vote about it.

The only reason the parliament gave the order to use live rounds on the "protesters" is because this morning about 1500 weapons where stolen from a military facility nearby...

Almost as in a person in the shadow was thinking "hey this rebellion is going smooth, lets spice some things up and throw some weapons in the mixture".

Only for this reason they are now allowed to use live ammo, because they are dealing with domestic terrorists now. REAL domestic terror, not the fabricated terror in the US.

When you look at this from a distance you can see distinct similarities with Syria ( Bashar ) and Libya, Tunisia... Turkey... Egypt... Central Africa.

For a sudden rebellion this operation is well funded, or they wouldn't have lasted this long. Someone is bringing them food, water, weapons.

A key matter in this whole situation is a gas pipeline. And to remove Russia's Power over the EU ( Russia is the biggest suplier of gas for Europe) So Russia can say FU to the EU and ain't nothing they can do about it.

In Return, if Russia loses some ground, the US can put Missiles along the Russian border.

Sadly this is just one aspect of this whole scenario.

NickDC202

Cabin
Found this video. At least based on what my acquaintances in Ukraine have told me, that is what majority of protesters believe in. I do not know whether it has been already shared or not.

I loved the first draft of that fine product of US State Department propaganda... don't know if you've seen it but here it is:

HAHA exactly !!

reply to post by Cabin


So essentially you are saying they deserve what is coming their way? I am onboard with that to some degree, if that is what you are saying...and if not...well', I'm saying it. Only because their choice to choose between a giant douche (EU) and a turd sandwich (Rus), basically says they are misinformed, weak and thoughtless as to directing their passion (the recent anger) into the lesser of the two evils. Why the F&@# would they choose the lesser of two evils? If they are going to go this balls deep in defying their standing gov't just to get cozy with another form of corruption (EU) why bother at all??????? Why not take it all the way and REALLY make a change? Those deaths, and likely the more to come, are just futile and senseless losses of life. The stupidity of the masses enrages me when you see them get duped by these thugs (from both sides)! I agree with your thoughts, and I guarantee someONE, somewhere is going to benefit greatly, no matter what the outcome of this is.

reply to post by MessageforAll


You most certainly are hitting the nail on the head. The situation is complex to say the least. Tis a Brave New World...where battle lines no longer exist and the enemy wears the allies (or civilians) uniform. Afghanistan/ Iraq was just a taste of what is to come. The efforts to control and manipulate are all futile in the end though, eventually we all leave this rock for another realm, in one way or another. Sadly people cling to this sort of drama as an excuse to justify their difficulties, perhaps I'm wrong. I was watching it all unfold yesterday...you can't look away...it's like a bad car accident! My thoughts are with the innocent and the brave.

reply to post by Sparkymedic


I hear ya, It used to be quite simple, you know you had the Nazi's and the Allies. Black and White, nowadays when you think you might have a clear picture another factor comes to light and throws you again in this grey goo.

I wish I could say to myself I know whats going on, but I can't, you see some dots but that's it.

But the only thing certain is that this won't end well for the people of Ukraine.

Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich and opposition leaders were able to establish a truce, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, leader of the Batkivshchyna opposition party, stated.

Yatsenyuk added that the parties decided to begin talks to stabilize the situation, according to the party’s press office.

Now the next thing to expect is that the "protesters" will start calling Arseniy Yatsenyuk a sell out and the right wing will keep on doing what their doing, creating havoc.

They want a civil war and a coup. So keep a close eye on how they will react to this truce.

reply to post by MessageforAll


Ukraine is an country which have been tense over 200 years... i doubt it will change. What comes to President and his close cabinet, some of his ministers have resigned like people wanted but the people wanted also President to resign. We don´t know what is behind these resignations have the pressure for those come from the public or the president himself saving his own skin, if so it would be only replacing some cabinet members.

Problems in Ukraine comes in multiple levels and anti/pro EU is just couple of them, the movement has been more anti goverment movement than anything else.

Without new untampered elections of the President.. there is no change

reply to post by dollukka


The Ukrainian struggles have indeed been going on a long time. Quite similar to many other old grievances the world continues to hold on to. At this point I wish to draw your attention to the quote at the bottom of my reply. Where and when has there been unhampered elections in the world recently? I doubt we will ever see that as long as politicians and bankers walk this earth.

It looks like several of the MSM sites are reporting a truce "declared" by the president. (Bloomberg, Fox etc..)

The live feed I'm watching tells me the protestors haven't heard about it, yet.

The fireworks continue as I type. No delay.

reply to post by Sparkymedic


I was speaking to someone from the Ukraine about exactly that, and they just don't understand. They believe there are only 2 options, EU or Soviet. They can't seem to understand that neither is an option.

reply to post by MessageforAll


I saw plenty of cops beating the absolute # out of protesters too...plenty.

xavi1000
Recap from the day

REAL WAR

What you see on the news is utter crap! THIS is the stuff they should show on the news. Man 10x stars if I could, those police where scared with poop in their pants. I'm also wondering if that last video at the end, is one of the killed police. He did-not-want to let go of that shield.

reply to post by dollukka


As usual dollukka you still haven't replied to my thread thats not surprising.

TiedDestructor
reply to post by MessageforAll

 

I saw plenty of cops beating the absolute # out of protesters too...plenty.

I have being on YouTube since Nov and haven't seen even though the titles of the video claim that the cops are beating the protesters but it shows the opposite.

As usual some minds are easily fooled by propaganda.

reply to post by dollukka


Without new untampered elections of the President.. there is no change

LOL Your quite the laugh take a very and long at Bosnia 20 years after the war and what have elections led to? NOTHING in return.

reply to post by Agent_USA_Supporter


You, sir, are either completely blind or just haven't watched any of the videos. I've seen Ukrainian police beat people in the fetal position with batons, I even remember seeing a man laying on the ground, obviously unconscious, with riot police stepping over him only to stop and take swings at him.

Both sides are being extremely violent and careless in this awful situation and for you to say otherwise is ignorant and proof that you haven't watched the videos in their entirety.

Well, it looks like the truce didn't do much good.

At least 10 dead as Kiev clashes renew

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — Fierce clashes between police and protesters in Ukraine's capital have erupted anew Thursday and an Associated Press reporter has seen 10 bodies laid out on the edge of the protest encampment.

RT has its own motives, but they usually do good up-to-date reports in situations like this.

RT crews come under fire, unidentified snipers shoot in central Kiev

Armed rioters have taken control on Hotel Ukraine and are using it as a base to fire on Independence Square, reports Ruptly news agency. Piskunov and his team have barricaded themselves in their hotel room and covered the windows.

RT is saying some of their crew has been "captured" by rioters, and protesters have seized around 300 firearms from an arsenal in an area in the western part of the country. (Im assuming that was from Lvov.)

ETA - It looks like RT started using a different web link to their new live updates.

rt.com...

A bit late since protesters took over the hotel, but...

09:00 GMT:

There’s a shoot-out going on inside the Ukraine hotel between protesters and security forces.

Another update.

rt.com...

10:20 GMT:

Insurgents in Kiev are attacking law enforcement with firearms, including sniper rifles. According to unconfirmed reports, at least 35 people have been killed this morning, RT’s Aleksey Yaroshevsky informed from the scene. Opposition snipers have occupied several roofs in downtown Kiev, shooting law enforcement, dozens have reportedly been wounded. The core of the armed opposition force is the nationalist Right Sector group, that maintained that the ‘revolution’ will go on ‘to the end’. Reportedly up to 12 police officers have been captured by the rioters.