Social programming + the collapse of religion and values.

reply to post by frazzle


I disagree.

I was lucky enough to know my great-grandmother for a very few years. One of the things I remember her saying was "what is the world coming to? People are so awful these days!"

My grandmother, as well, routinely said in her later years "What is the world coming to? People are so cruel and uncaring these days!"

My father, as well, routinely said in his later years "What is the world coming to? People will steal from you as soon as look at you!"

They all followed it up with "it wasn't like this in the good ol' days."

The "good ol' days is a function of the human mind. Our psyches balance out the bad memories. For example I am sure that as a child in the 80s, the sky was bluer. People were kinder. There wasn't as much crime.

I'm only 47.

reply to post by frazzle


Well my 97 year old grandmother who I am lucky to still be able to call on the phone and is still sharp as a tack has said this is a wonderous time which does have its problems like any other, and I doubt she would ever want to turn society back into what it was in the 50s.

I may give her a call today and have a little conversation on the subject. She is one of the most intelligent person I have ever known so it will be interesting to hear her take on the matter.

OP (scorpion),

You are of an Abrahamic religion (Islam) so I am going to respond directly to you rather then to posters in your thread, from a purely religious perspective.

You know in your Holy book what is said of the generation before the end of this age.

You also know that scripture indicates an increase in sin (transgressions of God's laws) during this time.

The human mind by its very nature and for a very specific purpose lusts endlessly for self governance, they do not want to be told their personal moral code is not right/good. Every man is "right" in their own eyes. This is the nature of mankind.

There are spirit beings (set against God's way of thinking called "demons") that broadcast thoughts into the minds of men that encourage this type of selfish thinking (my way is right; others are wrong; I will make you agree with me).

You know in your Holy book that God (Allah for you) would allow those beings to exercise greater strength in their transmissions of selfish thinking toward the end of this age, according to God's will. This increase in power was by design, and was meant to bring the natural end of the present age of mankind (WW3) to fruition at an accelerated rate (faster then it would have taken at mankind's normal rate of sin) for the sake of all life on Earth.

"unless those days be shortened, for the elect's (called out ones/ecclesia) sake; no flesh would survive."

Those who are of the Abrahamic religions are not immune to this nature and religions themselves have also lived according to what seems right to them (which is why we have over 1000 denominations of Christianity presently, even thought there is but one truth in life). All mankind is deceived into following what seems right to their personal morality, regardless of religious definition or lack thereof (atheism).

The point is we are living at the time of the end of the present age given to mankind for self governance by perfect design.

God is now going to begin the next age for the salvation of mankind; the present age is not the age for the salvation of mankind. God has a plan, and most are not judged in this age by their sins; it has been the will of God to allow mankind to live according to what seems right to them during this age to provide the ultimate contrast between the world we live in at present (chaos as a result of every man living according to personally defined morality) and their second life (peace as a result of every man living according to God's definition of good and evil) in the ages to come.

You already know why this is happening if you look at your own Holy books and those of the Abrahamic religions.

We just happen to live at the most eventful time in all of history (end of the age of mankind; beginning of the Kingdom of God on Earth); and God's will be done on Earth. The "dark unseen forces" you suspect behind these movement are indeed "dark" and "unseen"; but no man on Earth can prove this to you; it is by faith you know where we are in time.

God Bless,

reply to post by Frazzle

I don't see your point.

That's because you were not following the train of thought. Not the first time in this thread.

reply to post by frazzle

Either society evolves into something better than before or it devolves. You don't have to look at a wind sock to see which way the wind blows.

I agree with both you and Grimpachi.

Perspective is demonstrably a strong factor. Yet society is evolving. Two steps forward, one step back.

I would say if you don't see that evolution Frazzle your perspective is clouding your objectivity.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


I am of the inclination that the moral fabric of the USA
is not evolving but devolving.

reply to post by spirited75


Can you give a synopsis of why you think that?

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by frazzle

 

Either society evolves into something better than before or it devolves. You don't have to look at a wind sock to see which way the wind blows.

I agree with both you and Grimpachi.

Perspective is demonstrably a strong factor. Yet society is evolving. Two steps forward, one step back.

I would say if you don't see that evolution Frazzle your perspective is clouding your objectivity.

You expect others to give explanations regarding their views on society's devolution, how about you giving us your own reasoning for positive evolution. I have seen nothing from you throughout this thread (and others) saying more than its really good that faith in God has been almost decimated and how wonderful life has been since the sexual revolution, particularly the current phase of it. Did I miss anything?

I also skimmed through your link on beliefs and wasn't at all surprised to see that it was authored by a devout atheist, which is the anti religion religion. Atheists just believe in nothing, as opposed to something. Well at least they believe in nothing that might tone down their lust for life's pleasures in the here and now. Speaking of perspective.

And they (atheists, sometimes in priest's robes) have always used religion as an excuse for the horrors of the past (and present) when the culprit has always been the lust for money and power and pleasure by the money changers. They would have to come out of the closet and admit that's what they've always been up to if there was no such thing as religion to blame. Perhaps they need religion more than anyone else.

reply to post by frazzle

You expect others to give explanations regarding their views on society's devolution, how about you giving us your own reasoning for positive evolution.

I have. Even on page 1. What I didn't say directly should easily be inferred. They are in the posts throughout. Go back and read them. I have read many of yours twice.

I have seen nothing from you throughout this thread (and others) saying more than its really good that faith in God has been almost decimated and how wonderful life has been since the sexual revolution

So in other words. If reasons are given for belief in positive change you'll disregard them as our reasons if they don't agree with you.

I am fairly sure myself and others have mentioned things like, for example, women's rights. Why no mention of this? You just essentially said we never brought it up. Are you purposefully being dishonest or is this just a bad case of selective reading? Truly go read our posts… because yes you did miss something apparently. Plenty of reasons were given.

Now to be clear. My criticism is on religion not god belief. I certainly never said it was 'almost decimated'. Seriously go back to the start of the thread and you'll see I said the opposite since I talked about the majority of the nation being Christian. What I did say was that we see more and more people questioning the faith and as a result losing it.

I very much think that's a positive change. Science is the foundation of our civilization and religion instills an attitude towards reason that is not conducive to a scientific mentality.

I also skimmed through your link on beliefs and wasn't at all surprised to see that it was authored by a devout atheist

Which one is this? I think I posted a few? Either way don't recall

which is the anti religion religion.

*yawn*

Yes and not believing in leprechauns is a religion. All disbelief is a religion.

Atheists just believe in nothing, as opposed to something.

Atheists believe in plenty of things.

Well at least they believe in nothing that might tone down their lust for life's pleasures in the here and now.

Oh goody. Whats next. Atheists lack morality. If everyone was an atheist society would fall apart.

Yeah surely we would all be better off if we read your best book on 'good life ways' that tells us we should treat women like property and beat them for being disobedient.

And they (atheists, sometimes in priest's robes)

Did you watch the video I posted on the preacher of 19 years that is now an atheist? He talks about preachers that are closet atheists yet still preach Christianity.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


Why?
We are opposites with our world views,
and I am not so much inclined to waste
my God given breath.

Would you be baiting me?
In light of the quantity of your posts
you are probably a master at that.

reply to post by spirited75

Yes it seems we are. I didn't realize sharing thoughts was a waste of breath.

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by frazzle

 

[I have. Even on page 1. What I didn't say directly should easily be inferred. They are in the posts throughout. Go back and read them. I have read many of yours twice.

What you said was that you celebrate the decline of religion. And it would seem that since Christianity is the religion that primarily surrounds you and hampers you in some nebulous way, that would be your particular target.

I may have it all backwards, but from my understanding Christians (and other religionists) believe in a heaven and a hell or at least some form of hereafter where justice is served, Agnostics admit that they don't know one way or another, and Atheists say they know there is nothing after death ~ kaput. So the only ones who claim to know the unknowable are the latter. Not very scientific of them if you ask me.

I am fairly sure myself and others have mentioned things like, for example, women's rights. Why no mention of this? You just essentially said we never brought it up. Are you purposefully being dishonest or is this just a bad case of selective reading? Truly go read our posts… because yes you did miss something apparently. Plenty of reasons were given.

Ah yes, lets grant them "the right" to act irresponsibly with no consequences or repurcussions, that has worked out so well for women. Or men. But it has definitely been a boon to pharmaceutical industry and psychiatric docs who dole out antidepressants like candy. And there's your scientific mentality at work.

Which one is this? I think I posted a few? Either way don't recall

You were in the kitchen baking cookies for your daughter? You can scour other's posts to try to trip them up, but you can't keep track of your own?

Oh goody. Whats next. Atheists lack morality. If everyone was an atheist society would fall apart.

Yeah surely we would all be better off if we read your best book on 'good life ways' that tells us we should treat women like property and beat them for being disobedient.

I think a lot of so-called atheists, in their hearts, realize they may NOT know all there is to know. In the closet agnostics, IOW.

And a lot of people think one should not take one quote from a book and think he knows everything about it. Wouldn't work with a science book and it doesn't work with religious books.

Did you watch the video I posted on the preacher of 19 years that is now an atheist? He talks about preachers that are closet atheists yet still preach Christianity.

edit on 25-2-2014 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)

If you had read my post prior to yours, I referred to Atheists in priest's robes, and way back in this thread I believe I mentioned that the best way to destroy something is from the inside.

frazzle

Ah yes, lets grant them "the right" to act irresponsibly with no consequences or repurcussions, that has worked out so well for women. Or men. But it has definitely been a boon to pharmaceutical industry and psychiatric docs who dole out antidepressants like candy. And there's your scientific mentality at work.

What irresponsibility are you talking about? Are you against a woman's right to vote?? Or are you saying that woman simply lack the ability to act responsibly???

mOjOm

frazzle

Ah yes, lets grant them "the right" to act irresponsibly with no consequences or repurcussions, that has worked out so well for women. Or men. But it has definitely been a boon to pharmaceutical industry and psychiatric docs who dole out antidepressants like candy. And there's your scientific mentality at work.

What irresponsibility are you talking about? Are you against a woman's right to vote?? Or are you saying that woman simply lack the ability to act responsibly???

Women were given the "right to vote" in 1920. Don't you think its about time to stop using that as an excuse for what's happening today? Besides, it doesn't matter who votes, it all depends on who counts the vote.

And no, women don't lack the ability to use good sense, that is innate. But they are encouraged by government and the social engineers (media/movies/etc.) to forget good sense when the hormones are raging and just do whatever feels good at the moment. The price is being paid, for the most part, by innocent children.

The overall health of a culture/society/political system/religion has to be diagnosed on how well it protects those who cannot protect themselves ~ the very young and the very old, not to mention looking out for the natural world that makes life possible. This political system and this culture has catastrophically failed in every way that counts.

frazzle

mOjOm

frazzle

Ah yes, lets grant them "the right" to act irresponsibly with no consequences or repurcussions, that has worked out so well for women. Or men. But it has definitely been a boon to pharmaceutical industry and psychiatric docs who dole out antidepressants like candy. And there's your scientific mentality at work.

What irresponsibility are you talking about? Are you against a woman's right to vote?? Or are you saying that woman simply lack the ability to act responsibly???

Women were given the "right to vote" in 1920. Don't you think its about time to stop using that as an excuse for what's happening today? Besides, it doesn't matter who votes, it all depends on who counts the vote.

Ok how about wage equality? That is still a very real issue affecting women in the workplace.

And no, women don't lack the ability to use good sense, that is innate. But they are encouraged by government and the social engineers (media/movies/etc.) to forget good sense when the hormones are raging and just do whatever feels good at the moment. The price is being paid, for the most part, by innocent children.

Women have been having casual sex FAR longer than the recent spate of sexualization of our society. Teenage pregnancies, single parenthood, abortions, and adoptions are all VERY old things that have been happening FAR longer than this country was even an idea in our founding fathers' heads. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

The overall health of a culture/society/political system/religion has to be diagnosed on how well it protects those who cannot protect themselves ~ the very young and the very old, not to mention looking out for the natural world that makes life possible. This political system and this culture has catastrophically failed in every way that counts.

Who made that description up? Particularly the looking out for the natural world part? Because frankly I cannot think of a society that has EVER cared for the natural world besides the Native Americans and other shamanic societies. Also caring for the very old is a new thing as well. People used to die a LOT younger than they do these days.

frazzle

Women were given the "right to vote" in 1920. Don't you think its about time to stop using that as an excuse for what's happening today? Besides, it doesn't matter who votes, it all depends on who counts the vote.

And no, women don't lack the ability to use good sense, that is innate. But they are encouraged by government and the social engineers (media/movies/etc.) to forget good sense when the hormones are raging and just do whatever feels good at the moment. The price is being paid, for the most part, by innocent children.

The overall health of a culture/society/political system/religion has to be diagnosed on how well it protects those who cannot protect themselves ~ the very young and the very old, not to mention looking out for the natural world that makes life possible. This political system and this culture has catastrophically failed in every way that counts.

Who's using women's right to vote as an excuse for what's happening today other than you??? I'm confused.

They are also encouraged to be submissive, silent, male dominated baby factories that have no other place than in the kitchen making meals for their husbands and nursing a child. So what. There is always going to be someone trying to influence some lifestyle on others. It's not just one sided. So let them make up their own minds what to do rather than dictating how others should live. You were allowed to choose how you live so let others do the same, is that so hard to understand???

Yeah, society is always in chaos to some degree. As time has gone on we've become very destructive with the help of technology especially. But that is nothing new. We may very well be just another of natures failed experiments like countless other creatures which have already died off. We are just a blip in the grand scheme of things. Or maybe we'll get our sh!t together and make it a while longer, who knows. But this is nothing new nor does it rest on the shoulders of Women's Rights. Men have been running things for a very long time which has led us here. So maybe you should blame the Patriarchs and their system first.

frazzle
Women were given the "right to vote" in 1920. Don't you think its about time to stop using that as an excuse for what's happening today?

It wasn't an excuse, it was an example.

Besides, it doesn't matter who votes, it all depends on who counts the vote.

Yet another red herring.

Krazysh0t

Ok how about wage equality? That is still a very real issue affecting women in the workplace.

Okay, lets change the goalpost to the claim that wage inequality is gender based. So why does the male CEO of an insurance company make a thousand percent more dollars in an annual bonus than can be earned by some other male in, say, the plumbing industry? Plumbers definitely rank higher on my list of which is more important for keeping life (and other things) running smoothly.

Women have been having casual sex FAR longer than the recent spate of sexualization of our society. Teenage pregnancies, single parenthood, abortions, and adoptions are all VERY old things that have been happening FAR longer than this country was even an idea in our founding fathers' heads. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

Who's pretending otherwise? The human race has always been in a race for the bottom. Something has kept us from getting all the way there so far but we're still working on it.

Who made that description up? Particularly the looking out for the natural world part? Because frankly I cannot think of a society that has EVER cared for the natural world besides the Native Americans and other shamanic societies. Also caring for the very old is a new thing as well. People used to die a LOT younger than they do these days.

Absolutely correct about the indigenous peoples and they would still be taking care of their young and old, as well as the natural world if not for the invasion of "modern" morals and codes. Traditional people's still live that way. It isn't about longevity, its about how well life is lived and what makes life worth living.

Incidentally, that description was also passed down from one generation to the next through stories that have a great similarity to parables.

reply to post by Gryphon66


The only good thing about the 50's and 60's was the plentiful jobs and cheap rent.

To think that all this sinning was not going on in secret is either naive or just plan stupid about human nature.

Religion is losing because no one believes that BS that you can go sinnin' Sat night and ask for forgiveness Sunday morn, anymore.

reply to post by mOjOm

So maybe you should blame the Patriarchs and their system first.

Actually, I do. And if you're paying attention, the old testament is preached in Christian churches far more than the teachings of Jesus.

Matriarchy is nurture, not pay backs and violence. Unfortunately, women are filled with anger and bitterness and they're looking in all the wrong places for a sense of self.

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