Social programming + the collapse of religion and values.

reply to post by frazzle

You obviously didn't read my whole comment ~ I said IF there was a way to reverse it. And I DIDN'T say it should be mandatory. Choice.

You obviously didn't read my whole comment

If gay people had that choice later in life it wouldn't negate the fact that prior they didn't have the choice. As such saying the 'mantra of it's a choice should stop' is wrong. People would still be born this way. Just because there is a procedure doesn't negate that. It would be like saying me being a man is a choice because I can have gender reassignment surgery. Yeah…I could. Prior to that my gender certainly wasn't a choice.

reply to post by LafingWithTears

I remember in th 70s it was called a sexual preference, implying choice.

It's no longer the 70s

At the start of the 70s homosexuality was deemed a disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM). It was removed from the DSM-2 mid way through the 70s. We are now on DSM-5 If you look at the health organizations stance on it now, it's that sexual orientation is little to zero choice [all orientations].

Liberalism.

The acceptance, adoption, and legislation of liberal ideologies plays a huge role in the downfall of our society, mainly for the reasons you mentioned.

I recently did a thread on this titled, "Liberal Policies and Feminism: The Destruction of the Black Family."

Very interesting thread, and I await more replies for healthy debate on this topic.

reply to post by mOjOm


Really??? No reference at all about People's Sexuality huh???

I'm assuming you're also a Human Being right??

I'm going to assume you have some sort of Sexual Preference yourself yes???

That would be the most obvious reference I think.

At that point, think about how much of a choice was it for you. Did you need many hours of decision making before you made some choice as to be attracted to men or women??? Were you making pro and con lists for days to figure it out???

Does it make sense that for pretty much most people, that it's not a choice, for the same reason it wasn't a choice for you?? That would be a reference. A pretty clear one at that.

Yes, and you are referencing one persons experience (mine) as I was hinting at this is not an area where I have much knowlwedge except perhaps as you have pointed out experientially. I have heard of some people going through a time in their life of sexual confusion. I do not know what that is like whether it is a decision process or something that is worked out. I could not help noticing that you hedged your bets with the statement "pretty much most people".

Gryphon66
It seems to me that the OP projects a "perfect past" akin to 1950s family television shows in which everything and everyone was uniform, homogeneous, and idyllic if not utopian. That perfect past was a product of the hegemony of the Christian religion, in which men were men, women were women, and all variations (or as the OP would have it, deviations) from this ideal had the dignity to hide themselves away from view. This perfection has decayed, in the OP vision, into our "degenerate" society of today.
How, the OP wonders, did this happen?



IN my opinion, of course. Your mileage may vary.

Even though I am not religious, I have to ask you- What was so wrong with the "perfect past" of the 1950's you just described?
Did it come with:

Neighborhoods looking like war-zones
70% of African American babies born out of wed-lock
Abortion
Young men walking around with their pants hanging below their knee caps
High crime rate
High STD rate

No, it didn't. The reason is clear.

Before the major acceptance of liberal policies and abandonment of religion, America was more conservative. This included a adaptation of Protestant values and ideologies such as marriage before children, education, and hard work.

reply to post by QueenofSpades

The acceptance, adoption, and legislation of liberal ideologies plays a huge role in the downfall of our society, mainly for the reasons you mentioned.

Not according to the liberals

LafingWithTears
I could not help noticing that you hedged your bets with the statement "pretty much most people".

Not hedging my bets as it's not a gamble. Just learned a long time ago that almost never make a statement that is an absolute!! (look at that, I did it again!!)

reply to post by QueenofSpades


Are you talking about the real 50s or the imaginary 50s on TV?

Well, if it's the REAL 50s, and if you're African American, I'm sure you don't mind not being able to eat in restaurants, or having to go in the back door, go to a different school, drink from a hose instead of a water fountain, or having to give your seat up on a bus to a White person, or not being allowed to vote, etc. etc. etc.

Or, if you happen to be gay or lesbian, having to live every moment of your life in fear of discovery of what is the most natural thing in the world? Subject to jail or beatings or the absolute ruination of your life?

Or, if you're a woman you're considered too flighty to hold a serious job, too emotional to manage a checkbook, you can be raped with impunity if you're a black woman or if the rapist is a white man, because, after all, you know it's your fault and they "just can't help it."

Please. NO thank you on the Fifties.

"Wedlock" ... are you for real? Just because the parents aren't married doesn't mean there's no family present; that's what's fallacious about that oft-repeated example. Also, that statistic doesn't just affect African Americans ... similar numbers exist with Hispanics (53 %) as well as Native American and Alaskan (66%).

Abortion. I'm assuming you're referring to illegal abortions. Oh yes, much better to find girls hemorrhaging in back alleys eh?

Peculiarities of fashion, like where boys wear their pants waist, is just not on the same order of importance. Why do you care?

Crime didn't exist in the 50s? No STDs either? Funny there were all those WWII movies about gonorrhea and syphilis ...

Liberal values ... you mean like making sure families had enough to eat? Opportunities for jobs? That communities got electricity and new roads, bridges, etc.?

Protestant Values ... so, er, the Catholics were all immoral? Jews didn't believe in Truth, Justice and the American way? The Buddhists were all Communists? Or are these the Protestant Values that say that Whites and Blacks can't marry each other, that girls who have sex should be punished with babies, that gays are all unspeakable monsters ...

Pfft.

Seems you've gotten the real 50s confused with Father Knows Best, frankly.

Every time period in history has its positive and negative features.

1950s America was certainly not the idyllic wonderland for everyone that it's been made out to be.

QueenofSpades
Before the major acceptance of liberal policies and abandonment of religion, America was more conservative. This included a adaptation of Protestant values and ideologies such as marriage before children, education, and hard work.

I didn't realize that liberals were against Education and Hard Work.

Amazing that such a Uneducated and Lazy Group of Liberals could take over America from such an Intelligent, Hard Working and Upstanding Group of Conservatives who already controlled everything in to such a "Perfect" way.

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by frazzle

 

You obviously didn't read my whole comment ~ I said IF there was a way to reverse it. And I DIDN'T say it should be mandatory. Choice.

You obviously didn't read my whole comment

If gay people had that choice later in life it wouldn't negate the fact that prior they didn't have the choice. As such saying the 'mantra of it's a choice should stop' is wrong. People would still be born this way. Just because there is a procedure doesn't negate that. It would be like saying me being a man is a choice because I can have gender reassignment surgery. Yeah…I could. Prior to that my gender certainly wasn't a choice.

If a child is born with a cleft lip and it can be surgically repaired, should the lip remain deformed because they were born with it that way? Once upon a time there was no surgery available to reconstruct such a malady, now there is and babies are still born that way. I don't see your point.

frazzle

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by frazzle

 

You obviously didn't read my whole comment ~ I said IF there was a way to reverse it. And I DIDN'T say it should be mandatory. Choice.

You obviously didn't read my whole comment

If gay people had that choice later in life it wouldn't negate the fact that prior they didn't have the choice. As such saying the 'mantra of it's a choice should stop' is wrong. People would still be born this way. Just because there is a procedure doesn't negate that. It would be like saying me being a man is a choice because I can have gender reassignment surgery. Yeah…I could. Prior to that my gender certainly wasn't a choice.

If a child is born with a cleft lip and it can be surgically repaired, should the lip remain deformed because they were born with it that way? Once upon a time there was no surgery available to reconstruct such a malady, now there is and babies are still born that way. I don't see your point.

The difference is simple.

Homosexuality is not a disease, disability, or deformity.

Your "hypotheticals" don't make things true.

reply to post by Gryphon66

Are you talking about the real 50s or the imaginary 50s on TV?

I grew up in the fifties and to be honest, most of my friends and I lived lives very similar to those portrayed by the more popular TV shows. Of course we were country folk and it could have been very different in the cities. Actually, if anything was ever to be banned I think cities rank right up there. Its the cramming together that causes most of society's problems.

Abortion. I'm assuming you're referring to illegal abortions. Oh yes, much better to find girls hemorrhaging in back alleys eh?

Never heard of any such thing back then. I did know more than a few girls who had shotgun weddings and others who went to facilities designed to help pregnant girls through their ordeals and the babies were adopted out. The screaming that went on IN THE MEDIA about bloody hangers was part of the MEDIA BLITZ to make abortion sound like the only solution.

In my own extended family it isn't difficult at all to see when attitudes began to transform in the sixties to an "if it feels good, do it" kind of society and it brings to mind how the redefinition of words alters us, words like "discriminate" . When I was young, kids were taught to be discriminating about the friends they chose. To choose wisely for future stability and happiness. Suddenly it was a very bad thing to do. Language is primary in defining who we are.

Crime didn't exist in the 50s? No STDs either? Funny there were all those WWII movies about gonorrhea and syphilis ...

War always brings a lot of deviant behavior and the subsequent costs. The US has been at war with one country or another almost without pause since the second world war ended. This too has subliminally altered our perception of who we are and not for the better.

Every time period in history has its positive and negative features.

Undoubtedly. It depends on what the people will tolerate. Apparently that is almost anything.

reply to post by frazzle

I grew up in the fifties and to be honest, most of my friends and I lived lives very similar to those portrayed by the more popular TV shows.

That statement explains your mindset a lot to me. I grew up in the 70s and 80s, and that was the golden age for me. WAs it really all that? Probably not but because that was the period of time I was young it certainly seems like it was better than this era. It is just perspective.

My parents talked the same way about their childhood and their parents felt the same about theirs.

It is no coincidence that you think the age in which you grew up in was a better age you were young naive about the world and had your whole life ahead of you, but I guarantee someone older than you was complaining about how immoral the world had become and wished that everything could back to the way things were when they were a kid.

Take a step back and think about it.

Grimpachi
reply to post by frazzle

 

I grew up in the fifties and to be honest, most of my friends and I lived lives very similar to those portrayed by the more popular TV shows.

That statement explains your mindset a lot to me. I grew up in the 70s and 80s, and that was the golden age for me. WAs it really all that? Probably not but because that was the period of time I was young it certainly seems like it was better than this era. It is just perspective.

My parents talked the same way about their childhood and their parents felt the same about theirs.

It is no coincidence that you think the age in which you grew up in was a better age you were young naive about the world and had your whole life ahead of you, but I guarantee someone older than you was complaining about how immoral the world had become and wished that everything could back to the way things were when they were a kid.

Take a step back and think about it.

Okay, taking a step back to the golden age of my parents. And you're wrong on several levels. Both of my parents came up the hard way and they worked their asses off to give me and my sister an easier time of it than they had had. They lived through the deprivations of both the first and the second world wars and they despised the entire process. But I guess you've never heard the stories that go "I walked to school barefoot through a foot of snow". And I won't go into the experiences of my grandparents but you can be assured that it was never "golden". They persevered, they struggled. What gave them the strength to persevere and to keep up the struggle?

reply to post by frazzle

What gave them the strength to persevere and to keep up the struggle?

Are you somehow under the impression that people do not do that today?

Grimpachi
reply to post by frazzle

 

What gave them the strength to persevere and to keep up the struggle?

Are you somehow under the impression that people do not do that today?

I don't think I have ever given anyone the impression that I think life is golden in this era. My parents were cringing at the depravities of "modern society" and government's role in those depravities long before they passed on and that was some time ago. They would be horrified to see what we have become.

reply to post by frazzle


Exactly my point to you.

So in their minds everything became more depraved as they got older much like how you see everything becoming more depraved as you get older.

Perspective is everything in this case.

Grimpachi
reply to post by frazzle

 

Exactly my point to you.

So in their minds everything became more depraved as they got older much like how you see everything becoming more depraved as you get older.

Perspective is everything in this case.

Either society evolves into something better than before or it devolves. You don't have to look at a wind sock to see which way the wind blows.

Do you wonder if people who survived the civil war didn't look back and wonder how things could have gone so horribly wrong?
Do you wonder if Nam vets didn't/don't look back and wonder how and why they got caught up in such insanity?
Today's vets are killing themselves in greater numbers than the "enemy", which describes just about everybody anymore.
One of today's major military problems is soldiers (from the brass on down) raping their "brothers" and "sisters" in arms?

It has nothing to do with me getting older.

reply to post by frazzle


So you admit every generation has had its problems but in your mind this one is the worst.

As for myself being a third generation soldier I am all to aware of the nature of warfare and the repercussions.

In reality though this is actually the most peaceful time in history hostilities are only rising with one group the religious.

But to stay on topic you should read this article it could give you a bit of perspective.

A Point of View: The perils of belief

reply to post by Grimpachi

So you admit every generation has had its problems but in your mind this one is the worst.

Well I can't speak for the next generations but I'm concerned about them. Like I said, either you evolve or you devolve.

I'll read the article as time permits but I am not a big believer in beliefs, at least government or church driven beliefs. I do believe we're all responsible for our own ACTIONS, regardless of our beliefs.