Social programming + the collapse of religion and values.

reply to post by frazzle

I don't know what else to suggest.

The name of that translation would be a good start…

I agree this is very silly. I am just going to assume you're not giving it because it was one of the translations I've used and you don't want to be wrong.

Carry on.

frazzle
End of subject. I will not respond to any more silliness over it.

Your the one who keeps criticising the quotes being posted and even said that he needs a new Qur'an.

Why bring it up over and over if you think that it is silliness?

reply to post by frazzle


Look at your Quran, it will tell you who did the translation – drop that information into google you can then check and make sure the online copy and your book are in agreement

You can then post the link to Lucid Lunacy

racasan
reply to post by frazzle

 

Look at your Quran, it will tell you who did the translation – drop that information into google you can then check and make sure the online copy and your book are in agreement

You can then post the link to Lucid Lunacy

I would imagine that by now anyone reading this "our boyz" gang bang might be wondering why someone with such an anti-religious attitude would be demanding "the perfect" translation of a religious book, and why one sentence from many pages back has been blown out of all proportion on a thread about the decline of CHRISTIAN beliefs and AMERICAN social values.

It doesn't take the cognizance or comprehension of a fifth grader to figure out that the name of the game here is to distract from the actual topic.

Propaganda and Debate:
4. Blame A Non-Factor
Blame something that isn't really the cause of the problem. (It's a kind of diversion tactic, diverting attention from what is really wrong.)

Personally I think it would be more ON topic to discuss why something like 80% of New York's high school graduates are functionally illiterate. nymag.com...

Or maybe we should be talking about the potential for the documented two-thirds of AMERICAN students who cannot read proficiently by the end of 4th grade to end up in jail or on welfare. Over 70 percent of America’s inmates cannot read above a 4th grade level. www.dosomething.org...

Or maybe we should be more worried about how decent paying jobs were offshored by Bill Clinton's NAFTA/GATT/CAFTA, which translates to 20: 1 Million U.S. Jobs lost resulting in record Income Inequality. www.alternet.org...

Stupid and destitute. With heavy emphasis on the former.

reply to post by frazzle


That is all well and good, but it looks like you are desperately trying to switch the subject most likely because you know you are wrong. If you want to move on why not post your "better translation" deal with it then move on. Seems like you are trying to distract now going "eww...look at these things over here".

reply to post by frazzle



You either have an awesome translation of the Quran or you are playing silly buggers*

*my guess is that this is just the normal shell game Muslims like to play when faced with people who know the Qur'an is worthless

reply to post by frazzle

why someone with such an anti-religious attitude would be demanding "the perfect" translation of a religious book

If I am going to criticize something a book says I would want to make sure it really says it..

and why one sentence from many pages back has been blown out of all proportion on a thread

Frazzle you understand that you brought it up again right? You have made multiple snide comments about me and reading the Quran. On the previous page you made a snide comment about it and I chose to address it. I posted multiple translations for you so you wouldn't waste breath on how it was bad translation…. you did anyways.

about the decline of CHRISTIAN beliefs and AMERICAN social values.

We can get back to this. We have been saying a decline in Christian beliefs isn't a decline in American values as this isn't a Christian nation. It's merely a decline in what Christians perceive to be American values because they are elevating their religious beliefs above the principles America was founded on. Now that we are applying those to gay marriage we are finding denying them it is unconstitutional. Granting them it, unbiblical Too bad, so sad.

It doesn't take the cognizance or comprehension of a fifth grader to figure out that the name of the game here is to distract from the actual topic.

Back when I first posted the verses you attacked me for the ones I used. I asked quite nicely for you to give me a recommendation and told you I would use it instead. You chose not to. Instead you continued to make jabs about it. You dragged it out.

As for the other issues you brought up. Are they the result of brainwashing by the media? Just seeing how well we can tie them into the thread topic.

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by frazzle

 

If I am going to criticize something a book says I would want to make sure it really says it..

And there you have it, you just admitted that you aren't interested in a different version to learn something new or gain new insight, your intent is merely to USE it to criticize. I recognized that fact many pages ago and see no reason why I should or would help you in your primary goal of denigrating what people devoutly believe.

Frazzle you understand that you brought it up again right? You have made multiple snide comments about me and reading the Quran. On the previous page you made a snide comment about it and I chose to address it. I posted multiple translations for you so you wouldn't waste breath on how it was bad translation…. you did anyways.

I went back and looked. YOU brought it back up. Well, you and your sidekicks. Multiple times.

We can get back to this. We have been saying a decline in Christian beliefs isn't a decline in American values as this isn't a Christian nation. It's merely a decline in what Christians perceive to be American values because they are elevating their religious beliefs above the principles America was founded on. Now that we are applying those to gay marriage we are finding denying them it is unconstitutional. Granting them it, unbiblical

Too bad, so sad.

Try to keep your story straight. One minute you are literally surrounded by those yucky Christians and the next you say Christianity is in decline. Which is it?

The principle of religious freedom is only one of the founding principles that have been effectively overthrown. But that doesn't even apply here. There IS no marriage law on the books, how many times do I have to say that, it is contract law. They can't extend what doesn't exist. They can let you sign a contract just like straight people do and they can force people to accept it, mainly through commerce and business licensing laws as just occurred in Arizona. But it isn't like the government showering its blessings down on your new union, they don't care, its just another IRS matter.

But in the end, based on what I've seen and heard so far, I expect the gay community will push their agenda too hard, too fast, and too stridently until there will be, at some point in time, an equal and opposite response from Christians and others, who are, as of yet, the silent majority. It will all come out in the wash.

Back when I first posted the verses you attacked me for the ones I used. I asked quite nicely for you to give me a recommendation and told you I would use it instead. You chose not to. Instead you continued to make jabs about it. You dragged it out.

Suggesting how you might get a copy was a "jab"? Methinks one of us has forgotten how to just say "thank you for the suggestion" and then ignore the suggestion. Like I said, it was clearly understood what you had in mind for any response I might have given. Occasionally I will fall into someone's cleverly laid trap, but that one was too obvious.

As for the other issues you brought up. Are they the result of brainwashing by the media? Just seeing how well we can tie them into the thread topic.

Why wasn't the media challenging the "see say" method of reading instruction when it was so obviously failing? Why wasn't media castigating the education system over the failures of "no child left behind"? Now we have the push for common core and butter STILL wouldn't melt in their mouths. And we already have over a million graduates who can't read. Its about to get worse. I hope you didn't think the government would ever come out and say "sorry, we goofed". That's why we have media, supposedly ~ to keep an eye on the bureaucrats and let us know when they goof. Hah.

Where was the media when Glass Stegall was repealed? That was in 1999, under Clinton, and the media kept their collective mouths shut about the dangers of repealing that age old law until 2012, long AFTER the hedge funders and derivatives traders had crashed the market and the jobs were long gone. www.usnews.com...

Where was the media when, also under Clinton, NAFTA was being touted all across the nation as the savior of North American enterprise? Yeah, the talkers were out there pushing it as hard as they could. And there went some more well paying jobs. They're still going away.

But see, the media isn't any freer than the lowliest beggar in the country. They take orders from the fascists (govt and corporate collusion) they serve and they're required to lie for their 30 ounces of silver or they're blackballed. Oh well, at least they aren't drawn and quartered so I guess we're still semi civilized.

The chips will fall. They're big suckers so try not to be under one.

Grimpachi
reply to post by frazzle

 

That is all well and good, but it looks like you are desperately trying to switch the subject most likely because you know you are wrong. If you want to move on why not post your "better translation" deal with it then move on. Seems like you are trying to distract now going "eww...look at these things over here".

You might want to stop banging your spoon on the tray. You can't have my cookie.

Same goes for your partner.

reply to post by frazzle

You might want to stop banging your spoon on the tray. You can't have my cookie.

Don't have a spoon for this one nor do I need your cookie. However, I am eating popcorn going NOM-NOM-NOM watching you try to slither your way out from the statements you made.

Same goes for your partner.

What?? I am not sure what you mean.

It is interesting how much effort you are putting into trying to dodge what should be easy enough to answer. You made claims remember.

NOM-NOM more popcorn.

reply to post by frazzle

And there you have it, you just admitted that you aren't interested in a different version to learn something new or gain new insight

My motive is truth.

I can say the same thing to you by the way. You don't want to learn or gain new insight because you're unwilling to acknowledge the terrible stuff in that almost best book on good life ways.

I went back and looked. YOU brought it back up.

Look again. This is what you said to me first on the previous page. You're referring to me reading/posting the Quran.

"And a lot of people think one should not take one quote from a book and think he knows everything about it."

I responded to that with more verses. You brought it up.

One minute you are literally surrounded by those yucky Christians and the next you say Christianity is in decline. Which is it?

I see your confusion.

Decline: to become lower in amount or less in number.

Saying it's on the decline is not the same as saying the numbers are small. It just means it's becoming smaller. Understand? My 'story' has been consistent.

My antagonism is against the beliefs not the people. My best friend is a Mormon. Half my extended family is Christian. I am perfectly capable of loving Christians.

But in the end, based on what I've seen and heard so far, I expect the gay community will push their agenda

There is lots of support for LGBT from heterosexual people. This 'agenda' is not exclusive to the gay community.

Suggesting how you might get a copy was a "jab?

You said you would pay me to be your editor. How about I help you out for free. Want me to go grab your exact words?

an equal and opposite response from Christians and others, who are, as of yet, the silent majority

Silent??

Why wasn't the media challenging the...

I will let the other members tackle this. As I told Skorpion I rarely ever watch MSM. I don't use a TV for anything but blu ray movies. I download shows and movies off torrent sites. I literally rarely ever watch the news or see commercials. So I don't have any good answers to these questions. Nor have I been brainwashed by the media I don't watch.

ATTENTION!!!

Personal attacks, bickering and the like will not be tolerated.
It wasn't long ago the religious forums were temporarily closed for such behavior.
Know Posting Bans will be the result of rudeness.

We expect civility and decorum within all topics.

You are responsible for your own posts.

Social Programming in the form of thought police and monitors who scan and consequent deviant behavior and comments while they entertain and embrace moral relativity in theory and not in truth. So monitors and auditors have to be the external objective ultimate absolute authority and impose their values and moral judgments on underlings and subordinates. Religions helped INTERNALIZE absolute morals and values, currently disguised as "ethics". And all the ethics are borrowed from religion and and their morals, which is why the atheism and moral relativism and secular humanism is such a phoney fake preposterous world view.

So the monitors and thought police become the new high priests of the new universal and world wide religion of non offensive and politically correct verbiage. Imposing consequences (penances) for violations to the non intrinsic ethics.

And the new purgatory is suspension of accounts and outlets of opinion.

And the new hell is cancellation of accounts.
And the new heaven or paradise is millions of stars and at a boys from locked stepped simian thinkers who are hostily intolerant of deviance from PC thought and ethical abstract, borrowed from religion, values

reply to post by spirited75

So your saying religious social programming is good but make it non secular and suddenly all the goodness is dawn out of it?

I like the new purgatory and hell much better than the old ones.

reply to post by spirited75

And all the ethics are borrowed from religion and and their morals, which is why the atheism and moral relativism and secular humanism is such a phoney fake preposterous world view.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24
If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

They are both brutally murdered for…. cheating??

Yeah very moral. Very just.

Let's look at a world view from another group of people that don't believe in god. These people lived during the Axial Age or possibly before.

Mahāvira:

All breathing, existing, living, sentient creatures should not be slain, nor treated with violence, nor abused, nor tormented, nor driven away.

Non-violence and kindness to living beings is kindness to oneself.

Kill not, cause no pain. Nonviolence is the greatest religion.

That philosophy existed the same time your 'superior world view' said to stone to death cheaters.

reply to post by spirited75




The bible is far from being moral. I have thought that some of the religious are sociopaths in which case maybe the threat of hell is the only thing keeping them from acting out but for those of us who are not sociopaths we do not need religion to be moral.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


when was Deuteronomy written?

How many years later was Catholic church instituted?

The Catholic church was instrumental in opening and staffing
orphanages, hospitals, schools, universities.

reply to post by spirited75


So the insinuation is secular insitutions today that provide things like that are borrowing their morality from those Catholics?

You missed my point. If morality, good morality, existed prior to the Catholics as I showed, then it's only logical morality doesn't depend on Catholics instilling it into our collective consciousness. Therefore it's more than reasonable secular people today don't depend on religion for it. Why would it have been true for those Jains [for example] way back then but not for thinking people today?

On that note… Some food for thought about humanism in respect to Catholicism...

The Ancient Greek view of philanthropy — that the "love of what it is to be human" is the essential nature and purpose of humanity, culture and civilization — was intrinsically philosophical, containing both metaphysics and ethics. The Greeks adopted the "love of humanity" as an educational ideal, whose goal was excellence (arete)—the fullest self-development, of body, mind, and spirit, which is the essence of liberal education. The Platonic Academy's philosophical dictionary defined Philanthropia as: "A state of well-educated habits stemming from love of humanity. A state of being productive of benefit to humans." Just as Prometheus’ human-empowering gifts rebelled against the tyranny of Zeus, philanthropia was also associated with freedom and democracy. Both Socrates and the laws of Athens were described as "philanthropic and democratic".

The total economic collapse attending the Fall of Rome and leading to the Dark Ages dissolved Classical civilization, replacing it with Christian theology and soteriology, administered through the Roman Catholic Church's ecclesiastical and monastic infrastructures. Gradually there emerged a non-religious agricultural infrastructure based on peasant farming organized into manors, which were in turn organized for law and order by feudalism. For a thousand years Classical humanism hibernated in forgotten manuscripts of monastic libraries.

Philanthropy

Although the term "humanism" was not applied to a philosophy or belief system until the European Renaissance, those early humanists were inspired the ideas and attitudes which they discovered in forgotten manuscripts from ancient Greece. This Greek humanism can be identified by a number of shared characteristics: it was materialistic in that it sought explanations for events in the natural world, it valued free inquiry in that it wanted to open up new possibilities for speculation, and it valued humanity in that it placed human beings at the center of moral and social concerns.

Humanism in Ancient Greece

That's what's lovely about secular humanism. Human beings, here on Earth, are at the center of moral and social concern. It's not of benefit for humanity to value things outside of humanity more. Which is what religion would have of us. Sure if I am wrong and I find myself in Hell I will write you a letter conceding to your victory.

reply to post by mOjOm


"They are also encouraged to be submissive, silent, male dominated baby factories that have no other place than in the kitchen making meals for their husbands and nursing a child. So what. There is always going to be someone trying to influence some lifestyle on others. It's not just one sided. So let them make up their own minds what to do rather than dictating how others should live. You were allowed to choose how you live so let others do the same, is that so hard to understand??? "

Back to some ideas concerning social engineering; In the 60s & 70s there was the womens liberation movement and, ultimaely, it was good prior to women being as commonplace in all areas of work, like you see today, they had to depend on a man at least a lot more than now, that was OK if you happen to have a good man but if not... These days women have options and that is a good thing. But I would suggest that this was social engineering with an eye to develop an un-tapped workforce, broaden the tax base and shift the economy to a two-income economy. Upper middle class can still get away with a single income but solid mddle class, forget about it.
I would further suggest that the military/industrial complex has now eye-balled our girls and that is where the push to get them into combat positions is coming from, they are being viewed as an un-tapped resource, and again the buzz-word
of equality is being used to accomplish this.