Social programming + the collapse of religion and values.

frazzle
Personally, I don't think the pro gay marriage folks have one little thing to worry about anyway. You've got all the support you could possibly ask for to get it done, the white house, congress, media, what more could you want?

The Anti-Gay folk have the Conservatives, the Bigots, the Religious Extremists and of course their all powerful God, so I don't know what they're worried about either. Not to mention they have well over 2000 years of Religious Dogma Brainwashing which still needs to be cleansed from the psyche of the Human Race as well. So there is still plenty of work ahead of us.

mOjOm

frazzle
Personally, I don't think the pro gay marriage folks have one little thing to worry about anyway. You've got all the support you could possibly ask for to get it done, the white house, congress, media, what more could you want?

The Anti-Gay folk have the Conservatives, the Bigots, the Religious Extremists and of course their all powerful God, so I don't know what they're worried about either. Not to mention they have well over 2000 years of Religious Dogma Brainwashing which still needs to be cleansed from the psyche of the Human Race as well. So there is still plenty of work ahead of us.

Let's just hide and watch to see who comes out on top (no pun intended).

Basically I agree with your position regarding the two extreme sides. And I agree that rigid dogma is the death of any belief system, religious or national. But this tug of war ultimately leaves people who just want to be left the hell alone in the middle of somebody else's #$%^ sandwich.

But wait a minute. Did I hear you say religious brainwashing needs to be cleansed from the human race. Pot meet kettle. Lotza little bigots in the soup to go with the sandwich.

Meanwhile, we could very well be looking at WWIII. That should go well with our civil "cleansing" work. Maybe we'll end up looking like Syria before its over.

reply to post by frazzle

Did I hear you say religious brainwashing needs to be cleansed from the human race.

Religion is sure to teach its story to children because of how impressionable they are. If religions all started at say college age we would start seeing drastic declines in religion. In my strong opinion always. This indoctrination is hard to shake off when its ingrained into you as a child. I think religion needs to be 'cleansed' from the planet as well. Not through force though. The World needs to let it go.

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by frazzle

 

Did I hear you say religious brainwashing needs to be cleansed from the human race.

Religion is sure to teach its story to children because of how impressionable they are. If religions all started at say college age we would start seeing drastic declines in religion. In my strong opinion always. This indoctrination is hard to shake off when its ingrained into you as a child. I think religion needs to be 'cleansed' from the planet as well. Not through force though. The World needs to let it go.

Funny thing, that's the same thing Putin says about promoting homosexual sex to RUSSIAN children. He probably can't hear himself think for the gnashing of teeth all the way across the ocean.

But hey, I have a problem with the way American History is taught to impressionable children in the US school system, so I know where you're coming from.

frazzle

Let's just hide and watch to see who comes out on top (no pun intended).

Basically I agree with your position regarding the two extreme sides. And I agree that rigid dogma is the death of any belief system, religious or national. But this tug of war ultimately leaves people who just want to be left the hell alone in the middle of somebody else's #$%^ sandwich.

Well, that's pretty much who's causing the noise in all this is the extremists. The middle of the road folks on either side mind their own business like most of us. It's those damn "over achievers" and "go getters" that need to ease up a bit so we can all have a little peace.

But wait a minute. Did I hear you say religious brainwashing needs to be cleansed from the human race. Pot meet kettle. Lotza little bigots in the soup to go with the sandwich.

Yep, but keep in mind I'm not really talking about all Religious Ideas. Many of them are just normal every day ideas that most people hold anyway. I'm talking more about the stuff that is either "Way out there" or the stuff causing people to hate one another. (I'm not going into detail for obvious peace keeping reasons.) This also includes some modern religious ideas like Xenu, or Majic Underwear, etc. etc...

Meanwhile, we could very well be looking at WWIII. That should go well with our civil "cleansing" work. Maybe we'll end up looking like Syria before its over.

Well, look on the bright side, atleast WWIII might shorten the time we'll have to spend fighting our Civil War!!

mOjOm
Really good discussion so far.

I think another thing that should be addressed is whether or not the questions being asked are misleading from the start. I believe Gryphon touched on this a bit earlier as did a couple others. For example:

If the collapse of religion and age-old traditional values did not occur by accident, then it would have had to have been achieved by mysterious forces working behind the scenes to program the masses into accepting strange new ideas. If so, then who or what is it? And what do they stand to gain from rewriting social norms and diminishing religion?

Are the two possible choices given here really the only two possible answers??? Accident or Hidden Manipulation. Also, why isn't the Old Traditional Conservative Religious System considered to be Manipulation???

Couldn't the changes be attributed also to the increase of information, as others have said which I totally agree with, added with the ability for any and all ideas to be expressed regardless of how small of a group those ideas represent???

Perhaps what we are witnessing is the Breakdown of the Old Manipulation because of the multitude of new ideas being put forward. Each one of these ideas representing it's own form of Manipulative Agenda, hidden or not???

Just something to consider...

Just a point in support of the OPs ideas. The ruination of the family helps mortgage companies (banks) and here is how; a family purchases a home, down the road they split up and sell the home with little or no equity, one or both parents then re-marry, they start the process over. When they pass on the kids from the first family typically get hosed, if they do not they are still splitting an inheritance with 1/2 siblings from the next marriage(s) this makes for much smaller inheritances and often uglier where lawyers end up with most of everything. this leaves little for a down payment for new home purchases thus each generation starts over. I would suggest that wealthy people take a generational perspective of their wealth and that they would like to discourage us commoners from looking at wealth in this way. Whether the 50s Ozzie & Harriet ideal was ever a reality is open for debate, divorce rates, however, are not www.google.com... edu%2Fsocy441%2Ftrends%2Fdivorce.html&docid=fqYFg38_pYagnM&imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vanneman.umd.edu%2Fsocy441%2Ftrends%2Fdivorce.jpg&w=800&h=600&ei=Ge 8LU5PBKaKVygH39oGYDQ&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=1062&page=1&start=0&ndsp=16&ved=0CF0QrQMwAw

mOjOm

frazzle

Let's just hide and watch to see who comes out on top (no pun intended).

Basically I agree with your position regarding the two extreme sides. And I agree that rigid dogma is the death of any belief system, religious or national. But this tug of war ultimately leaves people who just want to be left the hell alone in the middle of somebody else's #$%^ sandwich.

Well, that's pretty much who's causing the noise in all this is the extremists. The middle of the road folks on either side mind their own business like most of us. It's those damn "over achievers" and "go getters" that need to ease up a bit so we can all have a little peace.

But wait a minute. Did I hear you say religious brainwashing needs to be cleansed from the human race. Pot meet kettle. Lotza little bigots in the soup to go with the sandwich.

Yep, but keep in mind I'm not really talking about all Religious Ideas. Many of them are just normal every day ideas that most people hold anyway. I'm talking more about the stuff that is either "Way out there" or the stuff causing people to hate one another. (I'm not going into detail for obvious peace keeping reasons.) This also includes some modern religious ideas like Xenu, or Majic Underwear, etc. etc...

Meanwhile, we could very well be looking at WWIII. That should go well with our civil "cleansing" work. Maybe we'll end up looking like Syria before its over.

Well, look on the bright side, atleast WWIII might shorten the time we'll have to spend fighting our Civil War!!

Thanks for clarifying. I overreacted and I apologize for that. Again you're speaking of extremism and as irritating as that is, its almost possible to feel some pity for them, that has got to be the most exhausting mindset of all. you'd think they'd all just drop dead from self induced heart attacks.

It would be good if our government's extreme ideas would simmer down, too. Like you said, they're causing people to hate, not each another, but us. I just don't see how that can end well.

reply to post by frazzle


Your comment reminds me of something I read once. There was a geneticist that also happened to be Baptist, he said that not only was homosexuality genetic but that given enough research support he could prevent it. He was attacked by both sides, homosexuality being genetic did not fit in with most fundies world view and the gay community did not like the idea of viewing this as a problem that needed fixing.

reply to post by LafingWithTears


Yep, its all about money. You can't have a stable, moral nation without a stable currency. The more unstable and diminished the value of money becomes, the more graft and thievery and debauchery will rise up. I guess that's about where we are today.

LafingWithTears
reply to post by frazzle

 

Your comment reminds me of something I read once. There was a geneticist that also happened to be Baptist, he said that not only was homosexuality genetic but that given enough research support he could prevent it. He was attacked by both sides, homosexuality being genetic did not fit in with most fundies world view and the gay community did not like the idea of viewing this as a problem that needed fixing.

Absofrickinglutely!

reply to post by frazzle


Yeah, well the ol' "Divide and Conquer" does work so well after all I doubt it's going to change too soon. Unless the bulk of us start to see and celebrate our similarities rather than our differences that is. The day when we can just hang out together, BBQ and play some volleyball and have some beers together is the day that we'll see things start changing. By we I mean Gay, Straight, Religious, Non-Religious, Mormon, Jews, Black, White, Fat, Old, Short, Etc...All together, having a good time, nobody pushing their ideals upon one another. Just people chillin with people.

reply to post by frazzle

says about promoting homosexual sex to RUSSIAN children.

I don't think anyone should be promoting any kind of sex to children.

reply to post by LafingWithTears

gay community did not like the idea of viewing this as a problem that needed fixing.

It's not just the gay community that has a problem with that worldview. There is huge support from the 'straight community' for LGBT.

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by frazzle

 

says about promoting homosexual sex to RUSSIAN children.

I don't think anyone should be promoting any kind of sex to children.

Agreed. Wow. I was hollering about that back in the 70s.

But you will admit there was a lot of Putin/Russia bashing when that anti-gay-promotion law passed. It even impacted US media reporting surrounding the Olympics. Well, that and Putin putting the kibosh on the US attacking ~ oops, I mean "liberating" Syria.

We're just not winning any friends around the world.

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by LafingWithTears

 

gay community did not like the idea of viewing this as a problem that needed fixing.

It's not just the gay community that has a problem with that worldview. There is huge support from the 'straight community' for LGBT.

edit on 24-2-2014 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)

We know it is claimed that there is huge support from the straight community, although no one really knows the percentages. But that little issue aside, IF a way to reverse homosexuality was discovered, remaining gay would no longer be "I was born this way" and it would then become a choice. Obviously no one can tell how many people would opt for the treatment and as far as I'm concerned it isn't any of my business anyway, it would be between the patient and the doctor (or should be). But the it isn't a choice mantra would be over.

reply to post by frazzle

We know it is claimed that there is huge support from the straight community, although no one really knows the percentages.

What are you hinting at? That it's really a small percentage?

IF a way to reverse homosexuality was discovered, remaining gay would no longer be "I was born this way" and it would then become a choice.

If it was done at prenatal/birth how the hell would that be a choice coming from the baby? lol

If it was done later in life then sure. However, if it was a procedure done later it life that wouldn't somehow stop gay people from being born that way. So either why you're wrong.

But the it isn't a choice mantra would be over.

How many people, straight, gay, or otherwise, are saying it was a choice. Sure seems like most people say it's not a choice. We are to believe the straight folk when they say it but not everyone else?

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by frazzle

 

We know it is claimed that there is huge support from the straight community, although no one really knows the percentages.

What are you hinting at? That it's really a small percentage?

IF a way to reverse homosexuality was discovered, remaining gay would no longer be "I was born this way" and it would then become a choice.

If it was done at birth how the hell would that be a choice coming from the baby? lol

If it was done later in life then sure. However, if it was a procedure done later it life that wouldn't somehow stop gay people from being born that way. So either why you're wrong.

But the it isn't a choice mantra would be over.

How many people, straight, gay, or otherwise, are saying it was a choice. Sure seems like most people say it's not a choice. We are to believe the straight folk when they say it but not everyone else?

I'm not hinting at anything, I'm saying no one knows. Remember, this isn't a democracy.

I do think parents should play some kind of role in decisions regarding their children's lives. Choice.

You obviously didn't read my whole comment ~ I said IF there was a way to reverse it. And I DIDN'T say it should be mandatory. Choice.

Maybe there are even some straight people who would choose to have their straightness reversed, how the hell do I know. Choice.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


If I remember the article correctly, it would be more like an in utero procedure.
I remember in th 70s it was called a sexual preference, implying choice. Later on people claimed to be born with these tendencies. I have no proof or anything to reference, just my opinion, but I would suggest for some it is more choice, others more genetic.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

"It's not just the gay community that has a problem with that worldview. There is huge support from the 'straight community' for LGBT."

Ha Ha, yes well, I wonder given the option of a perfeclty safe procedure how many of these supporters from the straight community would opt to genetically steer their progeny away from such dispositions?

LafingWithTears
reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

 

If I remember the article correctly, it would be more like an in utero procedure.
I remember in th 70s it was called a sexual preference, implying choice. Later on people claimed to be born with these tendencies. I have no proof or anything to reference, just my opinion, but I would suggest for some it is more choice, others more genetic.

Really??? No reference at all about People's Sexuality huh???

I'm assuming you're also a Human Being right??

I'm going to assume you have some sort of Sexual Preference yourself yes???

That would be the most obvious reference I think.

At that point, think about how much of a choice was it for you. Did you need many hours of decision making before you made some choice as to be attracted to men or women??? Were you making pro and con lists for days to figure it out???

Does it make sense that for pretty much most people, that it's not a choice, for the same reason it wasn't a choice for you?? That would be a reference. A pretty clear one at that.