i didnt want to be "that" guy, but here it is, the reason the collapse is happening.

reply to post by reeferman

The rich already have had a grip on America for generations.

Nope, if you look at history of western civilization, you will see that the rich have continuously lost control.

Under the GW admin, the rich sure got the upper hand, but as recently as the 90ties, the middle class was enjoying prosperity. Someone else on one of these threads pointed out that the middle class has been going downhill since 1979, and that is true, but odds are that we will turn things around once again.

America's economy is a critical piece of the world's economy, but the developed nations of the world have been diversifying away from it for years.

As a result the potential collapse within America does not mean global collapse. I realize that when your own personal world is collapsing around you and your community it is hard not to think the entire globe is going to hell-in-a-handbasket with you, but other G7/20 nations are doing quite well.

In fact maybe it is their turn to help the US economy recover instead of vice-versa.

onequestion
Lets add some perspective to this conversation before it gets out of hand....

Asian Immigrants To U.S. Now Surpass Hispanics

About 430,000 Asians, or 36 percent of all new immigrants, arrived in the U.S. in 2010, according to the latest census data. That's compared to about 370,000, or 31 percent, who were Hispanic.

You know why this doesnt get attention, because they are not preparing us for integration with ASIA.

That, and the elite can't exploit Asians to racially divide us, because:

a.) There's little "white guilt" about Asians, and

b.) Asians generally do really well here, exposing the lie that "The Man" is keeping minorities down.

So the media just pretends Asian-Americans don't exist. There's about five of them working in Hollywood.

reply to post by Leonidas

The Fed and World and IMF banks are all tied together . They are ran essentially the same ilk . The Fed. Reserve is a privately owned consortium of 12 banks owned by the men who have their hands into the World and IMF banks . Remember the derivative scheme that bankrupted countries in Europe . If the dollar fell so would China who would have no orders because the rest of the world would freeze their own economies .

Other countries have different banking systems and are doing fine.

Even Canada survived 2009 very well because it has substantially different banking rules. Being next door to America is a blessing and a curse. There is a saying that when the America has the flu, Canada catches a cold (or something like that). Higher deposit percentage rules and lending regs. mean that they experience a slow-down but not a catastrophic collapse of real estate values.

The IMF is bigger than any one country. That is why it exists Many Individual countries still have control over their own fate. America has a HUGE unfunded infrastructure debt that looms large over State and county budgets because of it. Many counties have torn up roads and converted them to gravel to lower maintenance costs. Russia has an even bigger problem, and that mitigates their large cash reserves.

The problem with stats. is that every one has a counter or a "ya, but".

The world economy is not about to collapse. The social system is not about to shut down.

reply to post by Leonidas

Leonidas
America's economy is a critical piece of the world's economy, but the developed nations of the world have been diversifying away from it for years.
[...]
In fact maybe it is their turn to help the US economy recover instead of vice-versa.

I hope this isn't meant to be a reproach because it somewhat reads like it.
Regarding help/investment for the U.S. economy: lack of will is not the problem (i.e.: VW investment in Michigan / Tennessee), but you'd have to change the flaws in your closely intertwined fiscal & foreign policies first before any help would be of any use.

Not a reproach at all. I apologize if it came across that way, it is not meant to be. There are regional powerhouse economies that have significant follow-on effects on those around it.

Russia wields it's power clumsily, Germany is altruistic, America is insular. That has not always been the case.

Immigration is just one part of the problem. Unsustainable growth in general is going to destroy our country, but the increase in corporate control of the government and us is the other huge piece of the puzzle. The dumbing down and conservatization of America is the third piece of our doom.

CB328
Immigration is just one part of the problem. Unsustainable growth in general is going to destroy our country, but the increase in corporate control of the government and us is the other huge piece of the puzzle. The dumbing down and conservatization of America is the third piece of our doom.

Immigration can be both positive and negative. An immigrant nation like America would not even exist if weren't for immigration.

One of the darkest consequences of protracted recessions is an increase in racism and prejudice. The "other" is much easier to blame for difficult times. It is human nature to find someone ELSE to blame for misfortune.

Snsoc

onequestion
Lets add some perspective to this conversation before it gets out of hand....

Asian Immigrants To U.S. Now Surpass Hispanics

About 430,000 Asians, or 36 percent of all new immigrants, arrived in the U.S. in 2010, according to the latest census data. That's compared to about 370,000, or 31 percent, who were Hispanic.

You know why this doesnt get attention, because they are not preparing us for integration with ASIA.

That, and the elite can't exploit Asians to racially divide us, because:

a.) There's little "white guilt" about Asians, and

b.) Asians generally do really well here, exposing the lie that "The Man" is keeping minorities down.

And the crime rate of Asians is much lower.. they don't REFUSE to learn/speak English

AND. they don't wave around foreign flags with a "we are taking this land back" attitude

reply to post by Leonidas


The Rothschild headed banking monopoly has strangled the world financial exchange systems .BRICs has very little chance of succeeding . The Congress of Vienna back in 1815 eludes to their aspirations of world domination . The Rothschilds could easily collapse the world market system . They have been said to have a plan from the 1800s to do that .

reply to post by oblvion

By your reasoning everyone in Hong Kong should be dead several times over given their tiny resource base and huge population. If you think immigration is bad in the US you should see what happened to Hong Kong. Most of what you need for a healthy economy is low government spending. Given extremely high government spending in the US, the economy of the US will permanently slow for as long as the high spending is in place.

You would think that if you lived in a place where resources are plentiful then that would be the main cause of having a good economy. But no, because governments own everything and then decide how much each of their surfs like you will get.

If your line of reasoning is right we should all put strict borders around every neighborhood. We could build tall cement walls. I don't want you coming into my neighborhood to steal my job, and I shouldn't be allowed to move into your neighborhood to steal your job. We should put customs inspection around each neighborhood to make sure fruit and vegetables are not spreading to take over neighborhoods where they are not native. Your reasoning is bad but if you can make predictions that come true based on your immigration ideas I will change my mind.

Hoosierdaddy71
I believe that the downward spiral started when we switched from a manufacturing base to a service base. The factories left the country and the offices stayed here. Look at Pittsburg, no steel mills. Look at Detroit,no cars. We import way to much stuff now and it's biting us in the butt. Funny thing though, if we employed all the unemployed by making all the things we use, we would not have enough workers to build all that we use now.

We couldn't afford our labour. This isn't china, wages are higher. Then the prices of all these products we use, goes up. Cost of living goes up . It always has.

Note to OP: There has been no collapse if you are "wealthy".

www.bloomberg.com...
www.bbc.co.uk...
economix.blogs.nytimes.com...



The "wealthy" named in the above articles are just the poor suckers who havent had the proper guidance (generational wealth) to learn to hide it.

By collapse, you mean less opportunities to borrow wealthy peoples money.
This is hardly the fault of immigrants.

This is the most pathetic KKK OP I've read on this site, as a latin american who lives in his country and not in america by the way, I feel that the whole thing lying under the arguments of the OP is blatant racism and that is all there is to it, now let me explain to you why I believe this OP is utterly pathetic:

-Capitalism is based on laissez faire, or so the theory goes, so the more laissez faire or put it another way, the more the goverment doesn't interfere with the economy, the more effective it is.
-When there is too much of a certain goods, the price tends to drop.

Based on these two facts, well the first is more subjective but the second is clearly a fact, the fact that illegal immigrants take your jobs is because: The jobs don't require any education, therefore anybody can do it, even people who don't even speak english, you don't see doctors or lawyers complaining about not having enough clients because mexican immigrants do their same work cheaper do you? But I'm sure the MacDonalds jobs and the cleaning toilet jobs are done by latino immigrants, which is fine, because the market is at work.

On the point of legal or illegal immigration. Any capitalist wants less interference of the State in the economy, this is what's called laissez faire, I feel you would like tough laws that make it hard for poor latino immigrants to go work to your country, you would demand people that live in misery to learn english - a thing you didn't demand from your italian-french-german immigrants a 100 years ago -, so, what difference does it make? The US goverment knows it's not doing anything against illegal immigrants, it's working in a laissez faire manner!! but they could make a law tomorrow that lets anybody go to your country anyways, but what's important more than laws it's how they enforce them, the lack of enforcement indicates me the whole immigration thing is all part of the plan.

So, tell me, if you agree with laissez faire and the logical argument that more workers drives the price of labor down (one of the objetives of the FED, by the way), why would you whine of the current situation, if it's the market working the way it's supposed to, because remenber no doctor is complaining about not being able to find work because of illegal immigrants taking his job, then what?

violet

Hoosierdaddy71
I believe that the downward spiral started when we switched from a manufacturing base to a service base. The factories left the country and the offices stayed here. Look at Pittsburg, no steel mills. Look at Detroit,no cars. We import way to much stuff now and it's biting us in the butt. Funny thing though, if we employed all the unemployed by making all the things we use, we would not have enough workers to build all that we use now.

We couldn't afford our labour. This isn't china, wages are higher. Then the prices of all these products we use, goes up. Cost of living goes up . It always has.

You mean there would not be as much profits.
In china, the average chinese does not have the freedom and rights will still have where they can pressure their government to impose controls on those that would piss in their rivers and pollute their skies. The big corporations that went to china are successful because of china commie government and they want to take away our freedoms and rights to do the same here.

reply to post by Nevermind86


You're right in pointing out that illegal immigration hurts the low-pay sectors (not directly the middle-class) by causing oversupply of low wage workers.

Your'e wrong claiming the U.S. has laissez-faire capitalism. They don't.
Laissez-faire capitalism only exists for those in the U.S. who have the pockets to "lobby" themselves out of corporate taxation.
Middle class and small businesses cannot afford this, which creates an unfair disadvantage for them so they simply cannot compete/employ/pay anyone, nor offer goods for affordable prices.
This distorts their markets and isn't laissez-faire capitalism at all, but CORPORATISM... and THAT'S what kills the U.S. middle-class.

reply to post by Leonidas

Leonidas
One of the darkest consequences of protracted recessions is an increase in racism and prejudice. The "other" is much easier to blame for difficult times. It is human nature to find someone ELSE to blame for misfortune.

Two birds with one stone.
Throw your nation (and the financial system around the world) in a recession without any consequences, because the peons in the U.S. are busy blaming each other.

reply to post by Nevermind86


The construction unions demand english, not because of racism, but safety. Union shops have to meet strict OSHA safety laws. It is the same at other jobs where safety is an issue.

My husband's family immigrated from Germany at the beginning of the century. Like other immigrants before them, no one had to tell them to speak english, they wanted to.

I worked with a lot of illegals and they do not want their children to learn english until they hit the first grade. Maybe that makes them feel good about their Mexican nationalism, but it does the schools no good. They get a lot of the teacher's time.

reply to post by Nevermind86


I assure there is not one ounce of racism in the op , I would know, I wrote it.

I have several times in the early pages of this thread explained who I blame and why, and none of it is on the illegal immigrants.

They are innocent, they are the symptom not the disease.

I would without a doubt have done the same thing as them if the situation were reversed.

It is the fault of the government for not enforcing their border like every other nation on earth, and making it easy for them to stay once they are here.

Hell they all but helped them pack their things back home and drove them here.

Both political parties are at fault, for different reasons.

The demos wanted a crop of new voters, the republicans wanted cheap labor for their corporate masters.

Neither thought about the consequences of their actions.

Your analogy about a doctor or lawyer and regular folks doesn't hold up, it is illegal to practice either without a license, so their jobs are protected by law and regulation.

There is nothing protecting the construction workers, or the factory workers etc.....

I hope this explains more fully my intentions.