i didnt want to be "that" guy, but here it is, the reason the collapse is happening.

I have put a lot of thought into this subject, and have for years now watched learned and researched, my conclusions won't be popular, and they will be depressing, and in no way PC.

The entire collapse of the worlds economy can be linked to one single issue, this single instance was the first domino to fall that started the downward spiral that is unstoppable.

Many of you have heard seen me post in a lot of threads about workers/pay and financial issues. I have often tried to talk sense about the "new" economy, most ignore and argue how things used to work a decade back and longer.

This is the scenario.

America has a strong manufacturing and construction base, which has fueled the middle class for generations.

The .gov allowed 17,000,000 illegal low wage workers to come in, didn't actually enforce immigration laws, and caused the collapse of middle class living.

I am a true believer in the capitalist economy, it works if properly utilized.

However, according to free market economics, add ALOT of any resource, no matter its value, and the price plummets.

Now over then last 20 years the .gov has allowed( I say this because no other nation on earth would let this happen, as economic ruin for the middle class is the only outcome, obviously. And no other nation on earth has allowed this, at any single time in recorded history because of the outcome) 17,000,000 low wage illegal immigrants to come to America and undercut the workers, driving down their wages, even as corporate profits rose to never before seen heights.

Now Americans have less money, they buy less goods and services, the corps all see the writing on the wall, and outsource expensive American jobs, for lower waged foreign labor, to keep costs the same so they don't price out their customers.

Now even more folks have less money, as the economy shifts to either super high wage or low wage jobs. The majority being primarily low wage jobs, meaning even fewer folks can afford goods.

So they shift the outsourced jobs from Mexico to china, where labor is even cheaper.

At this point people stuck in long term mortgages and loan payments can't make them, which inclined the liberals to force .gov controlled lenders fanny and Freddy to give out sub prime loans to folks they knew would default, because " not enough poor folks can get a home loan".

Which led to the financial collapse.

The only recourse was to give the already super rich more money to stop their over bloated institutions from collapsing and imploding the economy.

Except, if they had given 1,000,000,000,000 the the average folks, the loans would have been repaid,new cars purchased, and basically stimulated the entire economy back to life.

They didn't do this, they gave it those at the top, to stop a recovery, because they don't want one, they want a collapse.

One where we are all slaves to minimum wage, reliant on the .gov for food in the way of food stamps, so that we will finally be enslaved once and for all.

There will still be a scant few that make it out of poverty, to provide the illusion of hope, to keep the masses at ease, but for most, there will not be any hope at all, no matter what you do in life.

This has all actually occurred, and is in the process of being fully realized.

Please America, pretty please..........wake the F up.

Demand reforms, don't ask, don't plead, demand them NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please, if not for you, at least for your kids, please wake up, please look around, most of your fellow Americans are broke and poor, or on the verge of being so.

I know I can't be the only person that sees this, saw it coming, warned of it for years, and even tried to help interdict it before it could happen.

great read. thanks.

so I see it that your main concern is the high number of illegal immigrants taking jobs away from the middle class.

What do you think could be done about the illegal immigrants though? It would be heartless to kick them out and they are going to just keep coming in unfortunately.

I saw this at least 35 years ago, maybe longer.

When I was young, like 15 to 19 years old, I used to say the world spins on a bearing made of money, and eventually, if it gets turning fast enough, that bearing will burst into flames and everything will come to a grinding halt.

Looks like I was right, even though I really didn't know enough about anything to really know what I was even saying really.

Thank you for your post. It pleases me to see a well put together group of thoughts on here

Now a question: Do you think the current administration's amnesty program and immigration reforms are going to be of any assistance, or are they just too little too late?

My thoughts behind the amnesty thing are that if the "illegal immigrants" become visa carriers then their employers are forced to pay them according to minimum wage laws and they are bound to the max hours per work week/overtime pay etc. Could this be one of the reasons they granted amnesty?

I look forward to the discussion in this thread!

Solar

So I'm guessing by 17 thousand you mean 17 million, and by .gov you mean the United States government.

[snip]

Okay, so you're racist, and choose to focus on illegal immigration. Gotcha.

Why no mention of the federal reserve, or the declining EROI for domestic energy production?

Why no mention of the US going off the gold standard in the 70's, or spreading their military thin fighting resource wars?

Why no mention of the declining math and science scores compared to other developed nations, and the fall of tech related patents coming from the United States?

How are we supposed to take you seriously when you don't even understand basic economics, or US history?

When did illegal immigration start? Was this country not founded by immigrants?

Would you argue that slavery led to financial ruins generations ago by exploiting people for work with less resources needed to obtain it?

I think there's so many holes in your reasoning. It clearly points to insecurities, and pure ignorance.

Stop watching Fox News.

I believe that the downward spiral started when we switched from a manufacturing base to a service base. The factories left the country and the offices stayed here. Look at Pittsburg, no steel mills. Look at Detroit,no cars. We import way to much stuff now and it's biting us in the butt. Funny thing though, if we employed all the unemployed by making all the things we use, we would not have enough workers to build all that we use now.

reply to post by CleanCare

How many companies / corporations have been raked over the coals for hiring undocumented workers?. One?, Two?, I haven't heard of very many at all really, but there are a lot of them out there who do hire undocumented workers, we all know that.

You think maybe if the, so called "Illegals" (I despise that stupid term BTW) didn't have the potential for gaining employment here they would even come here?.

The problem is not illegal immigrants, the problem is that there are so many businesses that are more than happy to take advantage of their being here.

Capitalism = Exploitation

reply to post by webedoomed


I would like to point out that this country was not built on illegal immigrants, they were legal. You've heard off Ellis island i presume. And for the record I have no problem with Mexican immigrants, I just want them signed up on the way into the country.

reply to post by MyHappyDogShiner


This is a part of the plan to intergrate the North American Continent into the Amero. This is why they dont fix the borders, the dollar bill changes, we now have social healthcare.

Its all apart of the plan.

CleanCare
great read. thanks.

so I see it that your main concern is the high number of illegal immigrants taking jobs away from the middle class.

What do you think could be done about the illegal immigrants though? It would be heartless to kick them out and they are going to just keep coming in unfortunately.

I don't feel any malice towards them, I mean put yourself in their shoes, I would try to come here also.

I know quite a lot actually working mostly construction in my youth, they are industrious hard working, family oriented types. Basically all around good folks in general. They do have their bad apples, but who doesn't honesty?

My main topic wasn't illegals BTW, it was those in power allowing them in to undercut the average middle class worker, but I can see you missed that part.

CleanCare
great read. thanks.

so I see it that your main concern is the high number of illegal immigrants taking jobs away from the middle class.

What do you think could be done about the illegal immigrants though? It would be heartless to kick them out and they are going to just keep coming in unfortunately.

Heartless.

It's amazing how many moral people would intentionally break the economy on behalf of those who come from a place with a broken economy.

Lets add some perspective to this conversation before it gets out of hand....

Asian Immigrants To U.S. Now Surpass Hispanics

About 430,000 Asians, or 36 percent of all new immigrants, arrived in the U.S. in 2010, according to the latest census data. That's compared to about 370,000, or 31 percent, who were Hispanic.

You know why this doesnt get attention, because they are not preparing us for integration with ASIA.

SolarObserver
Thank you for your post. It pleases me to see a well put together group of thoughts on here

Now a question: Do you think the current administration's amnesty program and immigration reforms are going to be of any assistance, or are they just too little too late?

My thoughts behind the amnesty thing are that if the "illegal immigrants" become visa carriers then their employers are forced to pay them according to minimum wage laws and they are bound to the max hours per work week/overtime pay etc. Could this be one of the reasons they granted amnesty?

I look forward to the discussion in this thread!

Solar

. Actually I think amnesty would help the situation, as once they have to be paid at the market standard the undercutting stops.

When they are treated as "people" then all will be equal in the market, no more looking over an American at minimum wage for an illegal at $2 less an hour.

reply to post by Hoosierdaddy71


Notice I said immigrants founded the country, not illegal immigrants. No reason to point out what was obvious.

This is a clear case of confusing correlation for causation.

What came first, the decline in ability to hire full wage workers and keep companies afloat, or the illegal immigrants?

The immigrants came in waves as the employers were willing to hire them. That was out of necessity.

The jobs were outsourced as the corporations couldn't find enough profits to stay in the US.

Tension is what created these trends. There are underlying causes to these tensions.

I've seen this going on from where I live. In my local area, one business after another has been shutting down. Most of the people out buying things (at like, dollar stores) are those of us who live on social security income. I saw this American collapse roll along steadily after about 1970. I went into the military in 1981 because my home town was becoming an economic nowhere'sville.
It's been a global plan all along. The "globalization" of poverty and serfdom. ("Austerity")

reply to post by webedoomed


The only thing that is obvious is that you called the thread author a lazy ,ignorant racist that must watch Fox News.
Sticks and stones budy.

Most companies are bringing work back into the US. low cost equaled low quality and it finally caught up not to mention the customers lost their jobs. There was an article last week about how our town has no empty factories. small gain 8 were empty at the low point but now they are expanding. Our company is spending a billion in the US on manufacturing because things in China went worse than planned.

reply to post by onequestion

Mandatory Health Insurance is not Social Health Care.

If the ridiculous amount of tax we pay on absolutely everything was put toward a social health care system, we could extend our misery for a few years at least, but now everyone has to pay more per month to pay for health insurance by law, cutting disposable income and further collapsing the economy.

Corporations were Un-Lawful in the U.S. till the 1890's for good reason, they were part of the reason, a big part, for the War for Independence.

Heartless Immortal legal fictions exist here to reap ridiculous profits, and claim the right of "personhood" without the liabilities and responsibilities of an actual living "person".

The Literal Heart of The Problem is a fiction.

reply to post by webedoomed

Wow....where to begin......you might want to investigate before jumping to so many abstract ideas about my mind state.

I am no racist, I do not begrudge the Latin Americans that came here for hope of a better life, I would have, and would like to think you would have tried like wise in their place.

I do begrudge the most powerful military on earth not being able to simply hold a border like every single other nation on earth seems to do just fine.

It is the .gov that allowed this to happen, and yes .gov I do mean the federal government, what else would .gov mean since that is the designation of all their sites on the same medium we are communicating on, thought someone that can find ATS in the entire net would understand this easily.

As to your other insultingly condescending points, the entire thread doesn't simply play out in the op. The opening post is a starting post in this type of discussion, that will evolve as others add their thoughts.

In all actuality I know a lot about economics, I simply made the op simplistic as I thought possible to fuel further discussion.

reply to post by MyHappyDogShiner


Im just blown away that thats what you took out of my post.