A Game of Logic: The Holy Spirit and I VS ALL NoN-believers

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by Joecroft

 

Yes I did say it was off topic

You could have just said you were not interested

You suggested all of us do something, so I felt compelled to investigate it. Any hoot.

Heres for an off topic; Jesus never was promoting 'christianity' he was simply trying to unify the Jewish faith (it borrows heavily from) with its originator; the Egyptian Mystery schools of the 'winged disk' quabala etc. Jesus was the Horus/Osiris architype Mary Magdeline of Bethany First Apostle (Lazurus's sister) was Isis. Paul is the true author of 'Christianity'; Jesus never would have promoted this, (he had a different plan) that of telling the truth about the real origins of the Talmud (btw he was only a Jew as far as ethnicity was concerned, he was not of the Hebreic religion or a rabbi as some believe, he was an Essene (mystery schooled) as well was John the Babtist.

reply to post by Akragon


The OT is Shadow Christology. Christ is the revelation of the OT. Separate Jesus' words from the context of the OT and you neutralize His message. Its not subject to alternative interpretation. No other collection of literature fits together as seemlessly as the Old and New Testaments.

There are still prophecies pending fulfillment.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

Separate Jesus' words from the context of the OT and you neutralize His message.

That is simply untrue... Without the OT Christ's message still stands strong...

What you've just said was taught to you by a preacher... There are references to Jesus, that is true... but without the OT his message remains pure... and truth.

And the fact remains, its the Hebrew bible, which is also not necessary to Christianity in any way shape or form

FlyersFan

BELIEVERpriest
You have made your opinion and lack of faith clear, but you still havnt proven anything.

1 - I have absolutely proven Noahs Ark did not happen.
2 - It's not my 'opinion'. It's FACT.
3 - So because I can prove that the Noahs Ark story is impossible, that means I have a 'lack of faith' in God? That's absurd.
4 - If 'faith' is determined by having to profess to literally believe in that which has been debunked .. then that just makes believers idiots.

There is nothing 'fluid' about the science that disproves Noahs Ark. It's rock solid. The DNA evidence proves it is impossible. The genetics proves it's impossible. The fact is 13 million critters couldn't have fit on the ark. Animal distribution and bio diversity around the planet proves that it didn't happen. The flood would have killed the oceans and everything in them ... and yet the oceans live. Ancient coral reefs are untouched and they should have died. Algae deposits in fossil layers proves the flood didn't happen, because the flood would have killed all the algae. That much water would have destroyed the earths crust ... but it didn't. Ice layers date back 40,000 years, but should have been destroyed by a flood .. yet they are in tact.

PANDO Tree Colony

Pando (Latin for "I spread"), also known as The Trembling Giant,[1][2] is a clonal colony of a single male quaking aspen (Populus tremuloides) determined to be a single living organism by identical genetic markers[3] and one massive underground root system. The plant is estimated to weigh collectively 6,000,000 kg (6,600 short tons),[4] making it the heaviest known organism.[5] The root system of Pando, at an estimated 80,000 years old, is among the oldest known living organisms.[6][7]
Pando is located 1 mile southwest of Fish Lake on Utah route 25.[8] in the Fremont River Ranger District of the Fishlake National Forest, at the western edge of the Colorado Plateau in South-central Utah, at N 38.525 W 111.75.

Science Daily
At this time there are 6.5 million land animal species on the planet. There were even more back in what was supposedly Noahs time. Two of each animal would mean at least 13 million animals on that boat. NOT A CHANCE!! Couldn't happen.

Light doesnt penetrate the ocean more than about 500 ft. if the earth were submerged under 29,000 ft. in order to cover mt. everest, no marine plant life would have survived and the oceans would be dead. Obviously that didn't happen.

Could Noahs' Ark Have Actually Happened?

If the 2350 date were correct, then human civilization would’ve had to undergo an extreme population explosion in the millenium following the flood. According to Biblical sources, there would have been millions of Jews leaving Egypt, so assuming a global population of 40 million around that time (~1350 BC), and comparing that to global population estimates later in history (an estimated 200+ million by 0 AD), would require an incredibly high population growth between 2350 BC and 1350 BC (5,000,000 fold increase in 1,000 years), and a much lower population growth after 1350 BC – usually less than 5 fold population growth within any 1,000 year period between 1350 BC and 1800 AD.

(3) The distribution of animals is not what we would expect if there were a global flood killing all life. If all life was limited to the top of a mountain in the Middle East in 2350 B.C., then how to explain the distribution of animals across the world? All the kangaroos on the Ark went to Australia? How did the animals get to the Americas? If they crossed via an ice-bridge in the Bering Strait, then the Americas should be limited to animals that are warm blooded and capable of traveling hundreds of miles across snow. This means no reptiles, no spiders, etc. Yet, the Amazon contains a wide variety of animal biodiversity. And why didn’t American desert animals stay behind in the deserts of the Old World? (See related post: “Creationism versus Animal Biodiversity”)

(4) Genetic evidence shows that human beings are far to genetically diverse to be descended from a single family in 2350 B.C. If Noah’s Ark were true, then all men alive today would’ve gotten their Y-chromosomes from Noah, and all human mitochondrial DNA would come from Noah’s wife and the three daughter-in-laws. Studies of the human Y-Chromosome show that you’d need far more than 4,300 years to accumulate that many mutations. Human beings could not be descended from a single male in 2350 B.C. What the studies show, instead, is that, in order to explain the number of mutations in the human Y-Chromosome, you have to allow for roughly 60,000-90,000 years. Similarly, human mitochondrial DNA requires roughly 160,000 years to accumulate that many mutations — showing that Eve could not have lived 6,000 years ago as the Bible says.

AND MORE INFORMATION AT THAT SITE.

Adam and his Eves - A lesson on DNA and population distribution for you

Creationism vs Biodiversity

Additionally, once the animals left the Ark, there are a lot of nearby regions they could inhabit, but didn’t. For example, all varieties of rattlesnakes are found in the Americas (33 species, and numerous subspecies). There are none in the Old World – despite the fact that there are regions similar to the American deserts – the Sahara, the Middle East, the Gobi Desert, etc. Llamas fit this same pattern – found in the New World, but not in the Old World. The Caucus (where the Ark supposedly landed) and Himalaya mountains have different species than the Rocky Mountains and Andes. Why didn’t some of the Rocky Mountain species stick around in the Caucus Mountains – they were already there the minute they stepped off the Ark. Similarly, the species in the South American tropics aren’t found in Old World tropics (Southeast Asia and Africa), and vice-versa. For example, New World cats and monkeys are different species than Old World cats and monkeys. Theoretically, with the movement of creatures caused by the global flood, one could find the same species living in distant places. Somehow, we don’t.

National Geographic - Human DNA Journey
For Noahs Ark to have happened exactly as the bible claims, we'd expect the highest levels of genetic diversity to be in the Middle East. But the fact is that the highest levels of human genetic diversity occur in Africa where humanity evolved.

Noahs Ark Doesn't Float

Miles of coral reef, hundreds of feet thick, still survive intact at the Eniwetok atoll in the Pacific Ocean. The violent flood would have certainly destroyed these formations, yet the rate of deposit tells us that the reefs have survived for over 100,000 undisturbed years. Similarly, the floodwaters, not to mention the other factors leading to a boiling sea, would have obviously melted the polar ice caps. However, ice layers in Greenland and Antarctica date back at least 40,000 years.

Impact craters from pre-historical asteroid strikes still exist even though the tumultuous floodwaters would have completely eroded them. If these craters were formed concurrently with the flood, as it has been irresponsibly suggested, the magnificent heat from the massive impacts would have immediately boiled large quantities of the ocean, as if it wasn’t hot enough already. Like the asteroid craters, global mountain ranges would exhibit uniform erosion as a result of a global flood. Unsurprisingly, we witness just the opposite in neighboring pairs of greatly contrasting examples, such as the Rockies and Appalachians.

Even if we erroneously assume there to be enough water under the earth’s surface in order to satisfy the required flood levels, the size of the openings necessary to permit passage for a sufficient amount of water would be large enough to destroy the cohesive properties of the earth’s crust. However, the outer layer is firmly intact, and there’s no evidence indicating that it ever collapsed. All this hypothetical escaping water would have greatly eroded the sides of the deep ocean fissures as well, but no such observable evidence exists for this phenomenon either.

We can also observe algae deposits within the fossil layers, a phenomenon that could not have formed during the flood because they require sunlight to thrive. It’s quite reasonable to assume that the clouds would have thoroughly obstructed the sunlight during such a tremendous rain indicative of the flood. Setting aside this and all other known fossil inconsistencies with the Bible, archaeologists have found human footprints within the upper layers. Moving water simply could not have deposited these markings. As I alluded to earlier, this seemingly endless list of geological problems was completely unforeseeable to the primitive authors, thus the Bible offers no justifications or explanations for our discoveries.

The only thing I cant understand about Noahs Ark is the animals dispersion, like Marsupials living in Australia.

The rest of your post proves nothing, proves you have blinders on.

Read your own words and see the assumptions made by you and science.

Oh and dating methods as rock solid evidence....please

Mountain and the floods

and as for the number of animals on the ark, thats flawed in every way shape and form

You have proven nothing, the only thing I saw proven is how highly you esteem yourself

reply to post by borntowatch


Continental drift may account for some animal dispersion in addition to sea trade between (now fallen) civilizations.

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by Akragon

 

The OT is Shadow Christology. Christ is the revelation of the OT. Separate Jesus' words from the context of the OT and you neutralize His message. Its not subject to alternative interpretation. No other collection of literature fits together as seemlessly as the Old and New Testaments.

There are still prophecies pending fulfillment.

I totally agree with you

Some people will never hear I am afraid, think you will be banging your head against a tree with some around here

I like this line

"No other collection of literature fits together as seemlessly as the Old and New Testaments."

reply to post by Akragon


Yes, I was taught by a Pastor, but my research is independent. I never believe a claim before looking into it for myself. You have to distort Jesus' words to say it stands separate from the OT. If the connection does not stand out to you, then I doubt you will ever understand it.

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by borntowatch

 

Continental drift may account for some animal dispersion in addition to sea trade between (now fallen) civilizations.

Strangely I dont think the continents float, on tectonic plates or whatever

Guess I will just have to rely on faith

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by Akragon

 

Yes, I was taught by a Pastor, but my research is independent. I never believe a claim before looking into it for myself. You have to distort Jesus' words to say it stands separate from the OT. If the connection does not stand out to you, then I doubt you will ever understand it.

No my friend, I understand all the so called connections to the OT... And almost every one needs to be read into because there is nothing that is directly related to Jesus... Prophecy within the OT about Jesus is sketchy to say the least...

Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies about the Messiah... Thus by saying the OT is necessary to understand him, you actually nullify his status as messiah...

The third temple was not built...

He was supposed to Gather all jews back to the land of Israel... Perhaps that was done, but again its sketchy....

He was supposed to usher in a world of peace and harmony... didn't happen, likely never will

And he was supposed to spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel... also didn't happen, and in fact many people like myself believe the so called god of Israel is in fact a rather dubious character... I would even say evil

I've researched Christianity from top to bottom... inside and out...

The fact remains, Jesus words stand strong on their own.... even without a page in the OT

and I would actually say Christianity would likely be better off if they ditched the OT anyways...

reply to post by Akragon


Whatever, choose your own poison. We will all know the truth in a few more years. For many, it will be too late.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


considering I choose the books that include the words of Jesus.... I would hardly call it poison

to each their own I suppose... Once Christians realise he isn't coming back, perhaps they will look to the message he left and try to live by it instead of listening to people who believe they understand him.

Preachers will get you no where, but reading his words will

Then again who am I kidding.... Christians have been waiting for his return for 2000 years... and 150 years from now Christians will still be saying "hes coming soon"

deny the facts all you want... Stick to the OT.... but as I've said, by saying its necessary... you remove his status as messiah

Now personally... I would call that poison

BELIEVERpriest
In less than a decade, many of the scientific facts that you use as a crutch will be rewritten.

Scientific fact isn't a 'crutch' ... it's fact. And all that gobbly-gook that you posted was senseless. Admit it ... Noahs Ark didn't happen. It's just that simple. You can't prove it happened ... and quoting a myth that has been (poorly) transposed by the Hebrews from the Summerians isn't 'proof'. However, I have just proven that it didn't happen ... proven with SOLID SCIENTIFIC FACT.

borntowatch
The rest of your post proves nothing, proves you have blinders on.

.... says the person with his eyes closed; his fingers in his ears; all the while singing 'lalalalalaaa'.
The people with blinders on are those who go around screaming that people have a 'lack of faith'
when the truth about Noahs Ark not happening is accepted.

You have proven nothing, the only thing I saw proven is how highly you esteem yourself

1 - Typical fundamentalist tossing out insults when he can't face facts.
2 - I have proven Noahs Ark didn't happen. It's all there in solid evidence. Deal with it.


If Noahs Ark happened - 16 million critters would have been on the ark. That's impossible.
If Noahs Ark happened - there would be polar bears and penquins and armadillos (etc) living in Turkey.
If Noahs Ark happened - human DNA diversity would be magnitudes less than what it is today.
If Noahs Ark happened - the human race couldn't reproduce and survive with only 3 pair of reproducing humans.
If Noahs Ark happened - the ancient civilizations of India would be disturbed. They aren't.
If Noahs Ark happened - where did all the water come from?
If Noahs Ark happened - where did all the water go? Not into space. Impossible.
If Noahs Ark happened - the Earths crust would have collapsed from the weight. It didn't happen.
If Noahs Ark happened - the oceans would be DEAD. And so would we because we can't live without them.
If Noahs Ark happened - the 100,000 year old reefs would be destroyed and dead. They are not.
If Noahs Ark happened - the sea algea would have all died from severe lack of sunlight for months and months, but we know from core samples it survived fine.
If Noahs Ark happened -we would have evidence of it in the ice core samples from the poles. There is no evidence in the samples.

borntowatch
Some people will never hear I am afraid, think you will be banging your head against a tree with some around here

Yes ... you refuse to listen to the facts. Either out of ego our out of fear. Either way ...
Noahs Ark - Proven Not To Have Happened

BELIEVERpriest
Continental drift may account for some animal dispersion in addition to sea trade between (now fallen) civilizations.

WHAAAAAT? Take a science class. Continental drift didn't all happen in the past 4,000 years.
It is estimated 200 million years for North America to separate from Europe.
It is estimated 20 million years for Africa to separate from South America.
The planet didn't break apart and suddenly and massively shift 4,000 years ago taking animals with it.

And what are you talking about with 'sea trade between civilizations?
If Noahs Ark happened ... there would be no 'civilizations' trading.
Every human being on the planet would be in Turkey.
There would be no civilizations trading or carting around wild animals.

And obviously - looking at the 'civilizations around the world' you can see that the civilizations went along uninterrupted. So that means NO FLOOD.


You people really need to take a science class once in a while. YIKES.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

Meaning all you have to do is disprove one thing with a 100% certainty, and you have won the game.

Disprove one thing?


Your thread title being A game of logic would be more suited as a game of delusion.

Please make your first post a question or a statement you think disproves the Bible,

You believe as I do in supreme being right?

When you can prove this being exists then you can ask for proof or any evidence that what you have proven to be incorrect.

You want discuss faith, its faith that proves God is real to people and its faith that disproves God to others.

I will start out with I believe the Bible to be divinely inspired, but lets go a little more in depth with that. I believe Spirit-moved men wrote down God-breathed words, and that the original autographs of the Bible are completely perfect. The modern English translations of the Bible are 100% copies of its originals.(If this statement seems like BS, I suggest How We Got Our Bible by Norman Geisler.) Therefore, the Bible we have today should be perfect. Meaning all you have to do is disprove one thing with a 100% certainty, and you have won the game.

That's nice, you believe it to be divinely inspired but want others to prove its not, like I said, first prove it is before asking other to research and prove its not for you.

FlyersFan

borntowatch
The rest of your post proves nothing, proves you have blinders on.

.... says the person with his eyes closed; his fingers in his ears; all the while singing 'lalalalalaaa'.
The people with blinders on are those who go around screaming that people have a 'lack of faith'
when the truth about Noahs Ark not happening is accepted.

You have proven nothing, the only thing I saw proven is how highly you esteem yourself

1 - Typical fundamentalist tossing out insults when he can't face facts.
2 - I have proven Noahs Ark didn't happen. It's all there in solid evidence. Deal with it.


If Noahs Ark happened - 16 million critters would have been on the ark. That's impossible.
If Noahs Ark happened - there would be polar bears and penquins and armadillos (etc) living in Turkey.
If Noahs Ark happened - human DNA diversity would be magnitudes less than what it is today.
If Noahs Ark happened - the human race couldn't reproduce and survive with only 3 pair of reproducing humans.
If Noahs Ark happened - the ancient civilizations of India would be disturbed. They aren't.
If Noahs Ark happened - where did all the water come from?
If Noahs Ark happened - where did all the water go? Not into space. Impossible.
If Noahs Ark happened - the Earths crust would have collapsed from the weight. It didn't happen.
If Noahs Ark happened - the oceans would be DEAD. And so would we because we can't live without them.
If Noahs Ark happened - the 100,000 year old reefs would be destroyed and dead. They are not.
If Noahs Ark happened - the sea algea would have all died from severe lack of sunlight for months and months, but we know from core samples it survived fine.
If Noahs Ark happened -we would have evidence of it in the ice core samples from the poles. There is no evidence in the samples.

borntowatch
Some people will never hear I am afraid, think you will be banging your head against a tree with some around here

Yes ... you refuse to listen to the facts. Either out of ego our out of fear. Either way ...
Noahs Ark - Proven Not To Have Happened

edit on 2/24/2014 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

So you rad one website and become a fundamentalist yourself, atheist fundamentalist. Atheist who attacks and preaches their doctrine
We disagree, I understand your position but disagree
I am aware of your argument but still disagree

The big road block for me is the 200 year old science that is the geological time scale, then there are many more.

Relax, dont burst a vein, we are allowed to disagree

They are not facts, just assumptions based on what you think is someone elses position.

Lets disagree and accept we have different opinions.
It wont kill you

FlyersFan

BELIEVERpriest
Continental drift may account for some animal dispersion in addition to sea trade between (now fallen) civilizations.

WHAAAAAT? Take a science class. Continental drift didn't all happen in the past 4,000 years.
It is estimated 200 million years for North America to separate from Europe.
It is estimated 20 million years for Africa to separate from South America.
The planet didn't break apart and suddenly and massively shift 4,000 years ago taking animals with it.

And what are you talking about with 'sea trade between civilizations?
If Noahs Ark happened ... there would be no 'civilizations' trading.
Every human being on the planet would be in Turkey.
There would be no civilizations trading or carting around wild animals.

And obviously - looking at the 'civilizations around the world' you can see that the civilizations went along uninterrupted. So that means NO FLOOD.


You people really need to take a science class once in a while. YIKES.

Please tell me that you accept continental drift as a proven fact, seems that is what you are saying

thats enough

borntowatch
So you rad one website and become a fundamentalist yourself, atheist fundamentalist. Atheist who attacks and preaches their doctrine

Acknowledging the FACT that Noahs Ark didn't happen doesn't make someone a 'fundamentalist atheist'. That's absurd. I fully believe in God. And more than half the Christians on the planet know that Noahs Ark and the creation myth of Adam and Eve did not happen ... that the Old Testament isn't to be read literally. None of them are 'fundamentalist atheists'. They are christians. Literal belief in the Old Testament myths isn't a requirement to be a Christian or a believer in God. Only a small percentage of fundamentalist Christians think that. And they are wrong.

They are not facts, just assumptions based on what you think is someone elses position.

No ... they are FACTS. They aren't assumptions .. they aren't 'positions' .. they are scientific facts.

You haven't proven even one of the facts presented to be wrong.
EACH FACT on it's own proves that the Noahs Ark myth didn't happen.
Discuss the facts. Prove this science wrong. Go ahead ... give it a try.

If Noahs Ark happened - 16 million critters would have been on the ark. That's impossible.
If Noahs Ark happened - there would be polar bears and penquins and armadillos (etc) living in Turkey.
If Noahs Ark happened - human DNA diversity would be magnitudes less than what it is today.
If Noahs Ark happened - the human race couldn't reproduce and survive with only 3 pair of reproducing humans.
If Noahs Ark happened - the ancient civilizations of India would be disturbed. They aren't.
If Noahs Ark happened - where did all the water come from?
If Noahs Ark happened - where did all the water go? Not into space. Impossible.
If Noahs Ark happened - the Earths crust would have collapsed from the weight. It didn't happen.
If Noahs Ark happened - the oceans would be DEAD. And so would we because we can't live without them.
If Noahs Ark happened - the 100,000 year old reefs would be destroyed and dead. They are not.
If Noahs Ark happened - the sea algea would have all died from severe lack of sunlight for months and months, but we know from core samples it survived fine.
If Noahs Ark happened -we would have evidence of it in the ice core samples from the poles. There is no evidence in the samples.

borntowatch
Please tell me that you accept continental drift as a proven fact, seems that is what you are saying
thats enough

Continental drift happened ... over 200 million years. It did NOT happen suddenly in the last 4,000 years since Noahs Ark was supposed to have happened. So trying to say that continental drift is why animals were able to get around the planet after the ark landed ... that's just seriously WRONG.

It has often been emphasised that Christianity is unlike any other religion, for it stands or falls by certain events which are alleged to have occurred during a short period of time some 20 centuries ago. Those stories are presented in the New Testament, and as new evidence is revealed it will become clear that they do not represent historical realities. The Church agrees, saying:
"Our documentary sources of knowledge about the origins of Christianity and its earliest development are chiefly the New Testament Scriptures, the authenticity of which we must, to a great extent, take for granted."
(Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, p. 712)

The Church makes extraordinary admissions about its New Testament. For example, when discussing the origin of those writings, "the most distinguished body of academic opinion ever assembled" (Catholic Encyclopedias, Preface) admits that the Gospels "do not go back to the first century of the Christian era" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, p. 137, pp. 655-6). This statement conflicts with priesthood assertions that the earliest Gospels were progressively written during the decades following the death of the Gospel Jesus Christ. In a remarkable aside, the Church further admits that "the earliest of the extant manuscripts [of the New Testament], it is true, do not date back beyond the middle of the fourth century AD" (Catholic Encyclopedia, op. cit., pp. 656-7). That is some 350 years after the time the Church claims that a Jesus Christ walked the sands of Palestine, and here the true story of Christian origins slips into one of the biggest black holes in history. There is, however, a reason why there were no New Testaments until the fourth century: they were not written until then, and here we find evidence of the greatest misrepresentation of all time.

Extracted from Nexus Magazine, Volume 14, Number 4 (June - July 2007)
by Tony Bushby © March 2007

What the Church doesn't want you to know