A Game of Logic: The Holy Spirit and I VS ALL NoN-believers

Brothers and Sisters,

I have been on ATS for a while, and sometimes quite honestly I make a fool of myself. I do not know everything, but I do know that Biblical Christianity is one of the most logical religions I have come in contact with on earth.

I will start out with I believe the Bible to be divinely inspired, but lets go a little more in depth with that.

I believe Spirit-moved men wrote down God-breathed words, and that the original autographs of the Bible are completely perfect. The modern English translations of the Bible are 100% copies of its originals.(If this statement seems like BS, I suggest How We Got Our Bible by Norman Geisler.)

Therefore, the Bible we have today should be perfect. Meaning all you have to do is disprove one thing with a 100% certainty, and you have won the game.

Please make your first post a question or a statement you think disproves the Bible, or the BIBLICAL God. Also remember that when discussing the Biblical God the only things we know for certain about him are the aspects attributed to him in the Bible.

ServantOfTheLamb
Brothers and Sisters,

I have been on ATS for a while, and sometimes quite honestly I make a fool of myself. I do not know everything, but I do know that Biblical Christianity is one of the most logical religions I have come in contact with on earth.

I will start out with I believe the Bible to be divinely inspired, but lets go a little more in depth with that.

I believe Spirit-moved men wrote down God-breathed words, and that the original autographs of the Bible are completely perfect. The modern English translations of the Bible are 100% copies of its originals.(If this statement seems like BS, I suggest How We Got Our Bible by Norman Geisler.)

Therefore, the Bible we have today should be perfect. Meaning all you have to do is disprove one thing with a 100% certainty, and you have won the game.

Please make your first post a question or a statement you think disproves the Bible, or the BIBLICAL God. Also remember that when discussing the Biblical God the only things we know for certain about him are the aspects attributed to him in the Bible.

......................................................................................................
I am a believer too but I will play for the fun of it.....
how about when the Bible says we will be caught up in the clouds during the "rapture" I Thessalonians 4:16-17?
this gives Christians the visual that they will be taken up into the sky but the actual translation for this is the air in your lungs. So......more like the "rapture" (a made up word that isn't even in the bible) is internal or having to do with the close air you are breathing

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

Therefore, the Bible we have today should be perfect. Meaning all you have to do is disprove one thing with a 100% certainty, and you have won the game.

Ok, I'll bite.

Romans 13
4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

The fact that while Romans 13 was being written the rulers were killing Christians and throwing them to the lions goes to show that this is 100% incorrect. If rulers only bear the sword against wrongdoers, what wrong were those Christians doing in order to be persecuted and killed for nearly 300 years? Is spreading the truth somehow wrong to the biblical god?

If Paul believed that the rulers were god's servants who only brought punishment on wrongdoers, why was he eventually beheaded under the reign of Nero? What wrong was he doing by spreading Jesus' gospel? This whole passage sounds like an ad campaign for the rulers.

What do I win?

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

Remember. You did ask...

Respectfully. No matter how old, and/or how true the modern bible is to the original manuscripts. By itself, it carries no more weight than Homer's Iliad and Odyssey. It all comes back to faith.

UxoriousMagnus

ServantOfTheLamb
Brothers and Sisters,

I have been on ATS for a while, and sometimes quite honestly I make a fool of myself. I do not know everything, but I do know that Biblical Christianity is one of the most logical religions I have come in contact with on earth.

I will start out with I believe the Bible to be divinely inspired, but lets go a little more in depth with that.

I believe Spirit-moved men wrote down God-breathed words, and that the original autographs of the Bible are completely perfect. The modern English translations of the Bible are 100% copies of its originals.(If this statement seems like BS, I suggest How We Got Our Bible by Norman Geisler.)

Therefore, the Bible we have today should be perfect. Meaning all you have to do is disprove one thing with a 100% certainty, and you have won the game.

Please make your first post a question or a statement you think disproves the Bible, or the BIBLICAL God. Also remember that when discussing the Biblical God the only things we know for certain about him are the aspects attributed to him in the Bible.

......................................................................................................
I am a believer too but I will play for the fun of it.....
how about when the Bible says we will be caught up in the clouds during the "rapture" I Thessalonians 4:16-17?
this gives Christians the visual that they will be taken up into the sky but the actual translation for this is the air in your lungs. So......more like the "rapture" (a made up word that isn't even in the bible) is internal or having to do with the close air you are breathing

The word rapture derives from the Greek word 'harpazo' which literally means to seize, or carry off. When the Bible was translated from Greek to Latin close to 1700 years ago they used a Latin word that we pronounce "rapture." The verse as far as a can tell means those with the breath of life(those still living) will be carried off. The word Lucifer isn't in the original text, but does that mean there is no devil mentioned in the Bible?

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

Therefore, the Bible we have today should be perfect. Meaning all you have to do is disprove one thing with a 100% certainty, and you have won the game.

Ok, I'll bite.

Romans 13
4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

The fact that while Romans 13 was being written the rulers were killing Christians and throwing them to the lions goes to show that this is 100% incorrect. If rulers only bear the sword against wrongdoers, what wrong were those Christians doing in order to be persecuted and killed for nearly 300 years? Is spreading the truth somehow wrong to the biblical god?

If Paul believed that the rulers were god's servants who only brought punishment on wrongdoers, why was he eventually beheaded under the reign of Nero? What wrong was he doing by spreading Jesus' gospel? This whole passage sounds like an ad campaign for the rulers.

What do I win?

edit on 32011616CST323 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

Romans 13 is tricky, but it is important to remember that man has free will. God cannot make a person do something only give them the opportunity to choose the right path. Romans 13 says that God uses the governments, but does it say that everything the Government is done is sanctioned by God no. I think you are taking it to literal rather than how the author intended the book to be taken.

Ill play. Simple questions first.

For now, lets just assume God is real. I am guessing this will be easy for you to do.

What proves that the Bible is actually written by God? Anyone can claim anything about what they have written, so what is it exactly that proves it was written by anything other than humans? Are there any incorrect versions of the Bible?

ServantOfTheLamb

UxoriousMagnus

ServantOfTheLamb
Brothers and Sisters,

I have been on ATS for a while, and sometimes quite honestly I make a fool of myself. I do not know everything, but I do know that Biblical Christianity is one of the most logical religions I have come in contact with on earth.

I will start out with I believe the Bible to be divinely inspired, but lets go a little more in depth with that.

I believe Spirit-moved men wrote down God-breathed words, and that the original autographs of the Bible are completely perfect. The modern English translations of the Bible are 100% copies of its originals.(If this statement seems like BS, I suggest How We Got Our Bible by Norman Geisler.)

Therefore, the Bible we have today should be perfect. Meaning all you have to do is disprove one thing with a 100% certainty, and you have won the game.

Please make your first post a question or a statement you think disproves the Bible, or the BIBLICAL God. Also remember that when discussing the Biblical God the only things we know for certain about him are the aspects attributed to him in the Bible.

......................................................................................................
I am a believer too but I will play for the fun of it.....
how about when the Bible says we will be caught up in the clouds during the "rapture" I Thessalonians 4:16-17?
this gives Christians the visual that they will be taken up into the sky but the actual translation for this is the air in your lungs. So......more like the "rapture" (a made up word that isn't even in the bible) is internal or having to do with the close air you are breathing

The word rapture derives from the Greek word 'harpazo' which literally means to seize, or carry off. When the Bible was translated from Greek to Latin close to 1700 years ago they used a Latin word that we pronounce "rapture." The verse as far as a can tell means those with the breath of life(those still living) will be carried off. The word Lucifer isn't in the original text, but does that mean there is no devil mentioned in the Bible?

.................................................................
Not sure why we switched to Lucifer but I will bite....Lucifer is only mentioned once and it was used to chastise a city and it's leader. Like calling someone a jackal....are they really a jackal? The devil is only really mentioned in depth in the old testament in the book of Job and it makes my skin crawl because it paints a very different picture than what we are all taught in Sunday school. ..

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


It says that whatever authority is established is established by god and that rulers are his servants for our good. Servants aren't servants if they go against the will of their master.

I think the author's intentions are pretty clear and he meant exactly what he wrote. If rulers were servants for Paul's and Christianity's good they wouldn't have persecuted them nonstop for nearly 300 years.

Ephesians 6
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

If our struggle is against the rulers and authorities of this world as this verse states, why does Paul say that the rulers and authorities are god's servants for our good? If our struggle is against the rulers, doesn't that mean our struggle is against what god has established?

Romans 13
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

Isn't struggling the same thing as rebelling? Was Paul (who wrote both epistles) bringing judgement against himself by struggling against the rulers and authorities who he says were established by god for our own good?

The contradiction is clear as day, though Christians will never admit it. It's not much of a game if you don't play fair and can never lose.

Klassified
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

Respectfully. No matter how old, and/or how true the modern bible is to the original manuscripts. By itself, it carries no more weight than Homer's Iliad and Odyssey. It all comes back to faith.

edit on 1/7/2014 by Klassified because: spelling

In the science of textual criticism it carries much more weight due to the fact that it carries three times the manuscript evidence on which to recreate the original. I will agree a certain degree of faith is required to believe some aspects of the Bible. There is a way to eliminate blind faith from the category though. However God does tell us in the Bible that if anything written doesn't come true then we shouldn't believe that person was a prophet of God. So what does God tell us to look for to know he is the author of the Bible? Prophecy. Three of the best. The destruction of Tyre. Isaiah 45-Isaiah calls out king cyrus by name 300 years before the even described happens. Third-

Hebrew



English

Adam Man
Seth Appointed
Enosh Mortal
Kenan Sorrow
Mahalalel The Blessed God
Jared Shall come down
Enoch Teaching
Methuselah His death shall bring
Lamech The despairing
Noah Rest, or comfort

Chuck Missler shows the meaning of the names in Genesis. This shows you Gods plan was laid out from the beginning. Man (is) appointed mortal sorrow (but) the blessed god shall come down teaching his death shall bring the despairing comfort.

Serdgiam
Ill play.

Simple questions first.

For now, lets just assume God is real. I am guessing this will be easy for you to do.

What proves that the Bible is actually written by God? Anyone can claim anything about what they have written, so what is it exactly that proves it was written by anything other than humans? Are there any incorrect versions of the Bible?

What proves it was written by God is prophecy. Are there any incorrect versions? I would say some are translated less correctly, but no doctrinal changes are ever made.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

There is a way to eliminate blind faith from the category though.

Could you elaborate a bit on this point? What is this way and how does it eliminate blind faith?

2 Corinthians 5
7 For we live by faith, not by sight.

If Christians live by faith and not by sight they live by blind faith. There is no eliminating blind faith from the equation because the bible says it's supposed to be in there.

UxoriousMagnus
.................................................................
Not sure why we switched to Lucifer but I will bite....Lucifer is only mentioned once and it was used to chastise a city and it's leader. Like calling someone a jackal....are they really a jackal? The devil is only really mentioned in depth in the old testament in the book of Job and it makes my skin crawl because it paints a very different picture than what we are all taught in Sunday school. ..

I didn't swap I was only using that to show that just because the word "rapture" isn't in the Bible doesn't mean the words concept is not found.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


"It says that whatever authority is established is established by god and that rulers are his servants for our good. Servants aren't servants if they go against the will of their master.

I think the author's intentions are pretty clear and he meant exactly what he wrote. If rulers were servants for Paul's and Christianity's good they wouldn't have persecuted them nonstop for nearly 300 years."

I agree it says that, and it is still that way today. Governments put in place laws and law-enforcers to punish sinful acts. Does it say that the ruler's will only do God's will, and never sin or be drunk with power no. You cannot take these verses and then exclude the rest of the Bible's message. That is not being honest. God's Law comes before Man's Law, but God uses Man's Law to punish the sinful. Ex. Murders and rapist are sent to prison or receive the death penalty. You are taking it as though the authorities will be as righteous as God. Also, We have discussed this before, but as the tribulation nears your should expect the government to become more and more corrupt based on prophecy.

Ephesians 6

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The verse in its context tells you to stand against Immoral rulers. God takes his wrath out on many countries, and uses other governments to do so. Logically we can assume that Romans 13 doesn't apply to every single dynasty and empire for the entire duration of its reign. Remember the Bible is to be taken as a whole when viewed as a message from God. When it is these two parts are not Illogical follow the authorities, so long as they are doing as they are supposed to according to Gods law and not the wiles of the devil.

ServantOfTheLamb
Please make your first post a question or a statement you think disproves the Bible, or the BIBLICAL God.

Noahs Ark. Didn't happen. It's a rip off of the Summerian folklore stories which were 'Hebrew-ized'. All of humanity could not have come from 3 pair of reproducing humans floating on a boat and landing in Turkey 6,000 years ago. Two of all the animals of the world couldn't walk to Turkey and get in a boat, float around, then walk home and repopulate the animal population. It's genetically and numerically impossible for both the humans and the animal stock.

Therefore, the Bible is not exact and pure and completely accurate as you claim it is.

My note - There isn't much of 'God' in the Old Testament. There are a lot of people claiming to speak for God, and interjecting their own notions and cultural situations into the dialog and claiming those things were from God. But there isn't much of the real 'God'.

FlyersFan

ServantOfTheLamb
Please make your first post a question or a statement you think disproves the Bible, or the BIBLICAL God.

Noahs Ark. Didn't happen. It's a rip off of the Summerian folklore stories which were 'Hebrew-ized'. All of humanity could not have come from 3 pair of reproducing humans floating on a boat and landing in Turkey 6,000 years ago. Two of all the animals of the world couldn't walk to Turkey and get in a boat, float around, then walk home and repopulate the animal population. It's genetically and numerically impossible for both the humans and the animal stock.

Therefore, the Bible is not exact and pure and completely accurate as you claim it is.

My note - There isn't much of 'God' in the Old Testament. There are a lot of people claiming to speak for God, and interjecting their own notions and cultural situations into the dialog and claiming those things were from God. But there isn't much of the real 'God'.

Wow,
I see very bold claims with no references. Noah's Ark didn't happen, or a Global Flood didnt happen?

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

I agree it says that, and it is still that way today. Governments put in place laws and law-enforcers to punish sinful acts. Does it say that the ruler's will only do God's will, and never sin or be drunk with power no. You cannot take these verses and then exclude the rest of the Bible's message. That is not being honest. God's Law comes before Man's Law, but God uses Man's Law to punish the sinful. Ex. Murders and rapist are sent to prison or receive the death penalty. You are taking it as though the authorities will be as righteous as God. Also, We have discussed this before, but as the tribulation nears your should expect the government to become more and more corrupt based on prophecy.

You cannot ignore these verses and block them out with the rest of the bible, that is intellectually dishonest. Why did you ask non-believers to point out something that is not true if you didn't plan on acknowledging the inconsistencies?

Governments are no more corrupt today than they have ever been, we only have more deadly tools today than ever before. Rome burned Christians at the stake, crucified them, stoned them, threw them to the lions, etc. What wrong were those Christians doing in order for the rulers to bear their swords against them? You seem to be ignoring that part of my post. All of this was happening while Paul was writing this epistle, did he not see it happening?

And yes, the passage implies that governments only do god's will by saying they are his servants. If a servant goes against his masters will then he cannot be considered a servant any longer but a traitor and should be replaced.

If god works through man's law to punish sinners, why are huge corporations and banks immune to the law? The fact that those who caused the financial collapse in 2008 are still in power and richer than ever goes to show that god does not work through man's law to punish the wrongdoer, otherwise those CEO's would be in jail right now. The rich are the ones who write the law, the rich are the ones who are immune to it, how is that just and fair?

The verse in its context tells you to stand against Immoral rulers. God takes his wrath out on many countries, and uses other governments to do so. Logically we can assume that Romans 13 doesn't apply to every single dynasty and empire for the entire duration of its reign. Remember the Bible is to be taken as a whole when viewed as a message from God. When it is these two parts are not Illogical follow the authorities, so long as they are doing as they are supposed to according to Gods law and not the wiles of the devil.

"The authorities that exist have been established by God", nowhere does it say "most" or "some", it implies all authorities. Romans 13 implies that no rulers are immoral otherwise god established them knowing they were immoral.

You are doing some incredible mental gymnastics to avoid the contradiction. I'm impressed.

ServantOfTheLamb
The modern English translations of the Bible are 100% copies of its originals

No... No they're not.
Why do you think there are so many different versions of the bible? Because each one changes and alters the wording.

reply to post by trollz


I suppose a more correct wording for that sentence would have been: The modern day English Bibles are translated for 100% accurate copies of the original. You cannot say that this statement is not true, unless you have reference to prove all the others are faulty.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

There is a way to eliminate blind faith from the category though.

Could you elaborate a bit on this point? What is this way and how does it eliminate blind faith?

Sure. The first question I asked before I decided yes God is absolutely real was does the universe need a creator, or can it all be random coincidence? Based on our current understanding of science it is more logical to assume an Architect behind the universe. The second question to ask is does life need a creator? The semiotic systems within our genetic make-up prove the existence of an intelligent being behind creation of life. After I found the most logical answer of those two questions to be yes, my next step was to ask which God is the Creator, and since there is a Creator it would make sense to assume the Creator created the universe with us in mind and should have left us an idea. This lead me to the older creation stories which use sound and resonance as the source of propagation of the universe, no matter how far back you go. Abrahamic religions-the Word(God spoke the earth into existence), Hindus-OM, and Egyptians-Sang the universe into existence. Now, the only other way for me to look for a God in these religions is to test what I know to be true of God. He can tell the future. So prophecy is where to look. All aspects of the universe mentioned should be scientifically correct. This type of faith is not blind faith, but rather faith built from a logical analysis of what I know of the universe. God has personally proven himself to me many times since my journey began, and now I walk by faith in him, and only wish for his will to be done.