Did Exodus Really Happen? Most likely NOT

reply to post by soficrow


Good question, but apparently it's not possible. It's possible it did happen earlier, sure, but not 50,000 years earlier. The exodus is dated vaguely in the biblical record here....

1 Kings 6:1 In the four hundred eightieth year after the Israelites came out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, which is the second month, he began to build the house of the LORD.

Now the exact dates of Solomon reign are, as far as I know, approximate. So while history knows it took place around 960BC they don't know exactly. So going back in time from that point 480 years doesn't give you a solid date of 1440BC. That's not to mention that 960BC might not be the fourth year of Solomon's reign but some other part of it. Maybe someone else here will know more about Solomon's dates.

Furthermore, this description of 480 years doesn't specify whether this date of when "the Israelites came out of the land of Egypt" refers to the start of the exodus or the end, after the 40 years of wandering in the wilderness. There's a lot of wiggle room with the date and if you shift it by a couple decades in either direction you end up with a different Pharaoh and different archeological records to pour through.

The short answer is 1440BC is approximate. It could be off by a hundred years or so because we don't know with reliability the exact date of Solomon's reign. Different historians suggest different timelines.

So while the 1440BC date isn't solid, it's not approximate by thousands of years, but approximate by 40-100.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Yes, the exodus happened exactly as described in the Holy Scriptures:

Is there any physical evidence for the Exodus described in the Bible? If you were to read the popular press, you would come to the conclusion that not only was there no evidence, but the evidence actually contradicted known archaeology. One such article recently appeared in Time Magazine. The usual complaints surround the lack of archaeological evidence of the Hebrews' wanderings through the desert. However, nomadic people seldom, if ever, leave any evidence of their presence. The Bible tells us that throughout the Exodus, the people never planted crops, built cities or did anything that would be expected to be found in thousands of square miles of desert. The Bible says that even their clothing did not wear out. The chances of finding any physical evidence of the Exodus itself seems extremely unlikely. However, the events surrounding the Exodus (both before and after) are testable and datable.

Unfortunately, extremely strong evidence for the validity of the Exodus has been published only in the scientific journals and never made it to the popular press. These studies examined one of the Egyptian plagues (before the Exodus) and demise of Jericho (after the Exodus). Drs. Hendrik J. Bruins and Johannes van der Plicht reported in the prestigious British journal, Nature,1 that the destruction of Jericho was dated to 1580 (" 13 years) B.C. (using 14C dating). This date is significant, since several archeologists have insisted that Jericho was destroyed by the Egyptians between 1550 and 1300 B.C. The recent study discredits the Egyptian theory, since the date is much too old.

What is even more interesting is that scientists, using 14C dating and tree rings, have found evidence of a volcanic eruption from the Aegean island of Thera, which has been dated to 1628 B.C.2 This would place the eruption at 45 years prior to the destruction of Jericho, at a time which coincidentally corresponds to the time of the plagues the Lord unleashed upon Egypt. Check out Exodus 10:

Then the Lord said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward the sky, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even a darkness which may be felt." So Moses stretched out his hand toward the sky, and there was thick darkness in all the land of Egypt for three days. (Exodus 10:21-22)

Even the researchers commented that the 45 years difference in events was "rather striking."3

and more:

Limits of Archaeology

Many critics who doubt the historicity of the Exodus share a problem: over-reliance on what archaeology can prove. Archaeology is, in fact, a limited and imperfect area of study in which the interpretation of findings, as archaeologists readily admit, is more of an art than a hard science.

Archaeologist Edwin Yamauchi points out the limits of this science when he explains:

(1) little of what was made or written in antiquity survives to this day;

(2) few of the ancient sites have been surveyed and a number have not even been found;

(3) probably fewer than 2 percent of the known sites have been meaningfully excavated;

(4) few of these have been more than scratched; and

(5) only a fraction of the fraction that have been excavated have been published and data made available to the scholarly world (1972: chapter 4).

Considering not only the limits but also the positive side of archaeology, it is remarkable how many Biblical accounts have been illuminated and confirmed by the relatively small number of sites excavated and finds uncovered to date. Even though, regrettably, some professionals go out of their way to present a distorted picture of what archaeology does reveal, it does provide some of the strongest evidence for the reliability of the Bible as credible and accurate history.

Evidence Destroyed

A major challenge in reconstructing an accurate view of history is that, through the ages, most negative or embarrassing evidence was never written down or was intentionally destroyed by later rulers. In fact, the Bible stands in marked contrast to most ancient literature in that it objectively records the facts about Biblical personalities, whether good or bad.

When new kings ascended the throne, they naturally wanted to be seen in the best light. So in many nations they covered up or destroyed monuments and records of previous monarchs. This pattern of expunging earlier historical evidence can be repeatedly seen in Egyptian monuments and historical records. For example, after the Hyksos rulers were expelled from Egypt, the Egyptians erased the records of that humiliating period so thoroughly that some of the names and the order of the Hyksos kings remain uncertain.

Some time later Pharaoh Thutmosis III destroyed virtually all records relating to Queen Hatshepsut, the previous ruler, whom he despised. Visitors to her famous temple can still see where Thutmosis’s workmen carefully chiseled away her image from the walls of the structure. A few decades afterwards, the ruling priests eliminated virtually all possible traces of the teachings of Pharaoh Akhenaten, who had introduced what they considered to be heretical Egyptian religious reforms.

and theres more to that article as well, and others,

and last but not least,

regarding the plagues of egypt, check out the Ipuwer Papyrus, and there is more evidence besides that as well,

Not to mention, the Scriptures themselves are completely reliable testimony.

Also, Jesus Christ Himself, the concurrent testimony of both Old and New Testament, as well as an abundance of Deuterocanonical, Apocryphal and Psuedoepigraphical testimony, as well as the testimony of the Apostles, Apoostolic Fathers, early Church Fathers, and many 1st, 2nd and 3rd century Saints and Martyrs,

The evidence is absolutely overwhelming,

to deny it is ignorance,

to embrace and accept it is Faith and Truth

reply to post by FlyersFan


Good post . It has been realized for some time by certain Israeli academics and even Rabbis that this story is a myth. Kudos to them for maintaining such integrity. A principle that the (ahem) "academics" of a certain other faith, also based (at least in part) on this cultural mythology/fiction, don't seem to be overly bothered with.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Nothing wrong with inquiry and investigation, but there's something rather um I can't think of the word, ferocious? seething contempt? in your debunking of the Bible which I don't quite understand.

Is that an upside down cross on your avatar's neck?

What's up, you haven't become a hater of some sort, a basher, I hope..

godlover25

Also, Jesus Christ Himself, the concurrent testimony of both Old and New Testament, as well as an abundance of Deuterocanonical, Apocryphal and Psuedoepigraphical testimony, as well as the testimony of the Apostles, Apoostolic Fathers, early Church Fathers, and many 1st, 2nd and 3rd century Saints and Martyrs,

The evidence is absolutely overwhelming,

to deny it is ignorance,

Yes, I have the distinct impression that the historical Jesus may be next up on FlyersFan's attack list/campaign.

It may have something to do with being raised Catholic..


P.S. I wonder if it's possible to date the number of lunar cycles between the day of the cross on April 3rd, 33AD, and the first "passover" (blood of the lamb above the door) culminating in Pharaoh's capitulation at the loss of his first born son to the angel of death..? Also, which Pharaoh was it supposed to have been?

Jesus certainly seemed to think that it was rather significant and highly prophetic..

reply to post by NewAgeMan


If you're faith is solid you should not only be unafraid of skeptical inquiry but openly embrace it. After all, if the truth is the end result you would be vindicated in the end no? The truth should always be embraced even if it conflicts with what we think we know.

reply to post by peter vlar


I didn't say anything to the contrary, pointing out that there is nothing wrong with an open and unbiased investigation or inquiry. It was the.. spirit of her (I think Flyer'sFan is a she if I'm not mistaken) approach that I was questioning. It is that which I find somewhat disturbing which is rather indistinguishable from that of the staunch atheist from what I can tell, and I've followed her writings here at ATS for some time and well it just doesn't seem to be in alignment with her character as I've known it in the past, then again people change, but it's painful to see a person of faith become a "hater", for me as a fellow Christian.

It doesn't scare me, but something tells me that she cannot be so certain about it given the amount of Jewish history and tradition, including the life and writings of Moses which is bound up in it.

Archaeological evidence as another poster has pointed out is dicey and what little is available so far has largely validated biblical history in general, like the discovery of Nineveh as but one example.

Um, wasn't there something discovered in the pyramids which did provide some evidence of the Exodus? I thought I'd seen that posted somewhere here at ATS at one time.

Where I'm coming from on this is the validity of the prophetic framework as it relates the historical person and Great Work of Jesus Christ, who appears to have been working in relation to it not only as a powerful prophetic framework but also as a historical one in terms of a heritage of deep symbolic meaning and significance ie: blood over the "door" at Passover, which was in part, his cue.

AbleEndangered
Egyptian Empire collapsed some how...

This was a great documentary.

I disagree on a couple elements of it. The Documentary lacked Aliens and suggested they crossed the Reed Sea instead of the Red Sea.

Exodus Decoded and the Search for the True Mount Sinai: Documentary (2006)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEjHkk6Xbls
www.youtube.com...

and this one is neat:

The Exodus Revealed
www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9DDA72yXAw
www.youtube.com...

 

Must Read the 5 books of Moses:
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy

No Aliens; No Exodus!!

edit on 7-11-2013 by AbleEndangered because: additions

I was looking the thread over to see if anyone had posted this.
It's perfect for this thread Able.

Sorry OP but you won't prove anything to yourself on this avenue.

And?

Archaeology is the art of finding a needle in a hay stack...so just because you may not have the evidence yet...doesn't mean it isn't there....Add in thousands of years of elements and decay...and that needle gets awfully hard to find...

You can have your doubts all you want. I just don't understand why this matters to you....Can you explain your interest in the Exodus please? Why would it bother you if it didn't happen? Why would it bother you if it did? Does it pose a threat to your beliefs?

A2D

Agree2Disagree
And?

Archaeology is the art of finding a needle in a hay stack...so just because you may not have the evidence yet...doesn't mean it isn't there....Add in thousands of years of elements and decay...and that needle gets awfully hard to find...

You can have your doubts all you want. I just don't understand why this matters to you....Can you explain your interest in the Exodus please? Why would it bother you if it didn't happen? Why would it bother you if it did? Does it pose a threat to your beliefs?

A2D

I can't speak for the OP, but I imagine if the founders of a religion
and key facts that made them famous are "de-hoaxed", then the
entire framework collapses all the way to the last dot in the Revelation.
The New Testament cannot stand on it's own.

I myself wouldn't want to put much energy into this.. if I wanted to
accomplish something like that. "Faith" is so potent. Heck there are
people who refuse to acknowledge one of their limbs..

Alien Hand Syndrome

You cannot change someone's mind with facts, without that person's permission.

KPB

NewAgeMan
there's something rather um I can't think of the word, ferocious? seething contempt? in your debunking of the Bible which I don't quite understand.

If I was investigating something you didn't like ... you'd be all for the inquiries, I'm sure.

Some words of advice from Rabbi David Wolpe -

... A tradition cannot make an historical claim and then refuse to have it evaluated by history. ... Truth should not frighten one whose faith is firm. ... Knowing the Exodus is not a literal historical accounting does not ultimately change our connection to each other or to God. Faith should not rest on splitting seas. ...

Is that an upside down cross on your avatar's neck?

Oh brother ... stop it ... it's just a goth character from Southpark. I like Southpark.
DIscuss the facts .. not the people posting. You are barking up the wrong tree.

NewAgeMan
Yes, I have the distinct impression that the historical Jesus may be next up on FlyersFan's attack list/campaign. It may have something to do with being raised Catholic..

Grow up. Seriously. If you don't like people investigating the truth, then go ahead and cling to your indoctrinations. But the fact that you think Catholics hate Jesus tells me how ignorant you are. Lemme' guess ... you LUV Jack Chick, right?

Discuss the facts and try to find TRUTH. Never be afraid of TRUTH, no matter where it takes you.

NewAgeMan
It was the.. spirit of her (I think Flyer'sFan is a she if I'm not mistaken) approach that I was questioning. It is that which I find somewhat disturbing which is rather indistinguishable from that of the staunch atheist

1 - You are to discuss the subject .. not the posters.
2 - You have NO IDEA what my 'spirit' is.
3 - A person doesn't have to believe in the myth and folklore of the Old Testament in order to believe in God. That's just silly.
4 - If something is proven not to be true, then its' ABSURD to cling to a belief in it.
5 - You shouldn't be afraid to investigate what is true and what isn't. That's not healthy.
6 - If you want to really know God, then look at the REAL things that He does and not the built up folklore and man made fables.
7 - WHo knows ... investigating these things may show them to have actually happened. But either way, it's best to know the truth.

Some words of advice from Rabbi David Wolpe -

... A tradition cannot make an historical claim and then refuse to have it evaluated by history. ... Truth should not frighten one whose faith is firm. ... Knowing the Exodus is not a literal historical accounting does not ultimately change our connection to each other or to God. Faith should not rest on splitting seas. ...

KellyPrettyBear
The New Testament cannot stand on it's own.

I disagree. The New Testament and the Old Testament are two different books. Written at two different times. They have two different messages. And the 'god' of the Old Testament is VERY different than the God that Jesus presents. I think the New Testament message is very capable of standing on it's own and if the Old Testament was proven to be totally myth and folklore (which a lot is), the 'love God and love your neighbor' message of Jesus can still live strong. IMHO

Agree2Disagree
Archaeology is the art of finding a needle in a hay stack...so just because you may not have the evidence yet...doesn't mean it isn't there....Add in thousands of years of elements and decay...and that needle gets awfully hard to find...

Evidence of two million people living in the desert for 40 years does't just decay and it's more than 'a needle in the haystack'. The desert preserves things. There were no bones of the dead ... no pottery ... no bones of animals that were kept or eaten .... nothing. And there was no evidence in Egypt. If two million people got up and left, it would have been recorded and there would have been a HUGE financial hit. But there is nothing. And if the Egyptian army was lost at sea, it would have been recorded. And Egypt would have suffered militarily but instead the exact opposite happened. All evidence suggests the story didn't happen.

Can you explain your interest in the Exodus please? Why would it bother you if it didn't happen? Why would it bother you if it did?

My interest is IRRELEVANT to the discussion. But I'll say it anyways .... TRUTH. TRUTH is my interest. Pure and simple truth .. no matter where it goes ...

Does it pose a threat to your beliefs?

WHY would it? That would be silly. My belief in God and Christ isn't based on folklore.

The Holy Bible Is a book of knowledge and wisdom... The old testament and all it's wars... Showing how all that followed this path fell from Grace... All sinned and had to ask for forgiveness... The New Testament... A clear path for Salvation... Wisdom comes after knowledge... Understand the book and it's vision...

It's a guide book for sinners... A righteous man knows this and no longer needs a guide for he becomes the guide...

...The LAW... By The Water Of Jesus Christ... The Word WATER... What Abba Teaches Earns Righteousness...

NewAgeMan
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

Nothing wrong with inquiry and investigation, but there's something rather um I can't think of the word, ferocious? seething contempt? in your debunking of the Bible which I don't quite understand.

Is that an upside down cross on your avatar's neck?

What's up, you haven't become a hater of some sort, a basher, I hope..

Oh yes this is a classic standard bashing thread. Good contradictory evidence to the op is passed right over, a great deal of reliability on the fact that most that read here cant tell one way or another, anti bible buzzards circling over head, so called school proof and hate scholarship passed off like it is totally unbiased and bold anti myth effort, toss in some anti Semitism and anti christian sentiments and wala you have a bashing thread.

godlover25
However, nomadic people seldom, if ever, leave any evidence of their presence.

They (allegedly) weren't nomadic. They were two million people living in the general same area of the desert for 40 years. (supposedly). They (allegedly) got up and moved around a lot, but it's still two million people walking around in the same general area for 40 years. THey'd leave evidence.

the people never planted crops, built cities or did anything that would be expected to be found in thousands of square miles of desert. The Bible says that even their clothing did not wear out.

And you can't see that is ridiculous folklore?

the destruction of Jericho

See previous information on Jericho. The date is disputed. The 'walls' dating is disputed because of a previous settlement there. And even if it was destroyed by Hebrews, that doesn't mean it was two million of them coming out of Egypt. Most Jewish scholars now say that the Hebrews lived in that area all along.

a volcanic eruption from the Aegean island of Thera,

little of what was made or written in antiquity survives to this day;

- The Egyptians kept very good records .. much of it in stone.
- HISTORY shows that the Egyptian Army was in tact and strong during the time period (and after the time period) that they supposedly got wiped out in the Red Sea. Obviously it didn't happen.

(2) few of the ancient sites have been surveyed and a number have not even been found;

The places mentioned in Exodus didn't even exist until hundreds of years later. That's established fact.

Also, Jesus Christ Himself, the concurrent testimony of both Old and New Testament, as well as an abundance of Deuterocanonical, Apocryphal and Psuedoepigraphical testimony, as well as the testimony of the Apostles, Apoostolic Fathers, early Church Fathers, and many 1st, 2nd and 3rd century Saints and Martyrs,

They were repeating stories that they heard ... living their culture ... they were not witnesses to the events. That would be the same as me telling the story of how Jesus lived. That was 2000 years ago and I have no way to prove it happened. I'd just be repeating stories.

The evidence is absolutely overwhelming, to deny it is ignorance,

The evidence that it happened is severely lacking.
To deny that the evidence is severely lacking is ignorance.
Blindly hugging indoctrination instead of looking for truth .... YIKES!


AN EXODUS may have happened. But it wasn't what the scripture says.
Dig through the folklore and myth that got built up around it ... find the truth.
The more you find the truth, the better you can know GOD for REAL.

Logarock
Good contradictory evidence to the op is passed right over,

Nope. Dead wrong.

anti bible buzzards circling over head,

Finding truth isn't 'anti-bible' .. it's just finding truth.
You shouldn't be afraid of the truth.

so called school proof and hate scholarship passed off like it is totally unbiased and bold anti myth effort,

Truth is truth, not hate.

toss in some anti Semitism and anti christian sentiments and wala you have a bashing thread.

Seems like YOU are the one doing the bashing here .... Anti-truth sentiments. Lovely.

edit on 11/8/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

ishum
i found this intersting.
has simular information.
NOVA The Bible's Buried Secrets

basically it sounds like a people came together to make a nation but they had no name, no history.
so no standing with other nations so they made something up givng themselves a name and a history.
now they have a history that could point to and say "see how great we are?".

my basic take of it.

vid is nearly 2 hours.

Whatever side you may be on here, learn to identify politically motivated anti Semitic historical interpretations. Not to mention the fact that you yourself should do some research. Had you, you wouldn't even post this bull.