Did Exodus Really Happen? Most likely NOT

Danbones
reply to post by tinfoilman

 

he would have made one up.

no offence but things like that we can't know, and so probably don't advance the arguement much.

Really it only takes ONE hole in the fabric to really badly effect the literal interpretation of the bible dogma, and then once thats gone, whats left of any interpretation of it?

ps
like what Brian G just observed above

edit on 6-11-2013 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

I don't take a literal reading of it. Much of the OT especially is allegorical and metaphorical. But the argument is from assuming if Moses really was in Egypt or not we just try to follow it as logically as possible. Like I don't know if Moses and the Israelite really was in Egypt or not, but ASSUMING they were, Moses would have had the ability to learn their language and there's no logical reason to assume he would have spoken Egyptian only.

Where the OP is starting from the point that there were no Israelite slaves in Egypt so Moses must have spoke Egyptian only and since the Bible wasn't written in Egyptian it's all false and there were never any Israelite in Egypt.

But that's a circular assumption, there were no Israelite there because there were no Israelite there. However, the Bible tells us they were there so the assumption is, IF they were there could Moses have learned their language. Yes.

However, if they weren't there Moses couldn't have learned Egyptian either because he wouldn't have existed.

The Name GIZA explains by it's name alone why a few left the land of Egypt... The New Kingdom Began There After The Flood... As the Tomb Of Adam was erected there... The Name GIZA tells the Story Of MOSES... GIZA a name of truth for all to see and hear... God Is Zealous Again... To be seen and known again... The Name MOSES... Move Over Satan Exiting Slavery... And a few sought what Egypt had forgotten... The MAN of it all... Abbas Living Light... Meet Abba Now... Again he walked with God... As he left his Mark ... The CROSS... Christ Resurrects Only Spiritual Souls over that wall of tears... 16 Dec 2013 A Perfect Cross In Heaven... Completed By ISON... I Said Oneness Now... For those of ISRAEL... It's a people not dirt or sand... Made Of Clay... Christ Loves All You... The Name JESUS... Jerusalem Exiting Slavery Under Salvation... His Life And Blood He Gave You to fill that clay with his love... The CROSS marked it's spot for ALL... Abbas Living Light... Love Is Gods Highest Truth... This Truth He Gave To All Us that live in his Light... Revealing Each And Everyone One Of US... Understanding Spirits... United Spirits That Follow The Voice And It's Word... His Word Of Living A Peaceful Life With Him... As he walks this earth with us and among us just as written... Follow his voice and see the MAN himself... He left the tomb of death long ago... As always he stands with the truth... As the example and image of a father and his kind... Before Angels Ever Existed... Spirits were before Angels... Jesus Christ Began In The Spiritual World before material or any other living thing existed... His Call Created The Electrical Universe you know dwell... The Home Of Life... Love Is Fathers Example... To give life to all that truly seek it... The PLAN... People Living Always Now... Everlasting Life In The Light Of Jesus Christ...

tinfoilman
While the Egyptians were great "record" keepers you have to know what kind of record they kept. Just like every other culture at the time it was mostly religious junk about their gods and what wars they fought and their history but it was told through the view of their religion just like every other culture at the time.

Um ... no. They were the leaders of the world at that time.
They recorded A LOT more than just religious stories.

Ancient Egypt On Line

It is no exaggeration to say that we owe most of our knowledge of ancient Egypt to the work of her scribes. The ancient Egyptians covered their temples and tombs with hieroglyphs, but they also employed scribes to record everything from the stocks held in the stores for workers, the proceedings in court, magic spells, wills and other legal contracts, medical procedures, tax records and genealogies. Scribes were central to the functioning of centralised administration, the army and the priesthood and in truth very little happened in ancient Egypt which did not involve a scribe in some manner.

Celt1
The New Kingdom Began There After The Flood...

Noahs Ark didn't happen. It's scientifically impossible.

As the Tomb Of Adam was erected there...

Adam and Eve didn't happen. It is a creation myth borrowed from the Summerians and changed.

The Name GIZA tells the Story Of MOSES...

Large chunks of the Moses story are in doubt and probably didn't happen ... as this thread shows.

That one is gnostic. Out of Egypt means out of the land of ego challenges, for into Egypt is related to tests of the ego. And the red sea, well, that is pretty much an obvious metaphor for your natural instincts/body/beast, and programming, to react, to be violent or controlling, or judgmental, instead of compassion, understanding and standing still in circumstances. So how to do this.

Moses said, to have faith. That means God/Goodness/Spirit/Higher Self, basically Creator/Source and your own Spirit knows, and watches over, and understands us, so we have faith that the bad guys only have a surface thing going in a simulation but the real Force is Love and Goodness and watches over, that bad things can happen but only if our souls need to learn and there is a silver lining to the storm cloud, that we don't fear death for we're immortal so we don't fear, but trust, for even going home is winning the golden ticket out of dodge, so now. Have faith.

Then Moses said, Man of Peace (opposite of the red sea). Be still and know God/Goodness.

ie. MEDITATE. (genesis 32 30, jacob met God in the city of his pineal). Meditate, be still and seek Source within, for all those who desire Peace and Mastery of their impulses.

The eastern always buried in gnostic passages.

Now the difference between this as inner meaning and what power seeking controllers did, when they forced a crude outer meaning is that God/Goodness who helps us in our processes of overcoming our primitive lower mind and nature and gaining higher mind, and Family that is there every step of the way, suddenly becomes the opposite of Love but Harsh and Smiting and killer of armies of young men just following orders.

Instead of the pursuing passions and impulses of the body suit, programming in childhood, that pursue us while we strive to overcome, being drowned out in meditation, the harsh fundamental makes God a murderer of the pharoah's army.

Whereas in reality, Goodness and Love are ever ready for each of those young men in the army to turn wtihin and begin their journey to self mastery as well.

When the dark side enslaves people by cutting them off from the two witnesses, Love and Wisdom, they came in with, their own soul memories under the veil, inner voice and discernments, to accept Saturn and Harsh/Smiting/Murdering/Jealous Demiurge instead of Goodness/Love/Compassion, what happens is the person loses touch with home and they Lay Seige To Is Ra El, and prevent spirit growth but keep a recycling going on, slaves.

I don't find much to believe in regards to the Old Testament. I think it's mostly made up nonsense. The New Testament, however, I believe to be at least historically accurate. Either way, I don't need the Bible to be real in any way, shape, or form, as it has nothing to do with my relationship with God.

FlyersFan

tinfoilman
While the Egyptians were great "record" keepers you have to know what kind of record they kept. Just like every other culture at the time it was mostly religious junk about their gods and what wars they fought and their history but it was told through the view of their religion just like every other culture at the time.

Um ... no. They were the leaders of the world at that time.
They recorded A LOT more than just religious stories.

Ancient Egypt On Line

It is no exaggeration to say that we owe most of our knowledge of ancient Egypt to the work of her scribes. The ancient Egyptians covered their temples and tombs with hieroglyphs, but they also employed scribes to record everything from the stocks held in the stores for workers, the proceedings in court, magic spells, wills and other legal contracts, medical procedures, tax records and genealogies. Scribes were central to the functioning of centralised administration, the army and the priesthood and in truth very little happened in ancient Egypt which did not involve a scribe in some manner.

I'm sorry did you say they hired scribes to record magic spells? I'm sorry I'm not aware that magic was real? Did their magic spells work?

Like I said, there record keeping for the TIME was alright, but you're comparing to the type of records we keep today and it's out context. Their record keeping was crap by today's standard.

But hey the burden here is on you. You're arguing against yourself here. If your claim is that they kept such great records of their slaves and which countries they were from and so forth, well let's see em and go over em together and see what we can find?

But obviously there's this myth going around that they, and other cultures as well, had better record keeping habits than they really had. Cause every time you ask someone for whatever document they imply they have, they don't actually have it.

Like oh we know they kept records of their slaves but we must have lost most of them? Well I understand we probably did lose a lot of that over time, but when you compare it to their religious texts and it's like well how come we have so much more of this?

Most likely because they wrote far more of that and the idea they were super duper record keepers is just a widely quoted myth.

reply to post by Celt1


So your proof is common spellings of select proper nouns as written in Latin script by English speakers used to create (often nonsensical) acronyms by you? So these hidden messages are specifically directed toward English speakers in modern times? What about everyone else?

Can you find hidden meanings in a jumble of scrabble tiles? Here's some letters that come to mind: YAFOS. I know you're skeptical, but I found them by creating a matrix from my keyboard and then rolling a four-sided die until I came up with what I wanted. Obviously God speaks through D&D dice as well which makes sense because the two letters in that abbreviation are D & D which equates to Divine Decryption. I'm done. (6666 characters left!)

tinfoilman
I'm sorry did you say they hired scribes to record magic spells? I'm sorry I'm not aware that magic was real? Did their magic spells work?

Don't be snarky. And you are cherry picking. Again -

Ancient Egypt On Line

It is no exaggeration to say that we owe most of our knowledge of ancient Egypt to the work of her scribes. The ancient Egyptians covered their temples and tombs with hieroglyphs, but they also employed scribes to record everything from the stocks held in the stores for workers, the proceedings in court, magic spells, wills and other legal contracts, medical procedures, tax records and genealogies. Scribes were central to the functioning of centralised administration, the army and the priesthood and in truth very little happened in ancient Egypt which did not involve a scribe in some manner.

- Stocks held in stores for workers (inventory)
- Court proceedings.
- Their religious records (magic)
- Wills and other legal contracts.
- Medical prodedures
- Tax records
- Geneologies

And that's just one source of information. Considering that they basically controlled a large chunk of the world, they would have had to record what happened in TRADE and what happened with the MILITARY and what happened with FINANCIAL TRANSACTIONS and HISTORICAL EVENTS and they would have had CORRESPONDENCE between countries which means they'd have to have updates on what was happening in those countries .... and on and on ... these weren't cavemen ... these were people with writing and record keeping and higher math and astronomy and massive building projects that took engineering .... etc etc .

They weren't cave men.

If your claim is that they kept such great records of their slaves and which countries they were from and so forth, well let's see em and go over em together and see what we can find?

I already told you ... I"m not going to spend HOURS looking through museum and university catalogs to see if they have any copies of egyptian records online. It might not even be there. I am taking the findings of archeologists and historians. They are the experts. They have done the research. They have the findings. If you wish to ignore the MANY archeologists and historians and university professors who have said the Egyptians were world leaders and had good record keeping ... then go right ahead.


To be on topic - The Egyptian record keeping, which included finances and events that effected Egypt, had NOTHING about a major loss of the Egyptian Army in the Red Sea and had NOTHING about 2 million Hebrews leaving Egypt and had NOTHING about a massive Hebrew slave rebellion. And supposedly, according to the Hebrew account, the Hebrew slaves left with massive gold wealth ... they say it was given to them by the Egyptians but one can't help but speculate as to if it was actually stolen and that's why Pharoah sent his army after the Hebrews (if it even happened at all).

reply to post by usernameconspiracy

At this point, that's pretty much where I am.
I used to take it literally. But after researching the facts .... nope!

reply to post by FlyersFan


OK, so we have the Apiru people, living to the East of the Nile Delta (the same place that Goshen was supposed to be located). They were a warrior people who assisted in the defense of Egypt against attack from the East. Several of the patriarchs of the Hebrew tribes were also noted as warriors (in their own record).

Then there are the ancient remains of bones & chariot wheels in the middle of the Gulf of Aquaba.

And there is some archaeological evidence to say that the walls of Jericho collapsed in an unusual way. We also have many Canannite towns falling to 'invaders' at about the same time as the walls collapsed.

All these 'before, during & after' events support the Hebrew account and counter your suppositions.

Yet you claim that it didn't happen and your proof is that you don't have any evidence.

You also made reference to the documentary hypothesis, which has no actual proof, and was popular during last century, but has been generally regarded as debunked during this century.

Your suppositions simply have no proof and therefore it is only logical to reject them.

Now the outer meanings basically taking fairy tales for real, and they did use common knowledge or names, some historical characters, to flesh out their stories, where the gem was in the inner meaning.

But, the reason to hide knowledge, which often is simple, as to the way to awaken and progress, is because they want to keep people dumbed down.

Is Ra El. is not a race, or a religion. It is the code for ascension. Ascend SION. For anyone, beggar, king, black, white, native, anyone......anywhere.....any age.....any sex.....any race....any initial religion....or lack of religion....that starts to pay attention to the world being wrong, or inner Voice and experiences, and daily miracles, who GOES WITHIN, meditates, prays, asks for the illusions and programming to be removed (matthew 13, any who ask for God to heal their hearing and sight, it will be done). Those who seek within, not without. The Kingdom of Heaven lies within, the Body is the Temple of Soloman, the temple that was built without the sound of any tool being used. Soloman's Temple is your body! The House of the Divine.

Those who give their money to outer church's and things while leaving their Brother and Sister, and God within them, homeless, are committing true idolatry, but then remember God is Love and we're in schools so its not like I'm saying this in a judgmental way, more just pointing out that we've been lied to.

We're not to judge but strive to understand each other, and you can't reach grade 4 unless you have gone through 1, 2, 3, so don't judge others but compassionate them and Love them.

Hence the above was not said to go , woe unto thee, that is all BS stuff, and brings us away from Love.

We're to SHINE, heal, help and equalize, and encouage each other, while striving to protect family from truly dangerous people.

**********************


Now gentiles are those who go without, and don't see past the literal fairy tale, even if it is obvious.

The controllers here Lay Seige to Is Ra El, because this means the awakening.

Isis/Mother, inner subconscious, right hemisphere, and pineal, need to unite with Father/Ra, the conscious, left hemisphere, pituatary, and both unite and the Insight/Third Eye, begins to flower open, one petal at a time, one drop of tea filling the teacup slowly and perfectly, the lily of valley, the lotus (which also occurs, with chakra meditations and every time you see 7 in the bible, well....7 Churches in the revelations are the 7 Chakras...for example, there are many more 7's....!!!) Those are lessons or themes we need to learn, energies that must be healed and balanced.

Even Chakra's can be metaphors, or literal, they work either way.

When one AWAKENS and gains Higher Mind and overcomes the false ego, and Parts the Red Sea, of impulses, THEY BECOME THE SON OF GOD, EL.

Is Ra El.

And the elites spend all of their time trying to lay seige Is Ra El, to prevent losing power and stop the ascension/progression of humanity and their Spirit's gaining the next grade.

Even to the point of ritual sacrifice, like in that passage where the sensitive man and woman, not sensitive heart/compassion, but a sensitive foot that can't touch the floor, ie royalty, will cannabilize their own family, and other's of course, to lay seige to Is Ra El. (well thats the inner metaphor there).

A light code within that may be: To overcome, those within royalty that are laying seige to Is Ra El, those awakened and positive Love within the royal or elite factions, need to put aside their loyalty to their own family and family riches, and walk away like Buddha and join with the people, to work diligently for disclosure and equality and freedom and truth and awakening.

reply to post by FlyersFan

I am taking the findings of archeologists and historians.

The findings of archeologists and historians was that they didn't find any Egyptian record of the Israelite being slaves in Egypt, but the slave records are lacking and very incomplete and they don't have much on slavery in Egypt at all. For example they're still recently debating if the pyramid builders were even slaves or not let alone getting documentation on who were slaves and who weren't.

Note: While the Bible claims the Israelite were slaves, if doesn't claim they were slaves used to build the pyramids or even slaves during the time the pyramids were built. This is a modern myth actually.

Al I'm saying is you're taking this great records thing out of context. Yes they did have great records, but in context, you can't just compare that to records today. They're great records for determining certain things and not others. Objectively they weren't the greatest historians.

If you want to know what wars they fought, what God's they worshiped, or maybe a list of their magic spells. Yes great records. But for other things their records weren't so hot, like their records on slavery.

So, in some way they were great scribes but when you try to use it to prove a point out of context, well no they didn't really have that great of records when it comes to the topics you're discussing unfortunately.

tinfoilman
reply to post by trumpet

 

It does seem odd that there would be no record of it at all. This is true. However, like I said, there is a record of it. In the Bible.

If you choose to use the Bible as a reference resource about factual, historical, happenings, I won't sway you, but I won't put much credence in it. J.R.R. Tolkien wrote a record of dragons, hobbits, elfs and orcs-which was his version of the bible, but that didn't make it factual. If you want to disprove the Egyptian writings, go find those sources and disprove them. In our recent history we kept slaves and records of those slaves being sold and can find those still in archives, but let's check back in a few thousand years and see where those records have gone and marvel at the stories that replace them, perhaps Alex Haley's saga Roots will be the record. Like I mentioned, perhaps Exodus is a fantastical story because it was important to the followers, but to the Egyptians was not noteworthy. Exaggeration is a well used tool in writing, especially in religious writing.

I don't want to dissuade you from belief in what works for you, but you posted later in contradiction to the above quoted statement.

tinfoilman
reply to post by Danbones

 

I don't take a literal reading of it. Much of the OT especially is allegorical and metaphorical.

So how do you choose to treat it? As in my earlier post: Perhaps Exodus is more about faith than truth, and there is nothing wrong with that, but don't portray faith as truth.

I'm still inclined to go with the OP, evidence is pointing towards the Exodus as not occurring.

chr0naut
OK, so we have the Apiru people, ....

And yet most of the places mentioned in Exodus didn't even exist until hundreds of years after Exodus was supposed to have taken place.

Then there are the ancient remains of bones & chariot wheels in the middle of the Gulf of Aquaba.

Like I said .. a chariot wheel and a few bones do NOT make up an entire Egyptian Army.
BTW .. 2 million people living in the desert for 40 years ... where are the relics from them?
No where.

And there is some archaeological evidence to say that the walls of Jericho collapsed in an unusual way.

That's from Joshua, not Exodus. IF there was a battle, it is not proof that two million people left Egypt. A battle easily could have happened there ... or not.

Biblical Archeology - in favor of Joshuas Story
Archeology Demolishes Exodus and Joshua Stories
The Walls of Jericho

There is valid discussion both ways on Jericho.

Your suppositions simply have no proof and therefore it is only logical to reject them.

The archeologists and historians and scholars have given plenty of proof.
If you wish to reject that proof and cling to that which can't be proven ... go right ahead.

Something else I'm noticing in this thread (and I'm not necessarily trying to argue for the exodus one way or another) is that you guys are focusing on the general content of Egyptian records and the vague idea that they were very detailed, but ignoring the fact that it is known how the Egyptians loved to completely ignore their failures and even redact them. Furthermore, Egyptian history is such a shambles. There are so many missing documents and holes in time that they can't account for. There are times when Egypt is the height of the world militarily and there are times when there are no conquests at all for several years and no one really knows why. Time of peace? Time of trouble for the Egyptians? No one knows. Egyptian history is so incomplete that archeologists aren't even sure their list of Pharaohs is accurate.

So I think it's a little disingenuous to call out the Exodus as not occurring because the Egyptian records don't mention it when we still know so little about ancient Egypt considering how long it reigned on the earth.

As for the lack of evidence for two million nomads wandering the desert for forty years... there is so much in archeology that simply hasn't been found yet. The lack of evidence here just isn't the same thing as no evidence. Archeologists used to think Jericho didn't even exist. Heck, they used to consider Pilate a complete fabrication in the much more recent New Testament age until they found something that proved he did exist after all.

This is not to mention how difficult it is to dig in Arabia, where Midian was and where the Hebrews would have fled to in the case of an exodus.

As an aside, some of the excerpts in the OP confuse me. Claiming the Hebrews did not build the pyramids as evidence against the exodus makes no sense. No one ever said they did, certainly not the bible. The real issue would be those places the bible does mention they built, but I don't know of any archeology information regarding those treasure cities.

trumpet

tinfoilman
reply to post by trumpet

 

It does seem odd that there would be no record of it at all. This is true. However, like I said, there is a record of it. In the Bible.

If you choose to use the Bible as a reference resource about factual, historical, happenings, I won't sway you, but I won't put much credence in it. J.R.R. Tolkien wrote a record of dragons, hobbits, elfs and orcs-which was his version of the bible, but that didn't make it factual. If you want to disprove the Egyptian writings, go find those sources and disprove them. In our recent history we kept slaves and records of those slaves being sold and can find those still in archives, but let's check back in a few thousand years and see where those records have gone and marvel at the stories that replace them, perhaps Alex Haley's saga Roots will be the record. Like I mentioned, perhaps Exodus is a fantastical story because it was important to the followers, but to the Egyptians was not noteworthy. Exaggeration is a well used tool in writing, especially in religious writing.

I don't want to dissuade you from belief in what works for you, but you posted later in contradiction to the above quoted statement.

tinfoilman
reply to post by Danbones

 

I don't take a literal reading of it. Much of the OT especially is allegorical and metaphorical.

So how do you choose to treat it? As in my earlier post: Perhaps Exodus is more about faith than truth, and there is nothing wrong with that, but don't portray faith as truth.

I'm still inclined to go with the OP, evidence is pointing towards the Exodus as not occurring.

You have to wonder about the authenticity of any historical document, Bible or not. If you find an Egyptian text that says one thing and the Bible says another, if you just say well the Bible is wrong because you're mad at the Bible this isn't true historical research. What if the Egyptian text is wrong? You should try to find even more information that verifies one or the other. If you can't, or you find information that verifies both and both can't be then you're just left not knowing.

You can't take any historical document at face value.

Like I said, most of the Egyptian writings we have are religious in nature. What if you find something in it that contradicts the Bible? Indeed we do all the time? The Bible says Horus isn't real, The Egyptian texts say Horus is real? So we do we disregard everything from both cultures? Or do we say, well I know the Bible is wrong, just because I don't like it, so the Egyptian must be right? Really they're right, so shouldn't you be worshiping Horus then?

Like I said, the objective historian thing didn't exist back then. Or at least it was rare. Virtually everything written was written through the viewpoint of that culture's religion including the Egyptian. If you're gonna discount everything religious then you're never gonna learn anything about ancient history because you don't have much left to read.

Even if it's not true you still have to consider it to try and find out what happened because that's how people wrote back then.

Also you have to give special consideration to how the Bible was written. It's not a single book by a single author. It's many books written by many different people over time that didn't know each other. It's not like a modern day science fiction book. So to say the Bible can't back itself up at all isn't really correct. It wasn't put together as a single book until much later.

For example look at Abe Lincoln. I don't know if we was real or not or really existed. But I can read all the books written by different people about Abe Lincoln and probably figure it out. What I can't do is collect all the books about Abe Lincoln and compile them into a single book and then turn around and say see, this is the only book that talks about Abe Lincoln! There's no other books to back it up! It can't self verify itself! Therefore Abe never existed!

That would be a logical fallacy and the Bible is no different. It may not all be correct but just because we put those books in a collection doesn't mean there's no truth to them either.

reply to post by tinfoilman


The OP cited numerous resources that point to no Exodus. You continue to cite the Bible as the only resource to counter. What other sources do you have to support your point? Without researching, you assert that everything of importance written by the Egyptians is religious in it's content. OP posted a number of sources in a later post that do not support the assertion of Egyptians only writing from a religious context. The topic is Did Exodus Really Happen? Most Likely Not. If you want to believe that Exodus happened just like it says in the Bible, that's fine, but to counter evidence that suggests differently with "the Bible says so," is not proving the point. What are you're other historical resources? Look, our own mythos in America are cluttered with better stories than actual truths; Christopher Columbus was conveniently discovering America in the late 15th century because the Spanish were the dominant power in this part of the world at the time. The English were colonizing. So were the French and the Dutch, not to mention that there were well established native Americans with elaborate and well organized societies that had been flourishing for hundreds of years, but the historical roll of time gave us Columbus. The Exodus is a label for an event that may or may not have occurred. To the degree that is described in the Bible, did not, or there would be more supporting historical evidence. Let's stay on topic. I too like to wander, but not for 40 years.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Well if it isn't Flyers Fan the constant atheist poster on ATS making claims based on zero real evidence.

Good luck with your mission to discredit proven historical facts.

Oh by the way, did you know they found metal chariot wheels, human bones, and even horse remains, in the bottom of the Red Sea the crossing took place, some as deep as 200 feet, yes most of it covered by lots of overgrowth of coral after thousands of years, but still visible.
Oh I know, it's a Christian hoax and what you say is always a proven scientific fact isn't it....

Great thread Flyers.
I'm hanging out on this thread until we get to the New Testament.
What did the Egyptian Historians Roman Historians or Israelites of 33 A.D.
have to say about Jesus ?
I should add I'm not being a smart ass (this time)
I have never heard of any record of Jesus Christ of Nazareth
when he was alive as a human. As well read as you are I'm truly
interested as to whether you know any different.
I'll take anything from 10BC - 45AD.