What is so scary about thinking, or discovering, your Religion is false?

reply to post by vethumanbeing


My soapbox IDEA platform is as tall as the universe is vast.

His is that of an atheist fox-hole, sycophantic, naysayer with a strong dose of rebellious teenage angst.

Me I'm a rebel with an actual cause and I know what I fight and who is my ally.

NewAgeMan
reply to post by vethumanbeing

NewAgeMan
My soapbox IDEA platform is as tall as the universe is vast.
His is that of an atheist fox-hole, sycophantic, naysayer with a strong dose of rebellious teenage angst. Me I'm a rebel with an actual cause and I know what I fight and who is my ally.

Yes and is admirable. You might have a small problem, whereas I understand your perspective, your verve and your passion TOTALLY (without reservation); others may not hold to the same ideology and may look at it as intrusive. However AfterInfinity walked through your church doors (metaphorically) and sat listening to your sermon. So, IT decided to have some YELP, HOWL alla POP poet 'Ginsberg, or in the style of 'hunter s thompson, tom wolfe' spew of words to share in front of this denomination (that being all of the listening/reading audience) point being AfterInfinity disagrees and has its point, and its an eloquent one. Anyone need a debate coach (I am not available).

reply to post by NewAgeMan

His is that of an atheist fox-hole, sycophantic, naysayer with a strong dose of rebellious teenage angst.

Haha. You haven't been paying as much attention as I thought.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by NewAgeMan

NewAgeMan
His is that of an atheist fox-hole, sycophantic, naysayer with a strong dose of rebellious teenage angst.

Did AfterInfinity break into your locked front doors on Saturday night, or walk in invited to an 'OPEN TO ALL' Sunday 11AM sermon? NAM, you are going to get the naysayers (as you are a magnet, because you are true to your beliefs), its all in your degree of theological/MR WIZARD wisdom knowledge to finesse; to aswage the outrage humans feel when they observe the ABANDONMENT BY THEIR CREATOR/reason with them into at least a teeder todder moment on the recess field (get God to show up at least to defend your position) and put sandbags under your seat.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

His is that of an atheist fox-hole, sycophantic, naysayer with a strong dose of rebellious teenage angst.

Haha. You haven't been paying as much attention as I thought.

ok rebellious young adult angst..

From what i can tell the atheist offers nothing to replace the wisdom of ages and the rock of ages as a touchstone.

Have you ever had a mid-like crisis a "dark night of the soul"? Have you put your beliefs or lack thereof to the test and have you been put to the test?

I speak from the authority of the one who was sent and who send me in turn, he is my light and my guide, and it's tried true and definitely tested.

On what authority do you speak, and if it's just your own personal experience, what access does the subjective isolate consciousness have to the objective reality or the truth of life?

But i like you becaues you remind me of me when i entered onto the spiritual journey at about the age of 28 (i'm now going on 47).

I''m a double PK you must remember, so i am doubly rebellious, the true "Prodigal Son", and i've searched high and low, from complexity theory to Buddist and Taoist interpretations of modern quantum physics, anywhere and everywhere BUT anything "Churchy" or what i've come to refer to as "Churchianity".

But after all my searching and seeking and rebelling i took another look with an open mind and made another investigation free from contempt, prior to investigation.

AI, you're not a tough study, i see more than you realize.

i'd say you are just shy of 30, single, for now, reasonably good-looking, might have been at one time bi-curious, professionally employed or maybe self employed likely in a technical capacity. You're an artist, and a musician, but not serious you are 420 friendly, and your parents are and were a little rigid, conservative, upper-middle class and perhaps pillars of their community. Your hair is not short, light brown, you are clean shaven. You still wear rock concert t-shirts from time to time. You have lots of friends and although you have well developed extroverted skills are fundamentally introverted, even a bit of a loner, and you're rather sad and a little angry.

how'd i do?

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Which is fine except this thread isn't called: "What does atheism offer that god doesn't?"
It is not called: "This is what god offers."
It is not called: "This is the proof of god's splendor."
It is not called: "Jesus loves you anyways."
It is not called: "Adult angst...do you suffer from it?"
It is not called: "I have found the path to salvation and HERE it is!"
Please stay on topic.

-Amitaba-

reply to post by Eryiedes


It's a two way street and a double edged sword, surely you can see that.

I am attempting to show that the person of "faith" can be entirely based in reason and logic, and you cannot ask a person to divorce themselves of that, whereas on your side of the coin you offer nothing and have nothing to defend, so it's the easier, softer, and perhaps the more fearful way..

The ideas and the framework that i've arrived at has required immense courage, and it's been fraught with peril unto the point of liberation, it's the hero's journey the path of Christ-realization. "If you are to be my disciple you too must pick up your cross and follow me." (and we all have a cross to bear or something that we are working out, right?).

What do you cling to and what if you were to give it up in the face of a rational basis for faith and in particular the Christian faith if shown to be true? Could you do it? Even if it meant that it would assign to you a value of incalculable measure as a true child of God the very same one who created you in the first place.. would you dare? Could you?

Since you offer nothing and defend nothing and can only attack what you do not know or understand, who is "scared" and who, courageous?

"The supreme challenge posed by Christianity is how to receive a gift of incalculable value for which there is nothing you can do to earn or deserve."
~ C.S. Lewis, converted atheist, who saw the genius.

And if you had even the first clue as to how funny and hilarious that is, would you have the courage to laugh for all the right reasons..?


Best Regards,

NAM

NewAgeMan
It's a two way street and a double edged sword, surely you can see that.

This makes no sence at all.

I am attempting to show that the person of "faith" can be entirely based in reason and logic, and you cannot ask a person to divorce themselves of that, whereas on your side of the coin you offer nothing and have nothing to defend, so it's the easier, softer, and perhaps the more fearful way.

Since this thread has established conlusively that it is a mental trauma issue, what you are asking that I encourage abused people to continue on a path that erodes all reason and logic. Lemme sum that up in three words:

"Knock yourself out."

The ideas and the framework that i've arrived at has required immense courage, and it's been fraught with peril unto the point of liberation, it's the hero's journey.

It is NOT a "heroic journey" to hide from the truth.

What do you cling to and what if you were to give it up in the face of a rational basis for faith and in particular the Christian faith?

"Cling" implies I have a need to hang onto something for support. Peace of mind ensures I need not "cling" to anything ever.

Since you offer nothing and defend nothing and can only attack what you do not know or understand, who is scared and who, courageous?

What can I offer?
You have it completely backwards.
It is: "What can YOU offer yourself, family, friends and community?"
It's up to EACH individual to choose their OWN path.
Asking someone else what that should be after leaving the church is merely trading one bad situation for another.
I don't have the "all-encompassing answer" that you claim god sustains you with and the dirty little secret is NO ONE DOES. Anyone who claims they have is lying.
This is why life is called a "journey".
We ALL must discover our OWN path.
THAT takes courage.
Now, please...stay on topic.

-Amitaba-

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

you are again assuming wrongly that God wants all to get saved from hell( Loving God christian idea) God is fine with saving the ones who want to.

WOW!! Did you get a promotion overnight to "official God-messenger"? They should make you a PROPHET! (hehe first I typed PROFIT....shoulda left it in there). How DARE you assume such a position!! It just goes to show that you are COMPLETELY in denial and REFUSE to consider ANY other religious thoughts or theories, or to even consider they are ALL wrong.

You are perhaps one of the most presumptuous of ALL the regulars here, thinking you know the mind of God. SHAME on you!!

He's YOUR imaginary tyrant. Keep him to yourself, please. He's a very depressing, unkind, and compassionless bloke, and judging by his followers, not much of a go-to guy. UNDOUBTEDLY and certainly an indifferent "boss."

Appalling.

Plz Don't "how you dare!" me.
That said, yes anyone assuming anything about God be it me, AI or you are wrong, UNLESS God has sent an authoritative message to let us know what and what not God is.
What i say depends on the topic of discussion and i am straight forward and i don't care (and can't in a single reply)to let you know my whole understanding of God.
When i am talking about issue of justice, i am talking about issue of justice and how it seems unjust if everyone gets forgiven even ones who thought they are above asking forgiveness as they don't want to accept a Superior over them.
When i'l talk about God's Mercy and Compassion then i'l talk about that.
I have tried to tell you to stop making assumptions and judgements about me by the tiny glimpses of my thoughts on some topics and then generalising it to assume my personality by it. Thats exactly what you do about Islam too so no surprises there.
So back to topic,
you think i would not accept if i get proof that my beliefs are wrong and then assume that i am stubborn because i am not accepting after being shown proof(i think FF would jump on this part and again repeat herself)

so the sub topic is what constitutes a universally acceptable proof?
Something that all will have to accept irrespective of their beliefs..

logical7
so the sub topic is what constitutes a universally acceptable proof?

No.
You and some of the others don't seem to be getting this.
There is NO sub-topic.
There is the threads topic and THAT'S it.
Pee or get off the pot, sir.

-Amitaba-

logical7
so the sub topic is what constitutes a universally acceptable proof?
Something that all will have to accept irrespective of their beliefs..

What is acceptable proof is FACT.
Truth isn't predicated upon how many believe it to be true.
Truth isn't predicated upon how many people can break free of previous indoctrination.
Proof is proof. Truth is truth.

Example - Nearly the entire planet thought the sun orbited around the earth. When told the truth - that the Earth orbits around the sun - the people who told this truth were put to death by the religiously indoctrinated mobs who made up the vast majority of the people of that time.

Sounds a lot like what happens to people in 'Muslim Countries' who dare point out that Muhammad was a mass murdering caravan thief and a known liar. For daring to tell the truth, they get murdered by the religiously indoctrinated who can't face facts.

Truth is truth .. mo matter how many people accept it or not.

FACTS have been shown over and over proving the Qu'ran wrong.
And you have yet to accept to accept the facts that run counter to your religious indoctrination.
But they are still facts. And the truth is that the Qu'ran is wrong.
No matter what you cling to in your indoctrination.

reply to post by Eryiedes


You are entitled to disagree with me and refrain from taking part in the discussion about the sub-topic.
Thanks.

reply to post by FlyersFan


FF, I completely agree with you that TRUTH is TRUTH and it doesn't matter if its a minority view.
But this is the problem, I say "Jesus pbuh is not god and thats the truth"
you say the opposite and claim the same.
You base your understanding on a scripture which was written by people who had a certain belief.
There are equally strong arguments in favour and in opposition to your claim. So how do you resolve that and conclude whats the Truth? There are no historical evidence for that claim except a interpretation of the Bible.
Historians can just say, Jesus pbuh may have been a jewish man who may have died on the cross. Period.

logical7
I say "Jesus pbuh is not god and thats the truth"
you say the opposite and claim the same.

I say that JESUS claimed to be God. And according to scripture, he did claim it. So it's the truth that He claimed it. But as far as Him being God .... I believe it but I can't say 'it's the truth that He is' ... I can only say 'it's the truth that He claimed it' and it's the truth that He backed up that claim with miracles .. it's been recorded by many eye witness.

As I said, if TRUTH came forward showing that Jesus didn't rise from the dead on His own then I'd have to change my beliefs. COMMON SENSE would indicate that I'd have to.

Now ... how about the truth that the stories in the Qu'ran have been debunked? The Qu'ran isn't 'incorrupt' because large portions have been shown to be fabrications and errors. That's the truth. That's not 'my truth'. That's just the truth. Adam and Eve didn't happen. Noahs Ark didn't happen. Exodus didn't happen. That's the proven truth. Not 'my truth'. PROVEN truth.

Indoctrination doesn't trump truth. It shoudln't anyways ...

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Have you ever had a mid-like crisis a "dark night of the soul"? Have you put your beliefs or lack thereof to the test and have you been put to the test?

You know exactly as much about me as I tell you. Which isn't a whole lot, trust me. There's my whole life you know nothing about, and approximately 95% of my thoughts and feelings to boot. This forum is relevant to a tiny fraction of my personality, and that's ALL you see.

So call me what you want, but I know who I am and you do not.

I speak from the authority of the one who was sent and who send me in turn, he is my light and my guide, and it's tried true and definitely tested.

Your family must be fairly bursting with pride.

On what authority do you speak, and if it's just your own personal experience, what access does the subjective isolate consciousness have to the objective reality or the truth of life?

I could ask you the same thing.

But i like you becaues you remind me of me when i entered onto the spiritual journey at about the age of 28 (i'm now going on 47).

Cool story bro.

i'd say you are just shy of 30, single, for now, reasonably good-looking, might have been at one time bi-curious, professionally employed or maybe self employed likely in a technical capacity. You're an artist, and a musician, but not serious you are 420 friendly, and your parents are and were a little rigid, conservative, upper-middle class and perhaps pillars of their community. Your hair is not short, light brown, you are clean shaven. You still wear rock concert t-shirts from time to time. You have lots of friends and although you have well developed extroverted skills are fundamentally introverted, even a bit of a loner, and you're rather sad and a little angry.

Oooh! I love this game! Last time someone tried to read me, they just demonstrated how much of their personality was under the influence of their sphincter tissues, if you catch my drift.

Hmm...50%, give or take 5%. Failing, by most standards. I'm not sad or angry. I'm empty. I am empty because I've realized how much simplicity gives me in contrast to being burdened with the byzantine structures of society, the ephemeral toys and shallow pursuits of the people around me. A walk on the beach as compared to a Porsche and a dumb blonde. Or how about an art studio as compared to a night club? One will give you inspiration, the other is just a distraction. I like to have room and quiet to look around and see things. I like to be able to process, whereas too much psychological baggage weighs me down like a hippo trying to navigate that maze in the movie Cube. It is difficult to practice archery at a masked ball. I can feel sorrow or anger, but that is in response to stimuli which irritate that pursuit of quiet clarity, that moment of glimpsing the idea I want to touch and reaching out and grasping some essence of it.

But that's the only correction I will offer. Does that sound like an angsty rebellious teenager to you?

reply to post by FlyersFan


I hate to disagree with you my dear, but logical is right...

Jesus did not ever claim to be God... the only way the claim can be made is by reading into passages deeper then what is needed...

Others claimed he was God... but he never made the claim, and even denied it in john 10

reply to post by Akragon

I hate to disagree with you my dear, but logical is right...

Jesus did not ever claim to be God... the only way the claim can be made is by reading into passages deeper then what is needed...

Others claimed he was God... but he never made the claim, and even denied it in john 10

Only a retarded god would make the matter so confusing and misinterpretable. Or maybe he's sadistic. I'm on the fence about that.

Akragon
Jesus did not ever claim to be God...

Reading Jesus words .... he did. But if you chose to interpret that differently, that's fine.
'Before Abraham I Am' ... He said he predates Abraham and he used the name of God 'I Am'.
Of course, Buddhists would see that a bit differently ... and they could be right about
their interpretation ...

Akragon
Jesus did not ever claim to be God...

I hate to break this to you but there's no evidence that Jesus even existed in the first place.
The only evidence to be found at all is in an ancient Roman legal document that refered to the christos (or the anointed one) and that's the same as saying:

"The defendant"

Not Jesus, Mark, John, Paul, George or Ringo...just DEFENDANT.
I will even go one better and state beyond the shadow of a doubt that since Christianity is simply allegory based on astrology, which in itself came from a pagan sun cult. A man as the "son of god" is NOT what they meant and in fact never made reference to a man at all. The "son" they refered to was the SUN OF GOD.
(The jewish faith is a Saturnian cult and I believe Islam is a lunar cult but take note...all astrological in nature)
Aside from that, there is no proof such a man EVER lived yet every devout Christian speaks about this mythical being with the same certainty and enthusiasm as one would claim:

"I saw Jimmy at the Starbucks having a latte."

The ONLY reason anyone claims there is lies in the fact that the Vatican insists it has "divine right" to interpret the old scripture...serving as both judge and advocate in this matter. You wouldn't do that in court but you'll do it with your life?
I can hardly think of anything more dishonest & disingenuine.
Now, I am certain I am about to hear some parable or scripture being cited as "proof of life" when NO SUCH PROOF EXISTS. Either that or how I must be pocessed to think such blasphemy.
No one can prove heresay but apparently the religiously inclined do this ALL the time simply because the church gave 'em the thumbs up.
(Notice the similarity between "heresay" and "heresy"...think this to be just a coinsedence?)
Pretty flimsy evidence upon which to base an entire lifetime of suffering & mourning your spirituality while claiming it frees & uplifts you.

-Amitaba-

(Note to self: Christianity is also cannibalistic since they can only be absolved of sin by eating the flesh and drinking the blood of christ. That said, I wonder how many communion wafers someone would have to consume before they ate an entire Jesus?)

reply to post by logical7

UNLESS God has sent an authoritative message to let us know what and what not God is.

AND "GOD" HASN'T.

In the far past ONLY MEN have claimed to "know the mind of God."

Never, EVER, has this entity 'appeared' EXCEPT IN NDEs!!! Now, perhaps Jesus had a profound NDE, and came back the same as these other DEAD people did...and if so, that in itself is 'miraculous'....
but it does NOT prove that Jesus was "the only begotten son of god." (which I know complies with your beliefs).....



Therefore, NDEs are FAR more reliable and direct communications with the omnipresent God (of which we are ALL a part) than ANY ancient scripture based on hearsay and HEARSAY ALONE.

People have recovered from terminal cancers spontaneously (see Mellen-Thomas Benedict and also Anita Moorjani, BOTH OF WHOM died and then returned to tell us of their encounter).

We ALL have the power to self-heal ----- JUST LIKE JESUS (SUPPOSEDLY) SAID. And also just as he said, "You can do the things I did."

WE ARE ALL ONE, and are ALL a part of God.
Just like Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, and even the Baha'i guy have said. Mo was wrong. Sorry.