What is so scary about thinking, or discovering, your Religion is false?

reply to post by FlyersFan


FF, You said how the church persecuted and killed the people who said that earth revolves round the sun.
Guess what, there were some sects when the church was in the process of consolidating & increasing its power who believed that Jesus pbuh was a human Prophet and the church tried to "make them disappear"
what would you say to this? Do you believe that the church had the best interest of its subjects' salvation at heart?
I don't want to drift from the topic, i am just asking, if you have examined all this for yourself as critically as you invest your energies into vilifying Islam.
Do you know that the gospels were given their names later. Nobody can claim that they were actually written by Mark, Matthew..
This i have heard from a Bible scholar and not some anti-christian site.
Don't you think these points are worth examining by yourself before believing a tall claim of someone being god? When you are so skeptical and critical of a claim of prophethood by Muhammad pbuh which in comparison is much more easily acceptable.

reply to post by wildtimes


I wish writing something in BOLD made it true.
There are 2 ways it can be
1) Either God didn't send any scripture
2) God sent it and you refuse to examine it and/or deny it after examination.
Lets not go there for now, maybe you should take your time to examine it more.

About NDEs
i don't deny that they are fascinating. What i know is during a near death situation the brain released a potent hallucinogen, '___'. The same thing is found in d drink that some tribe in amazon have and taking it is no child's play as the experience can be life changing.
Qur'an says that we have a veil on our eyes and so we can't see the whole reality and maybe this '___' somehow alters it.
Qur'an even has a verse which very much resembles a talk on NDE.

50:19 And the stupor of death will bring Truth (before his eyes): "This was the thing which thou wast trying to escape!"

and you cannot say that Muhammad pbuh was wrong when you do not even know what things he said.

P.S- I forgot that the name of drugs can't be mentioned, its TMD read backward.

reply to post by logical7

There are 2 ways it can be
1) Either God didn't send any scripture
2) God sent it and you refuse to examine it and/or deny it after examination.

No. There are MYRIAD ways "it can be."

1)Correct

2) Incorrect. I have examined it. You seem to think I haven't, despite all of the info I've given and linked and c/p over the years.....

I HAVE EXAMINED the 'supposed scriptures' "sent" in the Abrahamic religions. And they don't add up. NONE of them.

3rd way it can be:

GOD did not 'give scripture'. MEN wrote scripture. Therefore, SCRIPTURE does not count. Real-life experiences like NDEs are FAR closer to disclosing the truth in ways we can understand than ANY of the 'ancient' scriptures. Since we have no way of determining what 'ancients' actually experienced - we must infer that these things happen to people, and it has been 'attempted' to disclose it, WHEN NO WORDS WILL SUFFICE. The tales in the ancient scriptures lead one to believe that people have inexplicable experiences, and no matter how they try, they can NOT put it into words.

So - the 'Words' written by the ancients are suspect. NOW, we have people (some estimates say 600 per day across the USA) having NDEs, and then telling others about them.

THOSE stories, those FIRST-PERSON stories, are worth far more than 'ancient religious tomes' that are undermined by superstition and other nonsense.


sigh

reply to post by wildtimes



God is in a class without classification. He is one, but not like the number, He has no second. Nothing can compare, and minds cannot perceive.


Nahjul Balagha-179: Dhi`lib al-Yamani asked Amir al-mu'minin whether he had seen Allah, when he replied, "Do I worship one whom I have not seen?" Then he enquired, "How have you seen Him?" Then Amir al-mu'minin replied:

Eyes do not see Him face to face, but hearts perceive Him through the haqaiq ul imaan. He is near to things but not (physically) contiguous. He is far from them but not (physically) separate. He is a speaker, but not with reflection. He intends, but not with preparation. He moulds, but not with (the assistance of) limbs. He is subtle but cannot be attributed with being concealed. He is great but cannot be attributed with haughtiness. He sees but cannot be attributed with the sense (of sight). He is Merciful but cannot be attributed with weakness of heart. Faces feel low before His greatness and hearts tremble out of fear of Him.

It's also based on a simple truth of nature:

Colorless light manifests its true nature in different colours when seen in Prism:



Prism is prism (transparent optical element with flat, polished surfaces that refract light) and light is light, there is no comparison between the two yet the prior is the medium for manifestation of the later's colors.

In our belief, the haqaiq ul iman is to God what prism is to light. That is how God, the unknowable, can become known.

wildtimes

3rd way it can be:

GOD did not 'give scripture'. MEN wrote scripture. Therefore, SCRIPTURE does not count.

Yá'át'ééh,

(Navajo greeting)

Well wildtimes, I've thought it over carefully and I think I'm gonna go with door number three...or can I use a Lifeline?



-Amitaba-

reply to post by wildtimes


why do you assume that the "ancients" also had NDE like experiences which were tried to be written down.
Its you who are convinced that NDEs are the way to the TRUTH not me.
For me an NDE can be nothing more than a trip to a real glimpse into what waits after death but no way to categories which is the TRUTH and which is a product of the individual's personal past experience and beliefs under the influence of a hallucinogen.

I do not take TRUTHS that are subjective and I believe that God must communicate to humans of all times and not wait for humans to discover NDEs.
And if God did not communicate then it doesn't matter how one lives or behaves and its just jungle law all over.

reply to post by OpinionatedB

Eyes do not see Him face to face, but hearts perceive Him through the haqaiq ul imaan

And what, exactly, is the "haqaiq ul imaan"?

reply to post by NewAgeMan

"The supreme challenge posed by Christianity is how to receive a gift of incalculable value for which there is nothing you can do to earn or deserve."
~ C.S. Lewis, converted atheist, who saw the genius.

*smiles* Perhaps the next step to exploring this matter would be to explore how others explored this matter. I'm particularly fond of Mr. Lewis, Tolkien, and J.K. Rowling, all of whom are fantastic authors with an intellectual depth to shame my own.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


It might best be understood as "The realities of faith." However, that doesn't seem right to say only that as it encompasses so much meaning.

But right now I am not thinking well to explain right. Please forgive me. I will try again later.

reply to post by OpinionatedB

It might best be understood as "The realities of faith." However, that doesn't seem right to say only that as it encompasses so much meaning.

But right now I am not thinking well to explain right. Please forgive me. I will try again later.

You do that. At the moment, you seem to be confusing substance with smoke.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


i WILL say one thing... what that is, is something every man woman and child must figure out for themselves. No one can really tell you... like any experiential thing.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by Akragon

Akragon I hate to disagree with you my dear, but logical is right... Jesus did not ever claim to be God... the only way the claim can be made is by reading into passages deeper then what is needed... Others claimed he was God... but he never made the claim, and even denied it in john 10

Nope he never claimed to be God; and perhaps that is why he was crucified (couldnt state his case clearly), came off as just another percieved "HOLY MANIAC" that holds no value because theirs has both an element of religious sanctification 'off limits' (sufi trance tradition as example) and a touch of percieved mental instability/unreality.

AfterInfinity
Only a retarded god would make the matter so confusing and misinterpretable. Or maybe he's sadistic. I'm on the fence about that.

.

Id call God Autistic if anything, certainly an x/y graph of misdeads vs good deeds would reveal some sadistic tendencies as in the angle of the line would head more towards hell than heaven. Up/down, down wins 'HU-MANICANS' loose, (switching to blackjack analogy) I think the deck was stacked against them in the first place.

reply to post by vethumanbeing

I think the deck was stacked against them in the first place.

Against us? You got that right. But somehow, by some spectacular feat of mental gymnastics, it's all our fault. Pfft.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by vethumanbeing

I think the deck was stacked against them in the first place.

AfterInfinity
Against us? You got that right. But somehow, by some spectacular feat of mental gymnastics, it's all our fault. Pfft.

Yes and God/IT is getting away with it; why? because we dont question a "percieved creator being" and I cant leave it up to human stupidy by faulty evolution, because perfection/imperfection exists (imbalance in the natural world exists at times, local locust plagues etc). Its our mental gymnastics that convince ourselves that a benevolent Creator exists. If it does it requires a 'home inspection' visit from CPS.

reply to post by logical7

and you cannot say that Muhammad pbuh was wrong when you do not even know what things he said.

I told you I read it, as much as it was distasteful to me.

But you keep telling me the things I 'read' were "not really Islam." So I kept looking. And reading.

reply to post by OpinionatedB


Hi there, OpB. I'm rather surprised (and pleased!) to see you again...especially here!

Hope your daughter is feeling better day by day.

reply to post by OpinionatedB

God is in a class without classification. He is one, but not like the number, He has no second. Nothing can compare, and minds cannot perceive.

Exactly. So, to my thinking, there is NO WAY, nor any real reason, to apply "human" emotions such as jealousy, revenge, spite, and other violence......to that "God" which, as you say, CAN NOT BE DESCRIBED. By ANY of us.

reply to post by vethumanbeing

Its our mental gymnastics that convince ourselves that a benevolent Creator exists. If it does it requires a 'home inspection' visit from CPS.

Ha! That's only the first step, if true justice is to be observed. I would suggest lots and lots of counseling and rehabilitation.

wildtimes
reply to post by OpinionatedB

 

God is in a class without classification. He is one, but not like the number, He has no second. Nothing can compare, and minds cannot perceive.

Exactly. So, to my thinking, there is NO WAY, nor any real reason, to apply "human" emotions such as jealousy, revenge, spite, and other violence......to that "God" which, as you say, CAN NOT BE DESCRIBED. By ANY of us.

There is no possibility of comprehension or relation between our species and that sort of being. It is as beyond our scope as the edge of the universe.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Reading Jesus words .... he did. But if you chose to interpret that differently, that's fine.

Well, because you are my friend I would really prefer not to get into this debate but I must point out that im actually speaking about his words... By his words, he never claimed to be God.

Though I respect peoples choice to worship who they will... and IF one must worship a man, he is definitely the best choice

'Before Abraham I Am' ... He said he predates Abraham and he used the name of God 'I Am'.

That quote only shows that he pre-existed his incarnation... but all of us pre-existed this incarnation

By his words... IF you plan on going to heaven when you pass... You've already been there

Look...

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:


I would also say that I AM is not the name of God.... We do not know Gods "name" Nor are we worthy to know such information... Humans are a pathetic species, barely worthy of life as it is...

Ask yourself this... names are given by those that take care of us when we are born...Our parents

IF God has a name, who gave it to him if he is the first and the last?

God has no name because there was no one to give him that name... any name we know or use for God was made by man... so out of respect we just use God... Jesus called him Father... as do I