What is so scary about thinking, or discovering, your Religion is false?

reply to post by FlyersFan


Then how do you explain the "Swiss Guards"?
An independant paramilitary force that serves only the Vatican.
(That doesn't even mention the Noble or Palatine Guards)
How about the Manmasi National Christian Army which went in to force the conversion of Hindu's?
I'm sure if I delved into it further I could find all sorts of examples to cite which speak otherwise of your claim.

-Amitaba-

reply to post by logical7

Who is more likely to be telling the truth ... hmmmm ...
Side by side comparison of Jesus and Muhammad ...


Jesus claimed to have 'come down from Heaven' and that he predated Abraham. He also claimed the title 'I AM' which the Jews knew was the title of God Himself.
Muhammad claimed to have heavenly visions.

Jesus backed up his claims with healing miracles. He caused the lame to walk; the blind to see; the deaf to hear; He rose the dead back to life; He rose Himself from the dead.
Muhammad backed up his claims with death. Instead of healing people, he had them slaughtered.

Jesus was poor and had 'no place to lay his head'.
Muhammad was a caravan thief.

Jesus apostles lived peacefully and were killed for preaching the peaceful teachings of Jesus.
Muhammads followers slaughtered people and murdered those who spoke against Muhammad.
Muhammad gave his approval of this.

Jesus - spoke well of women and said that one man and one woman marry, becoming 'one'.
Muhammad - women were 1/2 as smart as men (Hadith 3:826; 2:541), that the majority in hell will be women (Had. 1:28,301; 2:161; 7:124), and that women could be mortgaged and should be beaten at will.

Jesus - prayer is simple and unadorned from the heart (Matt: 6:5-13)
Muhammad - 488 - passing in front of a praying person annuls his prayer; 690 - if the prayer rows aren't straight, the prayer is not good 717 - if you look up during prayer, you'll lose your eyesight (Bukhari, Vol. 1)

Jesus - "Preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15). Brings conversion.
Muhammad - "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them" (Qu'ran 9.5) Brings death.

Jesus gave his life for others.
Muhammad took the lives of others.

Jesus owned no slaves.
Muhammad owned slaves.

Christ - "Believe and live!" (John 6:47; 11:25-26)
Muhammad - "Convert or die!"

Jesus never married but instead dedicated His life to the message of God.
Muhammad had at least 13 'wives' and was obsessed with sex. His teachings reek of misogyny.

Jesus taught forgiveness “forgive those who trespass against you.” (Matthew 6:10-15)
Muhammad taught to avenge trespasses against your honor, family or religion.
And Muhammad ordered/rewarded the murder of those who he considered enemies.

Jesus - Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." (Matthew 5:14)
Muhammad - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads
and strike off every fingertip of them." "Allah" (Qur'an 8:12)

Jesus taught - God loves everyone. (John 3:16)
Muhammad taught - Allah hates those who don't accept Islam. (Qur'an 30:45, 3:32, 22:38)

Jesus last words - "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
Muhammads last words - "May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of the prophets." Bukhari, Vol. 1, #427

Jesus taught - let him without sin cast the first stone. (John 8:7)
Muhammad taught - Stone women for adultery (not sure what the man's punishment is)

Jesus - Chastised anyone attempting to defend him with force. (John 18:10-12)
Muhammad - Demanded the protection of armed bodyguards, even in a house of worship (Qur'an 4:102)

Jesus was crucified.
Muhammad advocated crucifying others (Qur'an 5:33, Muslim 16:4131)

Jesus died for others.
Muhammad had others die for him.

Jesus died for us and rose from the dead.
Muhammad died and rotted in the grave.

Christian afterlife - to be with God forever and live like the angels. Spiritual.
Muslim afterlife - one big orgy of the senses and copulation with 'virgins' forever. Organic.

Comparison between Jesus and Muhammad
Jesus vs Muhammad
Another Comparison Jesus and Muhammad
Mohammad vs Christ
Differences between Jesus and Muhammad

reply to post by Eryiedes

The Swiss Guards are body guards for the pope. That's it. They aren't an armed horde.
They aren't invading countries ... mass murdering ... pushing Christianity ... etc.
If you want armed hordes you have to go to that time period in Christianity of the
crusades. That was hundreds and hundreds of years ago.

reply to post by FlyersFan


You overlooked something.

"Original Sin"

In my eyes, that makes Christianity and Islam neck and neck for the world cup title of cruel.

-Amitaba-

Eryiedes
Manmasi National Christian Army which went in to force the conversion of Hindu's?

I had to go look that up. I've never heard of them.

The best information I could come up with was this - Christians who became terrorists
I"m seeing some bad stuff by a few isolated people and a few groups.
But I'm not seeing 'hordes' ...

Still searching .... not much info out there on this ....

reply to post by Eryiedes

Sorry ... but I"m not sure what you mean. Could you explain??

Do you mean 'HUMAN NATURE' ?? Basic human nature being violent?
I think that secular rule of law keeps any violent human nature in check.
Be it fundamentalist christian or sharia-Islam ...
The West has secular rule of law and therefore there aren't any 'hordes' of fundamentalist christians
going on rampages.
The Muslim countries haven't evolved to that point.

( I'm not sold on 'original sin'. For there to be 'original sin' then there would have to be an
Adam and Eve ... and we know that's just a creation myth ... one of many )

FlyersFan
Do you mean 'HUMAN NATURE' ?? Basic human nature being violent?

First of all, I don't think violence is at the heart of human nature.
The violence you speak of is actually a part of our environment and not our nature.
We simply react TO that environment.
In a violent place and time, it is to be expected that those who come from it WILL be violent. But this does not prove that violence is inherent in man. It only establishes that his environment forms his reality.

Secondly, No.
I meant the Christian Doctrine of "original sin" is a lie on par with the gravity of Islamic Jihad.
To say that some ancient dude ate an apple and now EVERYBODY is screwed.
Newborns, people living a "saintly" existance...people who never did anyone any wrong...TOO BAD. ALL EVIL, EVERYBODY GOTTA GO!!! As if they had all been serial child rapists.
That, to me, is JUST as dispicable as Islam roaming through the countryside doing whatever it pleases.
I see no difference in this respect at all.
Christianity was a bit more surreptitious about hiding it's sins but little else.
Using your Crusades example, I see it like this:

A man goes out and murders, plunders, rapes and pillages another group of people because they are different and he wants to pocess what they have or he's afriad of them. He succeeds and goes home. He starts up a company with that money and makes a hefty profit. He sells a product that everyone seems to love and becomes fabulously rich doing it. He creates charities...tries to help the poor...and comes across like an all around good guy...a pillar of the community.

Here's the problem:

THAT man is STILL the same murderer. He's a little older...he's a little wiser...he has a new look...he has a new philosophy...he has a new sales pitch and maybe even a new jingle to hock his product but at the end of the day he's STILL the same heartless shell of a human who attempted the genocide of those different from himself.

"Oh, but that was BEFORE...I don't do that anymore."

No, it's STILL the same guy...the same murderer...the same trick...the same lie.
I don't know about anyone else but I for one could not overlook nor forgive that.
He's still guilty of the SAME crimes and should be held to task for what he's done regardless of how much time has transpired.
Your arguement is like saying a psychopath who is currently murdering others is better than an older unreformed and unrepentant (just as bloodthirsty) psychopath who is guilty of the identical crimes and has a bodycount that's virtually the same...if not greater. He's just learned to hide the bodies.
Seems a bit like semantics to me.

Oh, and yes...I'll concede the MNCA is just a group and not a "horde".
Appologies for not reading up more on them before posting it.
I stand corrected on "modern" christian armies but I think the Crusades example shows there's no real difference regardless of the time passed since the crime.

-Amitaba-

Eryiedes
I meant the Christian Doctrine of "original sin" is a lie on par with the gravity of Islamic Jihad.
To say that some ancient dude ate an apple and now EVERYBODY is screwed.

OOOOH ... okay. I couldn't follow what you were getting at. Okay.

Well, the difference I see is this ..

'Original sin' ... you yourself are screwed unless you accept baptism. But it isn't forced on you. You can still decline baptism and go believe what you want. (as I said .. I'm not sold on 'original sin', so I'm not defending it, I'm just discussing it)

Islamic Jihad ... go out and screw everyone who doesn't believe in Islam. It's forced upon others. If you decline conversion then you die or are treated as a dhimmi and not a real citizen or real person with the same rights.

I"m seeing it differently. But that's probably my psychology background talking to me ...
One is self defeating but not forced on the general public (original sin).
One is outwardly violent and not an option to deal with (Islamic Jihad).

That's what I see but if you see it differently .. that's okay. No problem.

Eryiedes
Your arguement is like saying a psychopath who is currently murdering others is better than an older unreformed and unrepentant (just as bloodthirsty) psychopath who is guilty of the identical crimes and has a bodycount that's virtually the same...if not greater. He's just learned to hide the bodies.

No. I"m saying exactly what it is ...

Christianity didn't start out a murdering corrupt mess.
It became that during the crusade ages.
But then it evolved and went back on course.

It doesn't have hordes of mass murdering psychopaths running around forcing people to believe/convert or die. It simply doesn't. And if anyone is doing that and happens to be Christian, they are very few and far between. People who kill and happen to be Christian are almost always NOT killing because of their religion. They are killing despite it.

There is corruption in Christianity. False preachers raking in $$$ by feeding off the hopes and dreams of those who want to believe. But they aren't out preaching mass murder with hordes following them. The false preachers are sucking money off the people and living a lavish lifestyle. Christians were warned about them long ago ... 'beware of wolves in sheeps clothing'.

FlyersFan
It doesn't have hordes of mass murdering psychopaths running around forcing people to believe/convert or die. It simply doesn't. And if anyone is doing that and happens to be Christian, they are very few and far between.

The christians are far more indirect about how they recruit others. Instead of just "conquoring" (like they used to) they learned to just quietly abuse children under the guise of "saving their souls" to get their new flocks. They choose victems who are too young to defend against anything.
Is THAT what you mean by "evolved"?

There is corruption in Christianity. False preachers raking in $$$ by feeding off the hopes and dreams of those who want to believe. But they aren't out preaching mass murder with hordes following them. The false preachers are sucking money off the people and living a lavish lifestyle. Christians were warned about them long ago ... 'beware of wolves in sheeps clothing'.

Thats right...instead they quietly abuse children to get what they want. Mostly mentally but frequently physically as well. I'm sorry...but once more...IMO they are the exact same.
They play by different rules, hand out different door prizes and dispence different punishments but at the end of the day...I refuse to say one is better than the other because that's not the reality of it.

Slavery is slavery...is slavery.

-Amitaba-

reply to post by FlyersFan


Oops FF. Good post.
Except the after life will be quite physical.

God Bless

Eryiedes

wildtimes
I'm not sure who you're talking to, here, Eryiedes. Have you ever lost a loved family member to death? The emotions experienced are indescribable; rather like when one has a baby - it can't be explained, it must be experienced in order to understand.

I have been to 9 funerals for family and 5 for friends...so the answer to that would be yes. I cried only once.
Emotions are nothing more than electrical impulses and chemical precursors. They can be manipulated by remote triggering through the EM spectrum, directly with electricity or even internally with something as simple as chocolate (as is the case with love). There's nothing mysterious about them...at least from where I am standing.

Whether or not there is anything beyond Earth, we are a fragile bunch. The world is a frightening place, and we need one another. So, when unpleasant things like death face us, it is usually without "tools" and "skills" already in place. The words we string together and the phrases we can come up with are a part of our Divine nature reaching out to one another.

I fail to see what divinity you refer to in our varied systems of communication.
Language is just words.
Words are just sounds that we ascribed meaning to by using the pavlovian method.
We just made it all up.
Nothing "divine" about that.

I don't feel shame for sharing spiritual thoughts with someone who is suffering. I've been there, too.

I'm not claiming there should be shame attached to it.
I am saying it's simply emotional solace and that for me is an empty cup.
Emotions can be the source of addiction just as easily as drugs and gambling but emotional addiction is a bit more insidious as it requires no money or effort to become enslaved to.
Emotions are how hollywood manipulates it's adoring fans.
Emotions are how parents manipulate children.
Emotions are how the government manipulates the voters.
And emotions are also how religion control the faithful.
Thusly I am ever wary of them.

-Peace be with you-

I've heard it said that atheism is a bad thing because it renders us something more machine than human, something cold and calculating instead of warm and understanding. It appears they may have a point.

reply to post by FlyersFan

It doesn't have hordes of mass murdering psychopaths running around forcing people to believe/convert or die.

Interesting premise. I would like to ask you, though, my friend.....what about the Charismatic/New Apostolic Reformation folks, like John Hagee (mega-church Zionist pastor), who want the USA to DROP A BOMB ON IRAN, AND DO IT NOW?!!!

I consider those to be mass-murdering psychopaths who are calling for deaths abroad.

Also, the idiots like Ted Cruz, Michelle Bachmann, Newt Gingrich, etc. who are trying to bring the USA to be a THEOCRATIC NATION???

They aren't exactly "fluffy bunny" types. As many problems as I have with our "government", shutting it down and threatening the populace with teaching "Young Earth Creationism" in PUBLIC SCHOOLS really, really make me nervous.

They believe they "prayed Mother Theresa to death." They are dangerous, and yes, there are HOARDS of them.....
they just stay "under the radar."

What do you make of THOSE "Christians"?

reply to post by wildtimes

As I said before .... secular rule of law keeps those nutters in line.
It's part of the evolving thing.
Christianity has evolved. The crusades are dead.

If Christians start flying planes into buildings and blowing up innocent people enmasse,
then I'll say it's de-evolving again. But until then ... the extreme Christians pretty much
just abuse themselves ..

AfterInfinity

I've heard it said that atheism is a bad thing because it renders us something more machine than human, something cold and calculating instead of warm and understanding. It appears they may have a point.

So now you would accuse me of be "cold and calculating"?
I don't know what to say to that except:

"How Christian of you."

-Amitaba-

FlyersFan
Christianity has evolved. The crusades are dead.

Life evolves.
Christianity simply hired a new PR firm.
They are just as despotic and tyranical as they ALWAYS were.
Just because they now hide their crimes better does not make them any better.
Simply saying something over and over again does not make it true.

-Amitaba-

Eryiedes
Instead of just "conquoring" (like they used to) they learned to just quietly abuse children under the guise of "saving their souls" to get their new flocks.

What you call abusing isn't abuse, IMHO. Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists ... whatever. They can teach their children the faith. When the kids get older, they can do as they wish. Parents have a right to raise their children as they wish (And I say that while disagreeing with a majority of what Christian churches believe). The parents aren't teaching them to go out and be suicide bombers ... or to fly airplanes into buildings .... so until that happens I have to go with Christianity has evolved further than Islam.

I'm sorry...but once more...IMO they are the exact same.

It's your opinion and you are welcome to it. No apologies necessary.

In a perfect world there would be no indoctrination.
But at least the vast majority of Christians aren't indoctrinated into violence.
And nearly all are either non-violent or held in check with secular law.
I can't say the same about Islam.

reply to post by Eryiedes

So now you would accuse me of be "cold and calculating"?
I don't know what to say to that except:

"How Christian of you."

-Amitaba-

Hrm.....
perhaps you aren't quite up to speed on who's who here. AfterInfinity is NOT a Christian. He is an atheist. And I must admit I found your post to display a rather "cold and calculating" tone myself. I would not want to be devoid of emotion. That makes us automatons. And, given that NDEs overwhelmingly speak of "LOVE" being the driving, unifying force of the universe as far as we are concerned, I'd say that not to feel "Love" would be a very sad existence indeed.

To feel profound love, here, in life, means also feeling profound sorrow.

And, btw, on another note; why do you sign off with "Amitaba"? I know it is a reference to Amitaba Buddha, but I don't get it as a sign off. Or --- are you signing off with that as your "spiritual name"?

I don't understand.

Namaste, all the same.

reply to post by Eryiedes

So now you would accuse me of be "cold and calculating"?
I don't know what to say to that except:

"How Christian of you."

-Amitaba-

I never said you were. You do, however, give the impression of leaning that way.

Oh, and I'm not a Christian. Christianity works as well for me as walking around with my eyes closed. So you can get that idea out of your head too.

ETA: One more thing. It's "Amitabha". You forgot the 'h'. Repeatedly.

reply to post by Angelic Resurrection

Except the after life will be quite physical.

How so, AR??

Interesting.