What is so scary about thinking, or discovering, your Religion is false?

reply to post by logical7

Do you agree with me that if a individual/society have become immoral they would need an external unbiased correction to go back to morality?

That is already happening. It's called the Justice System of Humans.

Too bad for "God" I guess, that humans aren't (YET) capable of keeping someone alive for eternity while burning them simultaneously...that as soon as their skin melts off it is replaced to prolong the torture....(LIKE 'HE' WANTS TO DO - and I just see 'him' sitting there rubbing his hands with an evil smile)


....to my knowledge, the only people who DO want to do that, are pushers of religions that say: "well, no, we can't manage it now, but it's going to happen later, no worries! 'God' will take care of it!! WE HATE THEM!!"

That

is

sick.

What you call "a line" has been my actual experience, and there is indeed a domain of absolute liberation of which we had no prior frame of reference or experience, it's real and it exists but there are probably few who've caught a glimpse of what it's like through the gateway.

Translation: "I was abused as a child and I am incapable of thinking critically or acting free of the lie I was imprinted with."

The tricky part is to retain the freedom to freely come and go, without getting totally sucked back into a false reality and worldview well populated by those cynics who have nothing to offer but snide remarks and catcalls from the stands, while the immense field of unexplored possibility stretches itself out before them, unexplored even unseen.

Translation: "I had to ignore every fact you presented which didn't support my world view and now only make comments on matters not related to the OP."

It wasn't just a "line".

Translation: "Of COURSE it's a line but I CAN'T admit that!"

Btw, there's no need to be rude or willfully ignorant and no need to just assume because to you, clearly, the knowledge resides in the realm of an unknown unknown or what you don't even know you don't know.

Translation: "It's called a double standard and maybe you've heard of it?"

This last comment really had the poster clutching at straws: "Knowledge resides in the realm of the unknown."

To the religious who spend all their time standing in the dark, rejecting facts and reality based on their childhood truma, this sort of reaction is typical.
Thank you for watching another episode of: "What I am REALLY saying."

-Amitaba-

reply to post by wildtimes

EDIT: NO, the killings are happening
for RELIGIOUS reasons. If the Islamists
would stop shooting little girls like
Malala, and stop suicide-bombing
restaurants and markets, and stop
acting like douchebags....things would ease up A LOT.

this is a typical reply wildtimes. I don't deny that these things have happened but terrorism experts disagree with you. People resort to violence(terrorism) when they perceive injustice. You see whats aparent but do you question why?
During the crusaders the peasants joined it and it sure was made easy by painting it religious but the real reason was unemployment etc. Right now in ME its the percieved attack on their homelands. I am not condoning it, i am merely pointing that you think of a reaction as action and buy into the idea that muslims want to conquer the world. You really think its a smart strategy to suicide bomb and kill a few and get hundreds of innocent muslims killed by the retaliatry bombings? How about asking a more basic question. "who benefits by all this?"

reply to post by logical7

During the crusaders the peasants joined it and it sure was made easy by painting it religious but the real reason was unemployment etc. Right now in ME its the percieved attack on their homelands.

I am not condoning it, i am merely pointing that you think of a reaction as action and buy into the idea that muslims want to conquer the world. You really think its a smart strategy to suicide bomb and kill a few and get hundreds of innocent muslims killed by the retaliatry bombings? How about asking a more basic question. "who benefits by all this?"

We have had this discussion, log7. NUMEROUS times.

I have NEVER removed due blame and responsibility from the USA Administration. EVER. The drone attacks are WRONG and EVIL.

Malala herself stood up to Obama and said, "YOU ARE MAKING IT WORSE." !!!

The PROBLEM, log7, is all the thugs doing car bombs, shooting little girls, suicide bombs, etc.....REALLY DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO with the 'global economy'. When it is clear they are yelling "Allahu akbar" or whatever before beheading a common soldier, and simultaneously taking the 'benefits' their host is offering them, it has NOTHING to do with 'food'.

And it's sick.

Those monsters are doing it because they want blood. You are telling me they know all about the 'global economy crisis' and the 'oil wars'? That's impossible. You yourself are an example of the FEW educated Muslims out there. You yourself have acknowledged 'they're not doing it right.' The TRUTH is that they are looking for any reason to kill 'the infidels' and 'others,' BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM THEY COULD.

Seventy-two doe-eyed virgins!! Do it for Allah!!! Do it!! Do it!



YOU CANNOT DENY THAT.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


No it's more about integrity and wholeness, re-integration and absolute acceptance in absolute forgiveness where there is no loss of the integrity of self as an integral part of the all-in-all, so it's like standing on the very ground of all being and becoming as the domain of limitless possibility aka the holy of holies where God lives, so it's a type of self knowledge IN and WITH God and thus relative to a never-ending domain of true life. So it's not like being lost in some sort of vacuous void by "passive suicide", but instead being found or rediscovered in divinity where the "kingdom of heaven" is both within and without. It is to stand in the midst of and relative to the whole of it all as a sacred being aka child of God, without getting lost. What wells up from this "space" it vital energy, and joy, and an almost childlike playful wonderment and awe, and where there is nothing we MUST do or are compelled to do ie: unconditional ground of being, it would seem that the original creative impulse and catalyst to action of some kind is the very same love by which this entire circumstance came about via an original intent with us included and in mind even beginning with the end in mind (timeless, spaceless domain). In other words when there's nothing to do the only thing worth doing, is to love, which includes the love of God who's will is love, and love of self as other as self or to love as we are first loved by virtue of our own inclusion. Like I said it's a re-integrative, evolutionary principal of life meeting life in eternity already always, now and forevermore, and that is what it means to "enter into the kingdom of heaven".

What you refer to is a logical conclusion of Buddhism being fundamentally nihilistic, something which Jesus repudiated when he said "what does it gain a man to gain the WHOLE WORLD, but lose his own soul" (character, passion, charm).

Christianity celebrates the uniqueness and individual integrity of every person, as a part of within the framework and context of the whole family of God, which is a heavenly household framed by love, made by love and for love within which there is no limitation or constraint because it is the domain of all possibility.

"Love, and do as you will."
~ St. Augustine.

reply to post by wildtimes

YOU CANNOT DENY THAT.

I do not deny that.
And i appreciate that you accept the wrongs that your governments are doing.
I am merely pointing that it can stop if either the USA gov and allies stop or the brainless terrorists stop. I however see that the western powers are actually pouring oil over the fire and i refuse to believe that they are this dumb when they have think tanks who help them create policies etc. So this is by design. Why drones attack in pakistan? The simple answer is that they want a terrorist attack conducted by pakis so that they could attack pakistan. Pakistan is the only muslim country with a nuclear bomb you see.

And yes its all religious to the core. The temple of Solomon needs to be rebuild in Jerusalem so that Jesus pbuh can return and Masjid Al-Aqsa needs to be demolished for it and a nuclear capable muslim country is a big threat preventing it.

reply to post by wildtimes

YOU CANNOT DENY THAT.

I do not deny that.
And i appreciate that you accept the wrongs that your governments are doing.
I am merely pointing that it can stop if either the USA gov and allies stop or the brainless terrorists stop. I however see that the western powers are actually pouring oil over the fire and i refuse to believe that they are this dumb when they have think tanks who help them create policies etc. So this is by design. Why drones attack in pakistan? The simple answer is that they want a terrorist attack conducted by pakis so that they could attack pakistan. Pakistan is the only muslim country with a nuclear bomb you see.

And yes its all religious to the core. The temple of Solomon needs to be rebuild in Jerusalem so that Jesus pbuh can return and Masjid Al-Aqsa needs to be demolished for it and a nuclear capable muslim country is a big threat preventing it.

logical7
this is a typical reply wildtimes. I don't deny that these things have happened but terrorism experts disagree with you. People resort to violence(terrorism) when they perceive injustice. You see whats aparent but do you question why?
During the crusaders the peasants joined it and it sure was made easy by painting it religious but the real reason was unemployment etc. Right now in ME its the percieved attack on their homelands. I am not condoning it, i am merely pointing that you think of a reaction as action and buy into the idea that muslims want to conquer the world. You really think its a smart strategy to suicide bomb and kill a few and get hundreds of innocent muslims killed by the retaliatry bombings? How about asking a more basic question. "who benefits by all this?"

All you have just established is that those who whorship Islam are JUST as deft at avoiding the OP's questions as the Christians are.
Please, stay on topic or start a new thread.
That said, comparing Islam to Christianity or Judaism is like saying:

"This sheep is different from that sheep which is different from THAT sheep..."

It's just another false dichotomy...another tiger chasing it's own tail.

-Amitaba-

reply to post by logical7


The problem with Islam is that Mohammed's violent take no prisoners, conquer the world "war-lording" and beheadings in Medina, trumps the enlightenment in Mecca, when it ought to be the other way around.

If I were in charge I would send in an "army" of educated scholars and clerics to straighten it all out.

Otherwise Islam does represent a thread to the Liberty principal of modern global civilization.

That said, 9/11 was an inside job.

Eryiedes

logical7
this is a typical reply wildtimes. I don't deny that these things have happened but terrorism experts disagree with you. People resort to violence(terrorism) when they perceive injustice. You see whats aparent but do you question why?
During the crusaders the peasants joined it and it sure was made easy by painting it religious but the real reason was unemployment etc. Right now in ME its the percieved attack on their homelands. I am not condoning it, i am merely pointing that you think of a reaction as action and buy into the idea that muslims want to conquer the world. You really think its a smart strategy to suicide bomb and kill a few and get hundreds of innocent muslims killed by the retaliatry bombings? How about asking a more basic question. "who benefits by all this?"

All you have just established is that those who whorship Islam are JUST as deft at avoiding the OP's questions as the Christians are.
Please, stay on topic or start a new thread.
That said, comparing Islam to Christianity or Judaism is like saying:

"This sheep is different from that sheep which is different from THAT sheep..."

It's just another false dichotomy...another tiger chasing it's own tail.

-Amitaba-

The 'elephant in the room' to not even engage you is a huuuge tell! You're not alone...
Some realisations are harder to make real, because they require dissolving other 'realisations'...
I would have thought that this WAS the meat in the sandwich of the thread...and by deflection of, even the question (let alone a pertinent reply), we are finding out why...



Å99

reply to post by NewAgeMan

No it's more about integrity and wholeness, re-integration and absolute acceptance in absolute forgiveness

Is that what this is all about? We can't accept ourselves, so we must be forgiven instead?

where there is no loss of the integrity of self as an integral part of the all-in-all

Impossible. Either you are assimilated, or you are not.

so it's like standing on the very ground of all being and becoming as the domain of limitless possibility aka the holy of holies where God lives, so it's a type of self knowledge IN and WITH God and thus relative to a never-ending domain of true life.

In the spirit of simplicity, you are talking about eternal life. As far as my opinion is concerned, eternal life is for those who have no intention of making their life count while they have it. They want forever in which to sit on the pot and ruminate, so to speak.

I don't respect that.

So it's not like being lost in some sort of vacuous void by "passive suicide", but instead being found or rediscovered in divinity where the "kingdom of heaven" is both within and without. It is to stand in the midst of and relative to the whole of it all as a sacred being aka child of God, without getting lost. What wells up from this "space" it vital energy, and joy, and an almost childlike playful wonderment and awe, and where there is nothing we MUST do or are compelled to do ie: unconditional ground of being, it would seem that the original creative impulse and catalyst to action of some kind is the very same love by which this entire circumstance came about via an original intent with us included and in mind even beginning with the end in mind (timeless, spaceless domain).

Rephrasing what I just said.

In other words when there's nothing to do the only thing worth doing, is to love, which includes the love of God who's will is love, and love of self as other as self or to love as we are first loved by virtue of our own inclusion. Like I said it's a re-integrative, evolutionary principal of life meeting life in eternity already always, now and forevermore, and that is what it means to "enter into the kingdom of heaven".

"Love" is a strange synonym for "dodging bullets".

What you refer to is a logical conclusion of Buddhism being fundamentally nihilistic, something which Jesus repudiated when he said "what does it gain a man to gain the WHOLE WORLD, but lose his own soul" (character, passion, charm).

Show me a man who wants the whole world, and I'll show you a man who is afraid of losing.

Christianity celebrates the uniqueness and individual integrity of every person, as a part of within the framework and context of the whole family of God, which is a heavenly household framed by love, made by love and for love within which there is no limitation or constraint because it is the domain of all possibility.

Then let us retain that individual nature, and let the sum reflect the dynamic of its parts.

wildtimes
YOU CANNOT DENY THAT.

On the contrary.
This thread has completely established that the abused mind is capable of denying ANYTHING.
(It even REWARDS that denile!)
The proof is in the pudding as they say.

-Amitaba-

reply to post by Eryiedes


I find your response unnecessarily harsh. You will not make your point by slapping the opposition in the face.

reply to post by wildtimes


Sarcasm is my substitute for shamelessly spilling my invective on the forums. You can't get in trouble for sarcasm if you employ it effectively. And I've had plenty of practice.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by Eryiedes

 

I find your response unnecessarily harsh. You will not make your point by slapping the opposition in the face.

If the 'slap' were a physical slap, you might have a point...as it is, reader is at liberty to dismiss them...it is the OP premise...

Å99

logical7
Do you agree with me that if a individual/society have become immoral they would need an external unbiased correction to go back to morality?

Islam isn't unbiased and it isn't moral.
Neither is fundamentalist christianity.

AfterInfinity
I find your response unnecessarily harsh. You will not make your point by slapping the opposition in the face.

I make no appologies.
I walk it like I talk it.
I do not mince words.
I shoot from the hip.
I take no prisoners.
Once more...this thread has already established that arguements based on an appeal to reason & logic can NOT be made to this crowd...they are too frightened to even SPEAK about it. Instead (for the most part) they hid behind cliche platitudes and spouted religious rhetoric. This thread could go for 100 pages...no, 1000 pages and the replies, regardless of the different posters, would likely read identical to those of the last 27 pages.
If the opposite were true, most of them would have just answered the question politely 25 pages ago and not attempted derailment with almost every post.
It's the metaphoric equivalent of saying:

"This egg, that has been shattered into thousands of shards of shell and pulverized yolk now rotted beyond recognition, can be put back together by reason & logic alone."

There will be no "conversions" as a result of anything said or presented here.
These are just the facts talking.

-Amitaba-

reply to post by Eryiedes


I don't care WHAT your excuses are. You do not beat your kids to teach them manners, you do not abuse your pets to teach them obedience, and you do not inform your peers by disrespecting and insulting them.

Now back on topic...

AfterInfinity
I don't care WHAT your excuses are. You do not beat your kids to teach them manners, you do not abuse your pets to teach them obedience, and you do not inform your peers by disrespecting and insulting them.

That's funny...I could have sworn I just said I make no excuses.
As for the rest, had it truely been my intent to be disrespectful or insulting...you'd have already known it because every post I made would have been removed.
I will tell you what I WON'T do...I will not make excuses for any group of finger wagging child abusers trying to justify their own fears by hiding behind dogma as if it were kevlar.
I respect life too much for that.

-Amitaba-

reply to post by AfterInfinity


It's about not excluding the possibility of the love between the beloved and beloved other as the very reason by which we've come into this rich inheritance in the first place. It's about a new beginning beginning with the end in mind in recognition that everything is always new, always fresh, always forgiven already as our prior condition, but this must be proclaimed by someone, and upheld and preserved so that nothing of value can ever be lost. It's a we thing, always was, always will be, that's the realization, to not exclude God as the Spirit of Truth and Life and Love who isn't an "it" but a who with whom we are married in spirit, and to the degree that our spirit and the living Spirit of God (Objective Reality fully informed with self awareness) is co-mingled, there is the eternal life, right now where we get to have our cake and eat it too while being invited onto what amounts to a playground, to have fun and create joyful novel forms and new possibility in the spirit of what Christianity calls the Resurrected Life, and it's a spiritual enjoyment and a true liberation with absolute self acceptance and forgiveness, all the way around, because we all share the same ground of being and becoming both with one another and with "God" who is living love and infinite intelligence and newfound possibility, love and joy, the thing itself, and that's substantial. It's the basis of true life and true creativity, joy, even HUMOR.