So the Republicans are Terrorists now...

reply to post by eLPresidente

So since Ron Paul is known as the Godfather of the Tea Party, is he also now the Godfather of Domestic Terrorism?

Do you mean the same Tea Party that wanted to let the uninsured die?



Take heed young people who think Generation Opportunity has your best interest at heart when they tell you to "OPT OUT of medical insurance it's better for you".

windword
Do you mean the same Tea Party that wanted to let the uninsured die?

There you go with that hyperbole again. The framing of the question was a healthy 30 year old that has a good job and has consciously chosen not to own health insurance. Wolf then loads the question that "all of a sudden, he needs it".

That is called personal responsibility and that is exactly what Ron Paul was advocating in his response. Also it should be noted, your point would never lead to a death because insurance and receiving care are not exclusively linked.

Here is a homework assignment. Go down to your local hospital's ER. Ask the duty physician if he/she would ever turn away a patient that was in need of life/limb medical care if they did not have insurance or the means to pay for such care.

Come back with an honest answer.

JiggyPotamus
But the Republicans can shut down the government because they DISAGREE with the Democrats? And yes, the Republicans ARE acting like terrorists. They literally are holding the government hostage. This is plain for all to see. The Republicans keep lying about what is going on. The Republicans still won't bring the House to a vote. Yet everything is the Democrats fault. THEY didn't shut down the government.

You are right, everything isn't the Democrats' fault; but neither is it all the Republicans'. The Republicans made a power move with some provisions in place but they were not the ones that chose to not pass it; as much chicanery as it is.

Here is the kicker though. Since then, moves have been made to at least bring some funding online while they duke out the ACA issues (specifically the individual mandate) and the Senate has said "no dice; all or nothing)...

It would seem that I could modify your top sentence and it would be just as truthful as what you said:

"But the Democrats can keep the Government shut down because they DISAGREE with the Republicans? And yes, the Democrats ARE acting JUST AS MUCH AS terrorists as their counterparts are."

reply to post by ownbestenemy

That is called personal responsibility and that is exactly what Ron Paul was advocating in his response.

Is it personal responsibility to put off health care until your sick and in need of it? Under ACA, you can if you pay the fine, but you couldn't do that before ACA. (Precondition?)

A 30 year old is still a young person, who often believes "nothing will happen to me". "I still have plenty of time to get it together."

So is it still called personal responsibility when Generation Opportunity encourages young people and students to OPT OUT of purchasing health insurance?

Hypocrites! Plain and simple and in your face hypocrites!

windword
Is it personal responsibility to put off health care until your sick and in need of it? Under ACA, you can if you pay the fine, but you couldn't do that before ACA. (Precondition?)

Yes and to further that, it is now personal accountability! So you think things will be cheaper when people just pay the fine and in their moment of need they sign up for this system that now allows them to do at the last minute?

So is it still called personal responsibility when Generation Opportunity encourages young people and students to OPT OUT of purchasing health insurance?

I am curious, would you be happier if we were actually held to punitive measure if we have chosen to live freely and decide what we need?

They are adults. Let them chose what is best for their lives, why do you feel that you are in a better position to tell someone you don't even know what is best for them?!

reply to post by ownbestenemy


Under the ACA, one can't be denied insurance due to a pre-existing condition. At the time Ron Paul was asked that question the opposite was true. A 30 year old pregnant woman could be denied coverage for a pre-existing condition. And a baby born with congenital diseases could also be considered, by the insurance company, to have a pre-existing disease. Before the ACA, insurance companies were looking to deny children coverage for obesity as a pre-condition!

Before ACA, insurance companies could cut off coverage if you were too expensive, in the insurance companies mind. They could put annual and life time limits on coverage.

So you think things will be cheaper when people just pay the fine and in their moment of need they sign up for this system that now allows them to do at the last minute?

No. I think advising young people to just that is irresponsible and hypocritical! And, this tactic is taking advantage of the ACA, because before the ACA, that student who refused affordable was out of S# out of luck! It was too late by the time the medical needs arose.

Accepting affordable medical coverage, when it's offered, like through universities and city colleges, is more responsible than OPTING OUT, to foil the Democrats, and then finding out you need it.

windword
reply to post by eLPresidente

 

So since Ron Paul is known as the Godfather of the Tea Party, is he also now the Godfather of Domestic Terrorism?

Do you mean the same Tea Party that wanted to let the uninsured die?

Take heed young people who think Generation Opportunity has your best interest at heart when they tell you to "OPT OUT of medical insurance it's better for you".

How do you know the crowd cheering in that video is actually cheering for letting the uninsured die? Maybe they were cheering for DOCTOR Ron Paul a physician who swore to the hippocratic oath? How do you know they're all tea partiers? And how the heck does that make a tea partier a terrorist? How are you drawing these conclusions? Please explain.

That being said, If you really want to help people with pre-existing conditions, I'd like to see you first donate money to a charity insurance fund and make sure you get every last soul you can to voluntarily donate to this charity before you point a gun to my head telling me I need to pay into your fund. Because isn't that what it really boils down to? You want me to give money to the government so they can pay for your healthcare or else I get a fine and ultimately go to jail backed by the full force of the federal government?

Can you do that first? can you afford me this much courtesy in your world of theft and violence?

Oh and while you're at it, I'll happily donate to your insurance charity if I wasn't taxed so much, see? violence isn't necessary after all.

reply to post by eLPresidente


As far as I am aware, the "private" insurance industry is doing just fine. People will still be paying their insurance premiums to their carriers, not writing checks to the government.

windword


As far as I am aware, the "private" insurance industry is doing just fine.

They are doing even better then "fine" with Obama "Tax" care..............

So far in 2013 the value of the S& P health insurance index has gained 43%. Thats more than double the gains made in the broad stock market index, the S & P 500. The shares of CIGNA are up 63%, Wellpoint 47% and United Healthcare 28%. And if you go back to the early 2010 passage of ObamaCare, you will find that Obama’s sellout of the public interest has allowed the public companies the ability to raise their premiums, especially on small business, dramatically multiply their profits and send the value of their common stocks up by 200%-300%. This is bloody scandalous and should be a cause for concern even as the Republican opponents of the bill threaten the closedown of the government.

ObamaCare Enriches Only The Health Insurance Giants and Their Shareholders

I am sure that Democrats are making even more money, due to this Tax.

The WellPoint campaign, set to be formally announced Thursday by a coalition of activist investor groups, demands the resignation of two WellPoint board members, including Susan Bayh, the wife of former senator Evan Bayh (D-Ind.), for allegedly failing to oversee 'high risk political spending.'

Some of WellPoint's Owners (Stockholders) Allege Their Hired Executives Hid Political Contributions

Who are the terrorists now?

windword
reply to post by eLPresidente

 

As far as I am aware, the "private" insurance industry is doing just fine. People will still be paying their insurance premiums to their carriers, not writing checks to the government.

Ummm, is that why the Supreme Court ruled ACA lawful as a TAX? Is it or is it not a TAX? Will I or will I NOT be fined if I choose not to participate? What happens if I ignore the fine? Will I be arrested via the use of force? Come on, just admit it, I can't find one progressive or socialist to admit that they are actively willing to use force to get what they want. You can definitely be the first!

Let me make it crystal clear so you can state it for the record. Do you or do you not believe in using violence to steal from me to give to somebody else who may or may not need it?

Just to reiterate what you just said about private healthcare doing just fine, if private healthcare is fine then why does ACA even exist? You are thoroughly contradicting yourself.

You also ignored my first point, ok I'm glad you agree with me that you were drawing random conclusions that a truly logical person would never be able to do. I mean, silence IS acquiescence, right?

If you would like to address it, I'm going to quote it again for you.

How do you know the crowd cheering in that video is actually cheering for letting the uninsured die? Maybe they were cheering for DOCTOR Ron Paul a physician who swore to the hippocratic oath? How do you know they're all tea partiers? And how the heck does that make a tea partier a terrorist? How are you drawing these conclusions? Please explain.

It really concerns me how the terrorist label is being thrown about with reckless abandon, and totally inaccurately. I think the time has come that we need a Godwin type clause against the terrorist label and it's discussions.

reply to post by eLPresidente

Let me make it crystal clear so you can state it for the record. Do you or do you not believe in using violence to steal from me to give to somebody else who may or may not need it?

Whatever led you to believe that? Where does that question even come from. Talk about staying on topic!

My whole point, throughout this thread, is that the OP's indignation (GOP etal) of being called "terrorist" is hypocritical, as I've pointed out in a number of different ways. In fact, the whole anti-Obamacare campaign is steeped in hypocrisy.

Just to reiterate what you just said about private healthcare doing just fine, if private healthcare is fine then why does ACA even exist? You are thoroughly contradicting yourself.

Insurance companies ARE doing just fine. It's the patients that are suffering,

You also ignored my first point, ok I'm glad you agree with me that you were drawing random conclusions that a truly logical person would never be able to do. I mean, silence IS acquiescence, right?

If you would like to address it, I'm going to quote it again for you.



How do you know the crowd cheering in that video is actually cheering for letting the uninsured die? Maybe they were cheering for DOCTOR Ron Paul a physician who swore to the hippocratic oath? How do you know they're all tea partiers? And how the heck does that make a tea partier a terrorist? How are you drawing these conclusions? Please explain.

Frankly, that question is just too stupid to address. The answer is in the video.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Oh it was escalated to "jihad" as of tonight....Rep. Miller of California has escalated this rhetorical war to new heights. When will the white gloves come off and slap their opponent as to constitute a duel?

reply to post by windword


You would have sounded more intelligent if you just said I don't know.

I am 28 years old and am married with 2 kids. I live in Metro Detroit and along with my wife make ~75k a year. My family is under my health insurance plan provided through my employer and it costs us about $230 a month to insure the 4 of us. Its not great insurance but its not terrible either, we have reasonable out of pocket costs and the cap is palleatable.

I put our information into an ACA cost calculator and it turns out for the garbage bronze plan it would cost about $460 a month, with an actuarial value of 60%. This means they'll cover 60% until the cap is met. What that cap is i have no idea but more on that later. This plan is described as the minimum amount of insurance we will be required to carry.

The silver plan is the next tier up and im assuming would be about on par with what we have now. It would cost my wife and i about $590 a month with a 70% actuarial value with a cap on out of pocket costs at $12,700 a year. Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that the cap for the bronze plan would be significantly higher, and with the plan only covering 60% of out of pocket costs its next to useless making the silver plan at almost 3x the cost of what we pay now for equivelant coverage our only real option should my boss tell us to sit and spin and go get Obama insurance.

I have tried to remain open minded amidst the unbelievable amount of misinformation and partisan arguments by both sides, but you cant argue with the numbers. My middle class (at best) family is expected to come up with the equivalant of a Mercedes lease payment every month for insurance? We both work full time. Im in college. It just isnt feasible.

Like i said, i am trying to sift through the BS and make sense of it all but the numbers are right there. The figures listed INCLUDE a government subsidy of almost 2k. Hopefully some of the staunch ACA supporters on here can tell me how stupid and wrong i am because my employer has no incentive to maintain our healthcare plan now that he can axe our insurance guilt free knowing these exchanges are out there.

kff.org...

windword
reply to post by eLPresidente

 

Let me make it crystal clear so you can state it for the record. Do you or do you not believe in using violence to steal from me to give to somebody else who may or may not need it?

Whatever led you to believe that? Where does that question even come from. Talk about staying on topic!

My whole point, throughout this thread, is that the OP's indignation (GOP etal) of being called "terrorist" is hypocritical, as I've pointed out in a number of different ways. In fact, the whole anti-Obamacare campaign is steeped in hypocrisy.

Just to reiterate what you just said about private healthcare doing just fine, if private healthcare is fine then why does ACA even exist? You are thoroughly contradicting yourself.

Insurance companies ARE doing just fine. It's the patients that are suffering,

You also ignored my first point, ok I'm glad you agree with me that you were drawing random conclusions that a truly logical person would never be able to do. I mean, silence IS acquiescence, right?

If you would like to address it, I'm going to quote it again for you.



How do you know the crowd cheering in that video is actually cheering for letting the uninsured die? Maybe they were cheering for DOCTOR Ron Paul a physician who swore to the hippocratic oath? How do you know they're all tea partiers? And how the heck does that make a tea partier a terrorist? How are you drawing these conclusions? Please explain.

Frankly, that question is just too stupid to address. The answer is in the video.

Sorry that you have to hear it from me but you just proved my point for me in my entire last post. To be honest, I thought your response was going to be at least a little better. I knew you weren't going to answer the questions though and thanks for supporting my arguments.


This is one thing I do like about progressive/socialists, after their initial statement or argument, there is no coherent argument that follows a rebuttal.

Blue_Jay33
It really concerns me how the terrorist label is being thrown about with reckless abandon, and totally inaccurately. I think the time has come that we need a Godwin type clause against the terrorist label and it's discussions.

Add suicide bomber to the list. Leftist radio talk show host Stephanie Miller is now claiming that the GOP wants to bomb children, because they're suicide bombers.

A lot of people are confused about this "Government Shutdown". The mainstream media isn't really helping either. Basically, a law was passed and signed...the PROPER WAY the constitution has set up for passing laws. The Republicans didn't want this law, they don't want ANY healthcare reform for the USA citizens. They'd rather spend money on wars and private interest groups. and they are upset and trying to rally support and started a huge misinformation campaign to make everyone scared of the law before it even started (Was supposed to be Oct 1st). Didn't work...millions were not in the streets protesting this law that the majority knew HELPED THEM. It's HEALTHCARE REFORM...hello. Their final attempt, The Republicans threaten to not do their jobs (that our tax dollars pay for) and to not pass a budget unless the President took the law out.

That's called extortion.

Basically holding the country hostage. Passports are not being processed, Travel Visas , Parks are closed, Museums are closed, National Monuments, many federal employees are at home, Veteran's facilities are all shutdown...because the Republicans were so hard headed about taking out Obamacare. Which again, was a LAW, CONSTITUTIONALLY PASSED and made into law.

This temper tantrum could actually cost the country more money...Billions, like in 1995-96 when the Government shutdown. The country lost Billions of dollars...that could have been spent on many things to improve our country.

The news keeps saying "they can't come to an agreement, neither side will negotiate. What's there to negotiate? WHy is the news playing dumb on this? The Democrats just want to do their jobs and pass the budget but the Republicans REFUSE until Obamacare is gone. It's like a hostage crisis...take it by force if laws and enough votes don't work right? Well how does that saying go? "Never negotiate with terrorists".

I think the TP is more like the Nazi Party in pre WW2. I was a republican from Nixon to Bush. I was an active Southern Baptist from birth to age 30. Then in the 1980's I saw changes in my church and my chosen political party that I could not be a part of anymore. My little church became a mega church and all about the beautiful building and if you did not believe in the Rapture and The Trinity you will not prosper and deservedly. And that is not hyperbole. Then I started to hear about something called the "Religious Right" and we began actively inserting our beliefs in politics and sending missionaries all over the world. The republican party, instead of being fiscal hawks, became anti-social hawks(wars on drugs, abortion, homosexuals), and war hawks. Next, they will be burning books. Oh wait, I think they already ban books, then burning will be next.

I have reached the point where I want a default to happen and look at the stunned faces on big government fanatics who abuse their country.Lets see if they start rounding up and arresting political parties who are against big government to prove how sick and crazy government can get.It is alos the responsibility for the President of the U.S.to lead the nation out of fighting,not into fighting.Obama is the one who is suppose to work with Congress and sit down and compromise a deal.That keeps the President from becoming abusive with to much power.