Did Abraham ever really exist?

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

If you go back far enough we ALL share a common ancestor.
That doesn't prove Abraham existed. It doesn't prove Adam and Eve existed.
And considering that those folks are all from the same part of the world,
the common ancestor could have been anyone at any time.

godlover25
it is your own loss that you view the most important piece of literature in humanities library, the Revelation of God Almighty Himself, as nothing more than some dusty old books by "bronze age shepherds".

godlover25
The Bible is the most trustworthy historical account we have,

Oh duuuuuude .... God did NOT write the bible. It was written by MEN. It is full of errors and fables and myths. It has been proven that big parts of the Old Testament are 'borrowed' from other cultures and 'freely adapted' by the Jews making it their own.

- Adam and Eve didn't exist. That is a creation myth borrowed by the Jews from the Summerians and freely adapted.
- Noahs Ark didn't happen. That is another myth borrowed by the Jews from the Summerians and freely adapted. And historical documentation from around the world shows other cultures flourished and went uninterrupted by the alleged 'world flood' that killed everyone except Noah.
- DNA and genetics prove that the Noahs Ark fable couldnt' have happened. 6 procreating adults couldn't repopulate the earth in the amount of time given .. and they couldn't do so with such a small gene pool. It couldn't happen.
- The Psalms. David didnt' write them all for God. Many come from the Egyptian temples which pre-date David. They were songs to the Sun God written by Akenaten.
- Genesis creation myth ... two different accounts that contradict each other.
- There is absolutely no evidence to support the notion that the Jews were slaves in Egypt for 400 years or that 2 million of them (or any large number of them) were living in the desert for 40 years. NONE. Not even so much as a shard of pottery which the desert would have preserved. And not one single mention of it in the Egyptian history chronicles (which were very well kept).
- The bible puts the earth age at around 6000 years old. That's absurd. That's been proven wrong.

There isn't much of God in the Old Testament at all. There is a lot of humans saying what they think God is and a lot of humans claiming to know what God wants ... (and then going out and slaughtering mass numbers of their enemies because God supposedly told them to). But until the New Testament ... I"m seeing lots of error and human interjection and not a whole lot of God at all. (Daniel and Isaiah maybe ... )

FlyersFan
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

If you go back far enough we ALL share a common ancestor.
That doesn't prove Abraham existed. It doesn't prove Adam and Eve existed.
And considering that those folks are all from the same part of the world,
the common ancestor could have been anyone at any time.

Nice red herring. We aren't talking about going back far enough, and we are all related. we are talking about DNA testing 100% proves Jews and Arabs came from the SAME y chromosome at exactly the time the Bible says Abraham lived. So it can't be anyone, and it can't be any time. Unless all Jews come from a non-Jew, which is logically impossible, then the person was a Jew, not just anyone, and it had to happen about several thousand years ago, exactly when the Bible claims Abraham lived. Maybe you should try reading the source I provided before you comment.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


100% or 70% Jews and 50% Arabs from area as reported in post before?

godlover25
www.leaderu.com...

Circular logic. It says Moses wrote the books because the books say Moses did. And it says that the New Testament authors say that Moses wrote them so that's some kind of proof that Moses wrote them. OF COURSE they are going to say that ... because that's what the books claim and they bought it. They are confusing 'tradition' with 'historical fact'. Moses didn't write the old testament.

creation.com...

A quote from this site of yours -

The most likely explanation is that Adam, Noah, Shem, etc. each wrote an account of the events that occurred either right before or during his lifetime, and Moses, under the infallible inspiration of the Holy Spirit, selected, compiled, and edited these to produce Genesis in its present cohesive form.

- There was no such thing as Adam and Eve.
- Noah and Shem ... no world wide destructive flood ...
- There is no proof that the Jews were slaves in Egypt or that they lived in the desert for 40 years.

In fact ... the scientific and historical proof DISPROVES those things.

www.apologeticspress.org...

- It tries (AND FAILS) to explain the error of future events inserted into the books.
(obviously it was written in the future and not during Moses time)
- It tries to use the bible to prove the bible correct about camels being domesticated in the time of Moses and Abraham. That's circular logic. The rest of the camel information was pretty interesting.
- I found the Philistines argument to be weak.

It asks ... DOES IT REALLY MATTER WHO WROTE THE PENTATEUCH?
(and then again uses circular logic to say that the bible says Moses wrote it so that's proof)
The answer is ... HELL YES it matters!

People are putting their lives and souls into believing something is from God ..
It doesn't get any more important than that. So yes, it matters.

OccamsRazor04
Maybe you should try reading the source I provided before you comment.

I did. I stand by my statement. People from the same part of the world, if you go back far enough, will have a common ancestor. That's interesting and all, but that doesn't prove the Abraham story. Sorry ... but it doesn't.

solongandgoodnight
reply to post by covertpanther

 

Things always seem to get so personal. I appreciate your research and try to approach it as unbiased as I can even though I am a Christian. But the small jabs from BOTH sides really need to stop. To often we come into a discussion with an agenda instead of looking at the evidence without biased. And yes I'm talking about both sides as I've seen it through this whole thread.

My friend, it is not about jabs, and I deffinately ddo not have an agenda, as I said I really dont care about religion or christianity, or who believes in one of millions of different gods..

I care that my beloved human species is blindly following stupid men and women, and their worship from 2000+ years ago. There are MILLIONS of "gods", there is ONE CREATOR. That which created the universe, the galaxies, the planets, stars, your god, his god, her god, their god and everything on Earth.

God is a person-consciousness who wants everybody to bow down and never reach their SUPREME states of consiousness (as I said in my previous post, Kundalini raching its highest state of consciousness). It demands you live your life like this and that, and sacrifices, animals or humans, it doesnt matter..

If anyone is delivering "jabs", its the blinded indivudals jabbing their highest state of consciousness, their Soul. By ignoring it, and woshiping something that is external to you, that you cannot have contact with or commune with. Why give up your supreme state for a being who is a "jelous god" and demands so much?

If you dont like jabs, Christianity has caused many wars, slaughters and burning of opposing faiths. If you dont like agendas; Christianity was an agenda to begin with, and look how powerful the church/Vati(cant) is now.

Open your eyes to actuality, and stop feeding off the reality they want you to believe, for the past 2000 years.. Regardless of which god you unknowingly wish to worship; WE ARE ALL HUMAN BEINGS, ALL CREATED from the SAME ORIGIN. That is the ONLY thing that matters. Religion just confuses, divides, starts fights, and wastes spiritual life on Earth.

Be your OWN god, and worship your highest state of being, work on being the best you, and stop wasting your Sundays preying to something you dont really know much about. Because everyone else is doing, does that make it right to do? If god told Abraham to jump off a cliff, will everyone else follow?

Wake up to yourself, the church put you to sleep in the first place

reply to post by FlyersFan


Im have thoroughly read your post and links.

I have too many words to type atm. Lets just say, after reading your post i also read replies. You should't ignore Dashen.

You are drawing too many conclusions from very weak assumptions. I say weak because you have not considered other views that directly oppose yours.

Dashen has been speaking more sense than OP.

Sorry but as a person who has studied this my whole life, I realize that you are not up to date with your info on Abraham!

No offence bro, just telling you how it is!

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

OccamsRazor04
Well, one thing the bible is correct about and is provable, and has been proven, is that Jews and Arabs share a common father. The Bible claims they are both descended from Abraham. They are both descended from the same man. If not Abraham, who? The time frame is perfectly in line with biblical accounts as well.

More than 70% of Jewish men and half of the Arab men whose DNA was studied inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors who lived in the region within the last few thousand years.

news.sciencemag.org...

Not quite!

In “The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses,” published in December in the online journal Genome Biology and Evolution, Elhaik says he has proved that Ashkenazi Jews’ roots lie in the Caucasus — a region at the border of Europe and Asia that lies between the Black and Caspian seas — not in the Middle East. They are descendants, he argues, of the Khazars, a Turkic people who lived in one of the largest medieval states in Eurasia and then migrated to Eastern Europe in the 12th and 13th centuries. Ashkenazi genes, Elhaik added, are far more heterogeneous than Ostrer and other proponents of the Rhineland Hypothesis believe. Elhaik did find a Middle Eastern genetic marker in DNA from Jews, but, he says, it could be from Iran, not ancient Judea.

Elhaik writes that the Khazars converted to Judaism in the eighth century, although many historians believe that only royalty and some members of the aristocracy converted. But widespread conversion by the Khazars is the only way to explain the ballooning of the European Jewish population to 8 million at the beginning of the 20th century from its tiny base in the Middle Ages, Elhaik says.


Read more: forward.com...

Did Abraham ever really exist?

ASK : Zecharia Sitchin

windword
Not quite!

In “The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses,” published in December in the online journal Genome Biology and Evolution, Elhaik says he has proved that Ashkenazi Jews’ roots lie in the Caucasus — a region at the border of Europe and Asia that lies between the Black and Caspian seas — not in the Middle East. They are descendants, he argues, of the Khazars, a Turkic people who lived in one of the largest medieval states in Eurasia and then migrated to Eastern Europe in the 12th and 13th centuries.

Elhaik's paper refuted as bad science based on erroneous assumptions here:

If we think of the Elhaik study in another context, consider this: If one did a genetic study of African-Americans and white Americans and found that both of them share 30% of their ancestry with the British, one would not be correct in concluding that African-Americans have their origins in London.

Yet the author has seemingly made this leap of logic.

This points to the sad tragedy that due to an obsessive interest in the “true” origins of the Jewish people, all sorts of scientific norms are discarded in favor of embracing any wild theory.

That Elhaik, not previously an expert on Jewish genetics or history, can publish an academic paper “proving” the origins of the Jews, is evidence of this tendency. (Source)

reply to post by adjensen


The Jerusalem Post is your source? Really!??

combatmaster
I realize that you are not up to date with your info on Abraham!

Dude .... what part of Abraham (allegedly) lived in the year 2000 BC and the stories weren't written until 500 BC tells you that the stories are reliable??

windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

The Jerusalem Post is your source? Really!??

Why not?

Try reading the article instead of complaining about the source.

reply to post by adjensen


I did read the extreemly biased article, filled with ad hominem insults. How about you read the DATA , before jumping to conclusions?

windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

I did read the extreemly biased article, filled with ad hominem insults. How about you read the DATA , before jumping to conclusions?

I'm not a geneticist, so there's not much point to my reading his data.

reply to post by adjensen


You're not, but you're still willing to accept propaganda from a site that is self interested in promoting themselves as the "chosen people" and who refer to studies that refute their uniqueness with quotes like this:

neo-Nazi websites to radical left-wing blogs, as proof that the Jewish people are not a distinct “people” and that their origins are in the Caucuses, not the Middle East.

And this:

The Khazar theory for the origin of the Jews was invented by the womanizing communist intellectual ............

And:

Based on his intellectual exercise, which was grounded in nothing more than whimsical thinking,

adjensen

windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

I did read the extreemly biased article, filled with ad hominem insults. How about you read the DATA , before jumping to conclusions?

I'm not a geneticist, so there's not much point to my reading his data.

No maybe your not, but you are desperate to prove a point that holds no truth.

Desperation is a sad act, shows inner confusing and possible doubt in one's self.

Just relax, no one is forcing you to keep coming here to post and pretend you know everything about the subject at hand - which is ABRAHAM existing or not - has nothing to do with you being a geneticist lol.

reply to post by windword


What are you talking about? The Jerusalem Post is a generally well respected newspaper, it's not some crazy conspiracy site.

covertpanther
No maybe your not, but you are desperate to prove a point that holds no truth.

And what are you talking about? Read the thread -- I weighed in on the "Abraham existed" thing back on page two or something and said that I had faith that he did, but knew of no evidence one way or the other, and neither would I expect there to be any.

I'm not desperate to prove anything -- I couldn't care less if you think Abraham existed or not.