Did Abraham ever really exist?

Wow, takes me back to my theology days with all the information and disinformation being dragged up.

From all of my studies on the matter, the original stories were exactly that, stories. They were meant to give hope to a people who had lost everything and were seeking meaning in their lives. However, in saying that these stories attempted to accurately draw on historical truths. Whether that be the characters, the ideals or simply the backgrounds to the main plot.

In considering the story of Abraham you focus on the meanings of the characters and the trials they had to overcome. Abraham means 'many' or 'father of many' and thus can be construed as being a reference to a single person or group of people who preceded the Jews in their captivity. Heralding back to a time when things were also bad and they overcame their enemies. The story of Abraham gives them a starting point, a reason to be, a hope for the future, an identity as a people that was surely lacking at the time of the writing of the stories.

In saying that there are facts and evidence emerging over the last 80 odd years as more of the Mari tablets are deciphered that is verifying the accounts in some of these stories more accurately than ever before. If you read about 'Mari' and the 20,000 clay tablets found there by archaeologist's a lot of evidence is being drawn from it that helps give a clearer picture of the times that we are talking about when we talk about Abraham. This includes the fact that those writing down the stories had to draw on what little they knew of the places and times they were writing about and may have inadventently filled in the gaps themselves. Mari was the city of King Zimri Lim that was later destroyed by King Hammurabi that people have already referred too.

Things like the fact that based on the tablets found in the Palace of Zimri Lim, Abraham more than likely came from Sumerian Ur and not Chaldean Ur.

That some of the names of people, particularly the Amorites in the stories of Abraham appear in the Mari tablets and suggests Abraham and his people were Amorites themselves. The Amorites left Sumerian Ur around the time indicated in the bible story and migration caused a destabilisation and fall of the city in about 1900BC. This better fits the Abraham story.

The only direction Abraham could go was north. East were the Elamites, south was the sea, west was desert and the places he went to are mentioned in the clay tablets.

There have also been tablets found at Nuzi that corroborate historical cultural similarities to the Abraham stories.

Now in saying this there are no tablets talking about Abraham specifically but there is enough historical information to verify most of the people, places and give reasons for his movements in those tablets. If you accept that Abraham was an Amorite then the historical records talk about his peoples actions directly but not Abraham specifically.

Ironically, whether Abraham was a real person or a people as in the Amorites or even an ideal, the fact remains that his/their, its inspiration exists to this day and still continues to provide guidance and support for a great many people around the world.

The fact remains that a lot of tablets remain undeciphered or are waiting their turn so maybe its just a matter of time before something turns up? Especially now that it seems they are looking in the right places and times.

You don't know me. As far as I know, I've never responded to any of your posts before the previous one. So how can you make statements about what I will and won't believe? I just want compelling evidence first. All I am getting from you is this arrogant attitude about your beliefs which you refuse to elaborate on and insist that I wouldn't understand. In fact for someone supposedly so enlightened, you sure do show a lot of arrogance. I thought enlightened people are supposed to shed their arrogance?

You've still yet to produce any credibility about yourself as well. Actually, everything I'm reading from you is destroying your credibility. All talk and no substance. Maybe you should become a politician. "I'm right, you're wrong and don't expect to learn why."

combatmaster
You are one of those people that will live and die and never really know the truth about Abraham specifically. So run along now...

This is what I'm talking about, all arrogance and very condescending despite having never talked to me before. Grow up.

NewAgeMan
Jesus, during the "lost years" (from pre-pubescent puberty to about the age of 30 or at least 20 years) might very well have traveled the trade routes

Similarities between Christ and Buddha teachings
Christianity seems like it is a hybrid between Judaism and Buddhism. The Magi who traveled to Jesus birth prove that Buddhism and Zoroastrianism thoughts freely flowed throughout the area Jesus lived. They easily could have influenced the people of Jesus time period.

reply to post by Krazysh0t


Im sorry Krazysh0t.... My emotions might have gotten the better of me in my post to you.

The reason I was taken aback by your comment is because I have studied this my whole life. I have studied more than half of the mishnayos and I have been doing 'daf yom' for the last 20 or so years (since i was about 8 or 9). If you dont understand what this is, im not gonna explain its too long but it is mostly in Aramaic. Original texts unchanged for thousands of years in most cases.

When i hear english speaking individuals who have never come across these texts and these people make statements based on only what they choose as historical evidence then i am shocked at the confidence and outright ignorance that resonates in such people.

What im saying is that: I would never try to correct a Chinese man in his own language until i have learned that language fully myself.

Learn Aramaic, study the texts and their original meanings as they were meant to have been understood through specific languages (not modern western i.e. greek, latin, english) and then go back to theories and see it the way i do.

Please accept my apology as I now understand not to make it personal. Sorry bro

reply to post by BobAthome


If the the Stele in wrong, why do you cite it as proof of the existence of the Biblical Israel? What does this Stele have to offer in the way of proof of the existence of the mythological father of the Jewish People. How do we know that the Biblical Israel isn't a copy of some other's people's history, plagiarized and adopted to give a people credibility, where they otherwise had none?

Why doesn't the Bible record the near extinction of Israel and it's miraculous come back from obscurity?

reply to post by FlyersFan

Text Did Abraham ever really exist? The Old Testament puts Abraham having lived at about 2,000 BC. The story wasn't written down until the post-exile period around 500 B.C. So, 1500 years after the alleged events of Abraham, the story is finally solidified. (That is supposedly a reliable eyewitness account, right?) And it turns out that the alleged historical events discussed around the story of Abraham couldn't have happened.

If a religion can't survive the light of truth ... it is unworthy of consideration.

@FlyersFan

I can see from the very introduction of your thread that you are a bible basher.

I don’t know your sources for your information and I do realize that most people have a variety of sources for their dates etc. but whenever a scholar gives a spiel he or she will cite their sources for the record. I see nothing of this in your blog even though you are not a biblical scholar.

My source for most all of my dates and reliable biblical information comes from the Jewish Timeline Encyclopedia. Most secular scholars will not accept biblical sources simply because they are not orientated in the biblical avenue of acceptance. Naturally the secularists are anti religious or will not accept any biblical scholar’s findings. They either suppress that information and overwhelm it with secular literature or ignore it. They do have the advantage as over ninety percent of the sciences are secularists or atheists. This naturally spills over into almost all of the universities in this and other countries.

Abraham was born in 1948 After Adam which was 1813 BCE. He died in 2123 After Adam which was 1638 BCE. This puts his life time at 175 years.

Moses was born 2368 After Adam which was 1393 BCE. He died in 2488 After Adam which was 1273 BCE. That puts his life time at 120 years.

Moses wrote Torah 2448 After Adam which was 1313 BCE. Moses was 80 years old when he wrote Torah and expounded oral Torah. This would show that Torah was written 500 years after Abraham was born and 1,313 years before Jesus.

What records were used by Moses is not known to us today but one thing to remember is that all written history was at one time nothing but oral tradition. As Moses wrote Torah, he most certainly must have had both written and oral traditions for his understanding.

So according to the Jewish Timeline Encyclopedia I place both written and oral Torah at about 3,326 years old. That places Torah at 1,313 years before Jesus and not the 500 years as you support.

I am interested in your sources for your posting as you have done. Actually "If any non fictional literature can't survive the light of truth it is unworthy of consideration."

reply to post by Seede


Moses didn't write the Torah. As is stated in Deuteronomy 32, Moses sang. In other words, what Moses taught wasn't written down, but was passed down through oral tradition. The first examples of the written Hebrew language don't appear until around 1000 BC. That's a lot of oral history to write!

windword
reply to post by BobAthome

 

If the the Stele in wrong, why do you cite it as proof of the existence of the Biblical Israel? What does this Stele have to offer in the way of proof of the existence of the mythological father of the Jewish People. How do we know that the Biblical Israel isn't a copy of some other's people's history, plagiarized and adopted to give a people credibility, where they otherwise had none?

Why doesn't the Bible record the near extinction of Israel and it's miraculous come back from obscurity?

edit on 27-9-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

"Why doesn't the Bible record the near extinction of Israel" so when God says, i will rip the 10 Kingdoms from u,???????

,nevermind, your like the kid who never did his homework,, but thought hey i can fake anything

FlyersFan

NewAgeMan
Jesus, during the "lost years" (from pre-pubescent puberty to about the age of 30 or at least 20 years) might very well have traveled the trade routes

Similarities between Christ and Buddha teachings
Christianity seems like it is a hybrid between Judaism and Buddhism. The Magi who traveled to Jesus birth prove that Buddhism and Zoroastrianism thoughts freely flowed throughout the area Jesus lived. They easily could have influenced the people of Jesus time period.

From what I can tell in looking deeply at Jesus, his teachings and his Great Work, it's not just Judaism and Buddhism that resonate with his philosophy and metaphysics, but also Hindu (Atma and Brahma are one), Greek thought (including the art of debate and the supreme value of Virtue), and ancient Egyptian understanding, along with the sacred science and cosmology/astrology of the Magi, which combine threads from Babylonian and Persian (Zoroastrian) thinking and traditions.

There is also every indication that Jesus made a return to the region while retaining correspondence with John the Baptist while he was away (who knew the timetable by which he would return), and when he made his return to Jewish society (probably had a hard time fitting in as a child - teased for being a bastard child and maybe for looking different ie: they were under Roman occupation..), he was armed to the teeth in every which way (except physically) and carrying with him a precise schedule by which his Great Work in resonance with the divine order, would be realized. "My hour has not yet come" he said, slipping deftly through the crowd who were getting ready to stone him for blasphemy.

There is no other way to really understand and come to grips with the historical Jesus than to recognize that something profound took place during the lost years whereby Jesus made a great return to Jewish society, during his three year ministry circling Jerusalem in his travels through Judea and Galilee and then eventually heading straight into the teeth and the belly of the beast (Jerusalem, corrupted) only to be liberated from the snare and trap which he himself appears to have set for himself in collusion with John the Baptist.

He (and John) really let them have it, big time, in a clash with evil powers and principalities at all levels including the very dynamic and root of human evil lurking in the heart of man.

It's been said that "the problem of evil" is one that philosophers have wrestled with since time immemorial, but Jesus solved it.

It's extraordinary.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


"teased for being a bastard child " only if he had a big mouthed brother or sister. so no probably be more like some political rival,, digging dirt,,, never changes,,

BobAthome
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

"teased for being a bastard child " only if he had a big mouthed brother or sister. so no probably be more like some political rival,, digging dirt,,, never changes,,

Consider however the notion of an unrelentingly teased and abused child, making a return to Jewish society after 20 years, armed to the teeth to do spiritual warfare, while anticipating being teased and mocked, again.

31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”

39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

John 8

“We are not illegitimate children”...

Ouch!

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Lo and behold - the Ram (caught up in the thicket?).

The Day of the Cross


Isn't that trippy?

Not so trippy, really. If you lived on the moon, you would see this phenomena once a month! The moon is much smaller than the earth, and is eclipsed by the earth every new moon, when the moon falls into the earth's shadow. The same phenomena would occur for every person who died during a full moon, millions of people!

reply to post by NewAgeMan


well i guess it comes full circle or down too this statement,,2000 odd years ago,,,

and the only person ,born of a women,, too say

" Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Then took they up stones to cast at him:

the question is are we still picking up stones?

BobAthome
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

the question is are we still picking up stones?

Absolutely. Some things never change. It would be very very funny if it wasn't so sad, so it's only funny and joyfilled from Jesus' own perspective and POV which we might be well served to try on just to see what it looks like. And we all have experience at some level with the phenomenon of bullying, so in the final analysis you're either the bully, or, the one who's being bullied but for all the right reasons ie: for righteousness' sake.

Therefore, in the final analysis it IS very very funny, on the other side of the sorrow and suffering and shame and weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. It's a question of legitimate suffering vs. illegitimate suffering whereby "neurosis is always the substitute for legitimate suffering" so it IS a type of joke told by God through Jesus at the expense of the devil within "heaping white hot coals upon our heads" (Proverbs).

And there are those among us who are brought to repentance at the realization or epiphany, and those who's hearts are hardened even more, and made full bullies looking for stones to pick up, while Jesus states "my hour has not yet come" (knowing something that they do not) and slips right through their very hands, unmarred.

God that Jesus let me tell you, he was not only a Magus, but a type of playful comedian of the very highest order who no one could lay a hand on until it was by his own permission, and at that point they had another thing coming... Oh God, it's just too much, so wonderful, so magnificent, so liberating, so powerful, and so very very funny!

Way to go Jesus, the one who was teased and abused, twice. You sure got the last laugh, big time!

reply to post by NewAgeMan

reply to post by windword


It doesn't line up the way it did, both "fore and aft" so to speak very often, in a lunar eclipse rising over the horizon mid afternoon, under the feet of Virgo at Passover Preparation Day by the lunar calendar and as seen from Jerusalem during the governorship of Pontias Pilate while from the POV of the moon-earth eclipse (from the moon) centered directly and perfectly at the "heart" of the Ram, Aries, preceeded (by the half-life) about 33 years prior by the conjunction of Jupiter and Venus, and nine months prior to that by the "triple crowing" triple retrograde conjunction of Regulus by Jupiter.

Full Documentary.

“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. 32 There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true.

John 5:31

And he obviously knew that at some level they also knew this to be true. Probably spent a great deal of time thinking about how to deal with these people and their rebuttals, objections, teasing and abuse. So he's giving them the gears here over something that they cannot deny. Otherwise he'd only be testifying to and of himself, so he's pointing to something that they would recognize as valid, to silence them.


Best Regards,

NAM

P.S. See my avatar-background for additional clues.. although the background starfield in this case is Aquarius, as a continued messianic hope for a new age of both spirit and reason and thus of Christ consciousness come of age, at last.

reply to post by BobAthome


What is that pic supposed to mean, can you clarify a little more, thanks. NAM

Oh I get it, an illustration of the woman laughing with full self expression and the bully looking on - that's FUNNY! LOL

Thanks. You "grok".

reply to post by FlyersFan


Abraham rebuilt Kaba

IF Abraham existed, which there doesn't seem to be any credible evidence that he did, then he was one sick puppy Supposedly he tried to murder his child and sacrifice him to his God. Voices told him to ... and voices told him not to do it at the last minute.

Ummmmmmm

voices ???

Do you hear them ? Did Jesus hear them ,too?

As a matter of fact He didn't slay his son because the knife was not cutting under the order of god. No because he refused or reconsidered or ....

I am amazed why you just stick to the lie which says Abrahahm is not ancestor of Muhammad AS while Isac is ancestor of Jesus and Moses ,too?

Is that because you pursue particular agenda or you didn't know ?

reply to post by NewAgeMan


ummmm she's not laughing,, woman laughing,,,she's ,, ok,, ummm yes,, she's laughing,, ha,,haw,, hah, ,,

To me 'Abraham' first and foremost is a 'human dynamo', a fictitious character of a fictitious book - which of course still contains some truth if you are able to detect it between the huge fairytale parts.

Potential eye-opener: www.thegreatestlieevertold.co.uk...