Did Abraham ever really exist?

godlover25
reply to post by peter vlar

 

Even the link I supplied agrees that the end of the Pentateuch was written by Joshua as it records Moses death, and I did not say Moses did not write MOST of it, I'm just saying it's likely that he had input from his brother Aaron as he was very close with him, and I'm sure through the years the Scribes who copied it fixed any grammatical errors and polished up words here and there, but the foundation of it and probably at least 90% of it was written by Moses hand.

That's a lot of maybes and probablies for something that you tout as fact. Conjecture , supposition and hyperbole don't magically turn into facts on faith alone. And just for the Record, the bible not being considered a historically accurate record doesn't take anything away from the message of the book does it? It may bother you on a personal level but at the end of your day does my
Opinion on the legitimacy of Bronze Age shepherds holy books change much?

reply to post by peter vlar


No but it is your own loss that you view the most important piece of literature in humanities library, the Revelation of God Almighty Himself, as nothing more than some dusty old books by "bronze age shepherds".

It is much more more than that, but obviously nothing I say will convince you - my suggestion, seek God Himself and ask Him personally...

If you prefer life without God, that is a sad decision and it hurts me thinking about people who walk through life with no hope and no faith, but it's your decision, and I and others will be here with open arms waiting for you when you're ready to learn, and so will God.

God bless.

godlover25
reply to post by peter vlar

 

No but it is your own loss that you view the most important piece of literature in humanities library, the Revelation of God Almighty Himself, as nothing more than some dusty old books by "bronze age shepherds".

It is much more more than that, but obviously nothing I say will convince you - my suggestion, seek God Himself and ask Him personally...

If you prefer life without God, that is a sad decision and it hurts me thinking about people who walk through life with no hope and no faith, but it's your decision, and I and others will be here with open arms waiting for you when you're ready to learn, and so will God.

God bless.

Dont feel sorry for me. I don't need god in my life to be kind and courteous to others or treat them with respect. You think the bible is the most importnt work, Hindus would Argue that the Vedas which preceed the Talmud and Torah by a couple of millennia would be more important. Me, ill take some good old Bukowski or H.S. Thompson over the bible any day. I grew up in a very Irish Catholic family, was an altar boy for years went to Catholic school as well as church 6 days a week. Ive had enough mythology to last me a lifetime. That doesn't make me a bad person. It just means that I live a life that involves empirical evidence and the scientific method. It works for me, obviously a life of faith is what works best for you. I'm willing to get if we weren't cutting each others throats over the historicity of ancient manuscripts we would be able to find some sort of middle ground.

FlyersFan

godlover25
I can link a bunch of websites proving the exact opposite of what you're claiming, that in fact Abraham DID exist, exactly as described in the Torah.

Then post it. If you've got information that proves Abraham existed ... post it.
Otherwise ... just saying that you have it means nothing.

Abraham (supposedly) lived 2000 BC.
The stories about him were written 1500 years later. 500 BC.

It's not possible for a story to be accurate when passed on by word of mouth for 1500 years.
Heck ... we can't even get a straight story on what happened in Benghazi a year ago,
let alone something that happened 1500 years ago. Ya' know???

.

A closed mind is exactly that. I have read the whole thread and no where has anyone proven Abraham did not exist.

Was the Word of God realy written my man?

godlover25
The Bible is the most trustworthy historical account we have,

Except, none of historical accounts in bible are verifiable...

Bible is fiction book of folklore tales of its time, nothing more. Today we know that parts of it were copied fro Mesopotamia, but they are turned into myth and tales rather then accurate historical facts.

What do you know about council at Nicea and Constantin I? How is this emperor connected to bible today?

fireyaguns

A closed mind is exactly that. I have read the whole thread and no where has anyone proven Abraham did not exist.

Was the Word of God realy written my man?

On contraty, there is no simple evidence that he did exist. If you will use that logic, prove me that unicorns or minotaurs do not exist. I saw it in movie and books.

And yes, look at example with even start of bible and contradiction, pointing to 2 different authors on first 2 chapters. Even biblical scholars agree to it...

dashen

FlyersFan

dashen
Do a little research, speak less from ignorance, and the historical evidence backs ups the Bible.

I DID do research. There is no historical evidence that Abraham existed.
You claim that historical evidence backs up the Abraham account? Then prove it.
Post the information here. Otherwise .... speak less from ignorance. (to use your quote).

Excuse me, do you Believe that Hammurabbi ever existed? or do you contest that too?

It appears that Hammurabi did exist, since he's named on the Babylonian Kings List - first dynasty - and there are many works of art depicting him and many written records of him and his works.

There is one record of the works of Abraham.

Abraham came from "Ur of the Chaldees." or Ur Kasidim.

Chaldeans didn't live in the area until 500 BC or so. It's highly unlikely that Abraham, if he did exist, was a contemporary with either Hammurabi (died 1200 years before the arrival of the Chaldeans) or Nimrod (said to have built the city of Accad - Akkad - which is associated with Sargon the Great, 1600 years before the Chaldeans entered the scene.)
Sargon may post-date Akkad, though. But I don't think there exists a valid argument that Nimrod, if he existed, was contemporary with the Chaldean rule of Ur.

The Bible and Torah tell many things about Nimrod that we today know to be false. Back when the tale was written, people had no idea of the span of centuries that existed between the origins of the several cities Nimrod was reported to have founded.

If you have any actual evidence for the existence of Abraham, other than your own faith (which, BTW, I certainly don't mean to impugn,) then please share it.

Harte

windword
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

Very interesting topic FF! Starred and flagged.

Personally, I think that Abraham represents a creeping influence of Hinduism in the middle east.

There is definitely a connection between Abraham and Sarah and BRAHMA AND SARAWATI.

There are certain striking similarities between the Hindu god Brahma and his consort Saraisvati, and the Jewish Abraham and Sarai, that are more than mere coincidences. Although in all of India there is only one temple dedicated to Brahma, this cult is the third largest Hindu sect.

I clicked on this thread to respond, exactly what you said. Abraham is Braman, Sara is Sariswati. Also I believe the characterized 'Jesus' is actually a personifcation of Kundalini energy reaching the highest states of consciousness. A being with this specific activation, would no doubt have simularities as this 'Jesus' character.

And of course; the obvious 7 seals is the 7 chakras.

Who wants to believe Christianity is an adoptation (or a hijack) of much earlier traditions and stories? Deffinately not the christians lol.

covertpanther
Abraham is Braman, Sara is Sariswati.

Oh, for the love of Pete.

THE BIBLE WASN'T WRITTEN IN ENGLISH! Hindu holy texts were also, surprisingly, not written in English.

Abraham, in Hebrew, is אַבְרָהָם‎. Where do you see ब्रह्मन् ("Brahman") in that?

Nowhere, that's where.

reply to post by adjensen


That's silly. These names were passed down through oral traditions. It's the phonics of the names, the way they sounded, that was preserved, not the alphabet.

reply to post by windword


Fine, prove that the pronunciation of "Abraham" in Hebrew is the same as "Braham" in Hindu.

(Spoiler alert: I already checked, and it is not.)

reply to post by adjensen


Really, 'cuz I checked too. How do you say "taco" in Spanish?

reply to post by FlyersFan


While there is no evidence for the existence of Abraham, there is evidence for the existence of a place called Dan.

In the El Amarna letters EA#151 tells us that

King of Danuna is dead and his brother became King

So there is evidence of a place called Dan before the (so called) conquest of Joshua.

.

NewAgeMan

FlyersFan
IF Abraham existed, which there doesn't seem to be any credible evidence that he did, then he was one sick puppy [/url] Supposedly he tried to murder his child and sacrifice him to his God. Voices told him to ... and voices told him not to do it at the last minute.

THIS is the father of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam??
Not exactly a stable foundation ... if the foundation exists at all.

Abraham's near sacrifice of Isaac was a prophetic foreshadowing of the cross of Jesus, another very narrow (by a mere thread) reprieve from certain death (although "obedient to the very point of death even death on a cross" Philippians 2:8).

Question: As with the incident with Abraham and Isaac, was there a "Ram" located conveniently nearby, in case two, at the critical moment on Good Friday (Passover Preparation day)?

Lo and behold - the Ram (caught up in the thicket?).

The Day of the Cross


Isn't that trippy?

Best regards,

NAM

P.S. See Origins to begin to see and recognize how such a thing might be possible ie: if Jesus was a true Magus working to a precise, prophetic and "superdeterministic" schedule, determined from a first/last cause, even from before the very foundation of the world.

Full Documentary.

“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. 32 There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true.

John 5:31

This post was one of the best I've ever made. I sure hope it wasn't overlooked.

Best regards, and God Bless,

NAM

Well, one thing the bible is correct about and is provable, and has been proven, is that Jews and Arabs share a common father. The Bible claims they are both descended from Abraham. They are both descended from the same man. If not Abraham, who? The time frame is perfectly in line with biblical accounts as well.

More than 70% of Jewish men and half of the Arab men whose DNA was studied inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors who lived in the region within the last few thousand years.

news.sciencemag.org...

adjensen

covertpanther
Abraham is Braman, Sara is Sariswati.

Oh, for the love of Pete.

THE BIBLE WASN'T WRITTEN IN ENGLISH! Hindu holy texts were also, surprisingly, not written in English.

Abraham, in Hebrew, is אַבְרָהָם‎. Where do you see ब्रह्मन् ("Brahman") in that?

Nowhere, that's where.

edit on 25-9-2013 by adjensen because: (no reason given)

Who's Pete?

Im pretty sure the bible was written in english, millions of times, I've seen one with my own eyes

The point really isn't about the name, though I know you would love to hold that argument. Its about an individual within these STORIES (originally WRITTEN IN HEBREW, lol), being just that, a story.

As the OP and others have stated numerous times; there is a 1500 YEAR gap between his so called existence, and mention of him within scripture. Are you going to tell me, through word of mouth, by HUMANS in those days, accurately held a story of this translated "Abraham", over a span of 1500 years or so?

If you want to believe some bullshi*t from people in a time where control, power, killing and birth of religion was going on - go ahead, see where it gets you in the afterlife. I dont give a hoot about the bible, christianity, religion or A-brahman lol.

But I do feel for those who argue and become spiritually declined over religion and oral-stories afrom 2000 years ago when people were worshiping alien-'gods', talking bushes and sacrificing their first child!

--------------------------------------------------
ETA: Being written in Hebrew isnt the point as I said; who governs over a billion followers? Christianity and the Bible TODAY, in ENGLISH. For the last few centuries, the Bible has been converted to english and forced upon most nations in the world.

How many people speak/write in Hebrew today? How many in English? Which language has more control of the masses in the world TODAY?
On mass, the Bible is printed in a variety of languages, mainly english. Within that Bible is a name "abraham" and "Sara", within the indian tradition, there is Brahman and "Saraiswati". Obviously some controllers of old were playing word games huh?

Language is a design of mental control anyways, so is religion. But the point is, taking the numberr one control tool in the world (Christianity/religion), and finding the simularities in MUCH earlier civilizations and stories (Sumerian, Indian, Egyptian..). Getting to the root, and connecting the dots, does that scare a Christian?

reply to post by godlover25


So what if Moses wrote Genesis?

Genesis has been proven wrong. Science teaches us exactly how planets are formed and there is no god involved.

All you are saying is man wrote the bible. I agree with that and man is frequently wrong, especially when guessing.

reply to post by covertpanther


Things always seem to get so personal. I appreciate your research and try to approach it as unbiased as I can even though I am a Christian. But the small jabs from BOTH sides really need to stop. To often we come into a discussion with an agenda instead of looking at the evidence without biased. And yes I'm talking about both sides as I've seen it through this whole thread.

godlover25
reply to post by VelvetSplash

 

The Bible is the most trustworthy historical account we have,

In 1868, a stone tablet was discovered in Jordan. It was written by a Moabite king named Mesha, an enemy of Israel.

The stone dates to around 840 BC, less than 200 years after David and it provides the first known reference to the "House of David" outside the Bible.

"And 'House of David,' it means 'dynasty of David.' So we know that there was a guy called David, and he had a dynasty," Garfinkel said. "Okay, so now this is absolutely clear that David is not a mythological figure. So the mythological paradigm collapsed in one moment."

No. All this proves is that 200 years after this mythical king was supposed to have lived, a group of people named their royal house after a long-passed ruler - real or mythical. There is absolutely no archeological or written evidence (outside of the Bible which was written many more centuries after this supposed rule) for the real king David, if there ever was one - and even if there was, that doesn't mean the fantastical tales in the bible are real, because again there is absolutely no corroborating evidence to support such mythical folklore.

It's no different than suggest Count Dracula was real because a story was written about him, and there is kind of, sort of, a little bit, a link to an actual real person - whom had a lot of wild, fantastical stories told about him that survived and grew even more exaggerated long after he died.

Evidence is the name of the game - without that, all you have is faith, and faith is not something you can argue or discuss, because it has absolutely no basis in fact. No one wants to take away your faith if you have it, but there's no way you can use it to your advantage to hold up an argument because to everyone other than you it is simply a figment of your imagination that keeps you warm at night.

Slightly off topic, but I can't resist. Very good thread. This type of back-and-forth serves to remind me of how the Apocalypse will certainly be at least primarily about none other than absolute proof, somehow, that Earth humans are positively NOT the center of the universe, or anything resembling it, and that ALL religions are, to put it diplomatically, more false than true, in the least. Spirituality, science, truth, justice, rationality, cooler heads etc. WILL defeat the forces of darkness i.e. organized religions (or anything that simply has a NAME along that line), secrecy-BASED government and whatever else that enslaves. Consider that a formal prediction, though true that I can't be outright SURE I'm correct.

fireyaguns
I have read the whole thread and no where has anyone proven Abraham did not exist.

So you want to have a negative proven? It's rather difficult to do.

Those that think Abraham DID exist ... they are the ones who are supposed to prove that he did.
It doesn't go the other way around.

Here's some common sense from page one ....

Abraham would have lived 2000 BC. The stories weren't written down until 500 BC.
So for 1500 years, people told and retold stories.
Exactly how accurate do you think those stories could possibly be?

There are proven problems with the Abraham stories.
DAN didn't exist. Yet the Abraham story states very clearly that Abraham went to DAN.
And in the Qu'ran, the Abraham story includes caravans with camels and trade routes.
NO SUCH THING existed in Abrahams time.