I Finally Understand Why Abortion Can't Be Discussed Logically.

reply to post by AnaSh


Dear AnaSh, thank you for a reasonable and wisely critical comment.
Being consistent, we will try to answer your questions:
1) You are absolutely right about the fact that “…the level of medicine is significantly higher than that of countries which are mentioned as ones with prohibited abortions”. However, despite this fact, there are reliable statistics, according to which “…in South Africa 6 years after the liberalization of abortions the amount of deaths caused by unsafe abortions has decreased by more than 50% (Haddad et al. 124)”. We cannot deny the fact of existence generally high level of deaths in the region. That is true, that it is mostly explained by the quite low level of the medicine. Still, legalization of abortions has a positive effect and allows to use the united standards and certify operations, increasing significantly their quality.

Speaking about extremely poor regions, with very low economic development, the problem might be much more dramatic. This is what you mentioned in your third question: there are general serious problems of controlling the birth rate and planning a family. And the reason lies in a lack of even simple contraceptives. Hence, in such cases, the first thing governments could do would be spreading and subsidizing the contraceptives, and we even do not mention abortions here.

2) Your warnings are based on the assumption that legal abortions are a kind of public information. However, no one sais that they are, there is a right for personal information. Of course, it would be registered that a person had such operation, but this information wouldn’t be available for anyone, except doctors and the department, that collect it anonymously for statistics.
3) I cannot disagree with your points. These is really so, that the culture of safe sex and the seriousness about the question should be established at schools, for example. Such preventing measures are essential and effective in long run.

reply to post by Akragon

Dear Akragon,

Just stopping in for a quick visit and I saw that you and windword were speaking about God ordering the destruction of women and slicing them open, as proof that God wasn't against abortion in the Old Testament.

The Church has no trouble talking about it. It doesn't come up very often because there is no theological complexity or difficulty to it. As you point out, this happened to the Israelites' enemies who were doing some pretty serious false god worshiping with a little child sacrifice on the side. This is just further evidence that when God gets into a smiting mood, you'd better be sure you're on His side.

God also allows the existence of Hell, that doesn't mean he endorses Hell.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

As you point out, this happened to the Israelites' enemies who were doing some pretty serious false god worshiping with a little child sacrifice on the side. This is just further evidence that when God gets into a smiting mood, you'd better be sure you're on His side.

I would say its further evidence the OT God was the false God the israelites worshipped... Typical of his personality, demanding the blood of the innocent

Quite the disgusting entity... Rather pathetic actually

Prideful, jealous, blood thirsty... All the worst traits of a human wrapped up in one...

God also allows the existence of Hell, that doesn't mean he endorses Hell.

I can't agree with that... A god who demands the blood of innocent beings would delight in seeing people burn for eternity...

Oh no my friend... I am not on this so called god's side

Whatever IT is... It deserves nothing less then the mythical hell that human minds have created

windword
reply to post by colbe

 

There you go with the childish "forced" again. Faith is a choice, we all have free will.

Ah, good then. All this time I thought you were anti-choice, and anti free will. I'm so relieved to find that you are actually pro-choice after all!

And that you support free will, including the free choice to use contraception!

edit on 18-12-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

Speak of free will....

This message from Heaven has the thread subject mentioned in it and much about free will. Let us all be like little children, trust and follow God's way. Turn to Him and His gift, a shortcut, ask the Blessed Mother's help too.

I love windword, we are friends.


colbe

+ + +

Message to Maria of Gethsemani (a translation)

FREE WILL

THE DECISION IS YOURS OF WHERE YOU WILL PASS ETERNITY


(God the Father Speaks)

My Dear:
Abba


What are we going to do with the little ones that tighten their eyes so as not to see and can keep on sinning with certain looseness?


No matter how many signs, messages, blessings, and reprimands are sent to them, they don’t want to see and continue their lives of sin without giving thanks that their communities and their homes are standing; already millions have lost their homes, their work, and their belongings.


They do not place themselves in a sensible position, Creature. Even my little animals do it: when they see a storm coming, a fire extending, a volcano which is in eruption; even they lower their heads and join others, but not men, they do not break that horrible individuality that leads them to think in HOW TO PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM THE OTHERS IN CASE OF CALAMITY.


Some of them get firearms to protect their goods and food, not even when they see these calamities that extend and pop-up around the world, do they support one another. It is a total indifference, Our Very Own Creature.


And their struggles keep on being for selfish reasons that touch their pockets. How marches and protests have you seen for reasons that touch the economy around the world? And how many to stop the wars, the abominable abortions, and euthanasia? How many for reasons of money? And how many for reasons to safeguard My laws from the hands of the wicked?


THEY DON’T SEE, DON’T BELIEVE, DO NOT UNDERSTAND, DO NOT ACCEPT and, Little Creature, when the cataclysm falls on top of them, they look for occasions like “luck”, -which does not exist- or vain and insufficient explanations that their scientist venture to try to feel that they are still “in control”, when, Creature, they have never had it.


Is man with his pride and arrogance perhaps who regulates the rhythm of the tides or the force of the wind or where it blows? Is man who makes the earth and the sun turn and keeps the stars in the sky? Is man who has created the perfect universal order so as to feel owner and creator?


You are very tiny and very limited creatures with a great power which is your free will. And why do I tell you that this is a great power? Because with it, because of it, and through it, you can reach Heaven, salvation; and, Dear Children, misused, with this same power of decision with which I have given you, you can reach eternal condemnation. Do you understand the power that I Have Given you? Everything else comes from Me.


If you decide for your Salvation, I start filling you with Gifts, Blessings, Graces, and Presents so you will grow in it and can reach these very high places in Heaven; but if you keep rejecting Me, what can you expect but anguish, solitude, and desperation?


Your Heaven or your hell seems to start on earth because of how you feel in respect to your Most High God, and this does not change with death, but continuous in a punctual manner.


Don’t believe the new and modern theories: that all will be saved; that it’s just enough to confess that you are Christian, to be one. You have to be one, follow My Most Beloved Son because I have told you: Faith without WORKS is a dead faith; and you do not live or are faithful to My Gospel. Can you understand it?


So, My Little Children, that this very powerful weapon that I have given you, YOUR FREE WILL, will you use to look for your salvation or your Condemnation? The decision is entirely yours, not mine, My Little Children. Mine is for all of you to be saved, that each one enters to enjoy the Blessings of Heaven; but you reject Me; you reject My Holy Spirit of Good and Truth; you reject the Gospel of My Beloved Son; you reject My Ancestral Laws; you mock of My Holy Church and of My Priests, and even still you judge yourselves as saved?



THE DECISION IS YOURS OF WHERE YOU WILL PASS ETERNITY.


So, My Little Children, decide your Good and get away from the bad that you do, because, My Little Children, you don’t want to save yourselves, and you don’t know what you are doing. Once the veil falls, you will have lost the opportunity to decide; you won’t be able to change, and a last sigh is not sufficient to mend so much error that you have committed; so change now, that time is no longer time; I have told you.
We continue exhorting you, reprimanding you and inciting you because one of you might change your final destiny.




(Our Lord Jesus Christ Speaks)
Beloved Creature:
My Lord


When one of My creatures is gladden with her Lord, when it is time and reason of Celebration, and if its heart saddens when it is time of reflexive advent; he is a BELOVED FRIEND OF HEAVEN; but if you maintain yourselves INDIFFERENT before the hardships and the joys of your Celestial Family, how can you say that you belong to it? Do you understand? A Family is a UNIT and you can’t pretend to be part of it if your acts, wishes, desires, thoughts, and works are in the interests and in the celebrations and blackness of the world.


They are two different homes, the opposite, different, and you must decide to which of the two you belong, because when you join one or the other, you are deciding the destiny that one and the other will have.


Do you want the Final Triumph and the Glory? Or do you want the fleeting enjoyment and the indifference towards your Lord, King of kings and Lord of lords and with it the definite failure which is to continue risking to your free condemnation?


Think about it, meditate on it, do a conscience examination, and tell me with honesty: If you would die now, would Heaven be your last destiny? If you cannot affirm it, ask me for what you need so your answer will be a profound, trusted, and loving: “Yes”.
I love you in an infinite manner Your Most Beloved Lord Jesus Christ, King of kings and Lord of lords in this End of Times.



(Our Most Holy Mother Queen of the Angels)



Children very beloved of My Immaculate Heart:
For you that are not among the more advanced little lambs, but not less loved because of it, but who cause Us greater worry; we continue exhorting you to follow these Holy Guidelines so you will advance and request the Beautiful Dialogs that continue coming as rain of Wisdom and Blessings from Holy Heaven. ...


oracionesydevocionescatolicas.com...

reply to post by Akragon

reply to post by colbe


Great, now all you have to do is prove that God exists and your argument will be compelling.

Until then it's just nonsense, though; sorry.

reply to post by TheRegal


Hence the heart of the issue. You call a person a "parasite".

So this means if you have sex with woman, she takes your condom and inserts your sperm into her and gets pregnant you can't do anything about it.

#ING FEMINIST BURN IN HELL.

reply to post by charles1952


To trick a woman into taking an abortion pill is criminal - no questions and no argument necessary that part is self evident and straightforward.

What about all the Children on this planet who are abandoned, neglected and generally uncared for??? Anyone care to spare a thought for them? Abortion is not the most attractive action of humans but what humans can inflict on vulnerable Children is not an attractive trait either.

My view is that terminating a pregnancy is the right of the woman - she knows whether she can bring the Child into the world and properly care it, only she knows whether the unborn Child will have any semblance of a decent life.

When humans have managed to care for every single Child so that not one is in need of food and water let alone love, nurturing and protection - maybe then terminating a pregnancy will become a distant memory. With all the sex education available in todays society what we really need to do is realise that unprotected sex is how unwanted babies are created.

Robin Williams the comedian sums the situation up beautifully in a sketch - okay the anti abortionists don't want to kill the unborn babies - okay I can work with that - how about we knock on the doors of all the anti abortionists and give them the baby they did not want aborted!!! When anti abortionists are ready to adopt at least one of the babies they did not want aborted - maybe the problem will be part way solved.

I don't profess to have the answers but I sure see a lot of unwanted Children living loveless lives on this planet. I don't believe anyone should have to live their life as a mistake someone did not want nor should they have to live their life as a result of an anti abortionist who applied their conscience in place of adopting the child.

Much Peace...

LadyGreenEyes
reply to post by TheRegal

 

Hence the heart of the issue. You call a person a "parasite".

I did not, don't be so childish.

I said a fetus' functionality is closer to a parasite than a human being.

Don't twist things that people say to continue beating your ideological drum, it's unbearably petty and juvenile.

Feel free to prove me wrong on my statement if you want to -- you'll have to leave your subscription to your group-think's emotional rabble-rousing at the door, though. Although, that's something you've shown me consistently on other threads that you're completely incapable of doing.

TheRegal

LadyGreenEyes
reply to post by TheRegal

 

Hence the heart of the issue. You call a person a "parasite".

I did not, don't be so childish.

I said a fetus' functionality is closer to a parasite than a human being.

Don't twist things that people say to continue beating your ideological drum, it's unbearably petty and juvenile.

Feel free to prove me wrong on my statement if you want to -- you'll have to leave your subscription to your group-think's emotional rabble-rousing at the door, though. Although, that's something you've shown me consistently on other threads that you're completely incapable of doing.

edit on 30-12-2013 by TheRegal because: (no reason given)

Your post -

TheRegal

LadyGreenEyes
Except, of course, for the personal free will and freedom of all those killed in the womb, right? Easier to pretend they aren't really people, right? Gee, didn't people say that about certain skin colors at one time?

There's no pretening needed.

It's not a person.

Its functionality is closer to a parasite.

with unique DNA

Just like a parasite.

edit on 29-11-2013 by TheRegal because: (no reason given)

You stated flat out that a fetus isn't a person, and used the term "parasite" to describe them. Your words, not mine. The term "fetus" is a term describing a human being at a particular stage of development, and is no less about a human being than terms such as "infant", "toddler", "child", "teenager", "adult", and "elderly".

Pretending you didn't mean what you said doesn't make for mature debate. That's what you think, so admit to it. If you are so certain you are right, why quibble?

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


If you honestly can't tell the difference between saying "This thing is a parasite" and "This thing's functionality is closer to a parasite than a human being", then I really can't help you, sorry.

This is not even an argument worth having.

Either statement is true, anyways, even if you do consider the fetus a "person", it is still parasitic.

par·a·site [par-uh-sahyt] Show IPA
noun
1.
an organism that lives on or in an organism, known as the host, from the body of which it obtains nutriment.
2.
a person who receives support, advantage, or the like, from another or others without giving any useful or proper return, as one who lives on the hospitality of others.

Sorry about your luck.

reply to post by TheRegal


My "luck"? You have a very warped view of humanity, if you can compare an unborn baby to a parasite. A parasite isn't the OFFSPRING of the host, either, but some other sort of creature. One of these days, all the people calling others "non-human" might get a shock, when suddenly their own little group is added to that list. Such attitudes don't work out so well for those on the receiving end. Such attitudes are what leads to holocausts.

If you ever get a clue, come back and discuss. Otherwise, we are done. In my book, someone that labels other human beings as parasites, or close to that, have revoked the right to discuss with me issues of morality.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

If you ever get a clue, come back and discuss. Otherwise, we are done. In my book, someone that labels other human beings as parasites, or close to that, have revoked the right to discuss with me issues of morality.

I don't recall anyone requesting the right to discuss issues of morality with you. You opted to enter the thread with your opinions. You don't decide who is post worthy, you can only decide if you want to respond to a poster or not.

By the way, I agree. A fertilized egg, an embryo, a fetus is NOT a person. I also agree that the unborn are functionally more parasitic than not.

windword
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

If you ever get a clue, come back and discuss. Otherwise, we are done. In my book, someone that labels other human beings as parasites, or close to that, have revoked the right to discuss with me issues of morality.

I don't recall anyone requesting the right to discuss issues of morality with you. You opted to enter the thread with your opinions. You don't decide who is post worthy, you can only decide if you want to respond to a poster or not.

By the way, I agree. A fertilized egg, an embryo, a fetus is NOT a person. I also agree that the unborn are functionally more parasitic than not.

edit on 15-1-2014 by windword because: (no reason given)

Read what I wrote. I stated specifically that I wasn't discussing this with that person any longer. I never stated that they couldn't discuss it with others. You are stating that I can only do what I actually did.

If you share that opinion, then you are mistaken. DNA doesn't lie.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

If you share that opinion, then you are mistaken. DNA doesn't lie.

DNA isn't a "person" either.

windword
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

If you ever get a clue, come back and discuss. Otherwise, we are done. In my book, someone that labels other human beings as parasites, or close to that, have revoked the right to discuss with me issues of morality.

I don't recall anyone requesting the right to discuss issues of morality with you. You opted to enter the thread with your opinions. You don't decide who is post worthy, you can only decide if you want to respond to a poster or not.

By the way, I agree. A fertilized egg, an embryo, a fetus is NOT a person. I also agree that the unborn are functionally more parasitic than not.

edit on 15-1-2014 by windword because: (no reason given)

Hmmmm.....what if you are wrong?
I mean what properties does it have that would make you think it's a parasite?

reply to post by Quadrivium

Hmmmm.....what if you are wrong?

I don't think that there is "right" or "wrong" opinion on the matter of when the unborn gain personhood. There are only opinions and priorities.

I mean what properties does it have that make you would make you think it's a parasite?

I don't really think that the "parasite" argument in very important or worth having, but I will answer your question with another question...."What is the opposite of 'parasitic'?"

My ex husband is STILL a parasite! (Albeit, I am not his host anymore)

windword
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

Hmmmm.....what if you are wrong?

I don't think that there is "right" or "wrong" opinion on the matter of when the unborn gain personhood. There are only opinions and priorities.

I mean what properties does it have that make you would make you think it's a parasite?

I don't really think that the "parasite" argument in very important or worth having, but I will answer your question with another question...."What is the opposite of 'parasitic'?"

My ex husband is STILL a parasite! (Albeit, I am not his host anymore)

No need to get defensive. From your post I though you agreed with theregale that the baby was parasitic.
In which case you would be...........wrong.

reply to post by Quadrivium


I'm not defensive. And, I don't think that anyone in this thread has declared that an unborn baby, at any stage of gestation, is a "parasite".

I agree with this statement.

www.abovetopsecret.com... The Regal:
If you honestly can't tell the difference between saying "This thing is a parasite" and "This thing's functionality is closer to a parasite than a human being", then I really can't help you, sorry