I Finally Understand Why Abortion Can't Be Discussed Logically.

Dear ATSers,

I feel a little stupid that this has just dawned on me, but it will help me to avoid a lot of posting in abortion threads. Let me explain.

The one key question in this issue is "What is inside the mother that will be killed?" If it's seen as an innocent human, then it's murder. Abortionists have to say that it is not a human, and they come up with several names other than 'Human." You've heard them, "Potential human," "Developing human," "Mass of cells," and so on.

I ran across an interesting article on CNN.

Remee Lee was elated when she became pregnant, but those feelings quickly turned into a nightmare that won't let go of her.

Her boyfriend wasn't happy about the pregnancy, but it was Lee's dream to have a child. Until her boyfriend, John Andrew Welden, took that dream away.

This week, Welden, 28, pleaded guilty to killing their unborn baby. How? He tricked Lee into taking an abortion pill, causing her to miscarry.

Lee, 26, was in the Florida courtroom Monday, dabbing away tears as her former boyfriend accepted a plea deal that could send him to prison for at least 13 years.

Welden was indicted under the rarely used federal Unborn Victims of Violence Act, a murder charge that carries a life sentence.

www.cnn.com...

This tells us that the baby (or whatever you choose to call it) was determined to be human, not through any scientific test, not whether it could survive on it's own, or had reached a certain stage of development. It was declared to be a human based on the mother's wishes at the time. You can't be tried for murdering something that isn't human.

A woman can declare the baby to be protected by federal murder statutes as a human, then change her mind the next day and have it killed with no penalty.

So, now I know. Life or death is not based on the rights granted to all humans, but the life of the child is based on whatever the mother wants to do with it at a point in time. Judge, jury, and executioner. It's ugly, but there is no rational argument to be had here.

I wouldn't be comfortable trying to defend that unscientific position, but our system allows the contradictory conclusions displayed here.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

Yeah, like Melissa Perry who believes that life begins when you 'feel like' it begins, not necessarily after birth!

reply to post by charles1952


I knew it was only a matter of time with these "abortion pills" this would come up -

I am anti-abortion for the record - and I stupidly had one when I was 16. Abortion is murder.

reply to post by charles1952


That is such a thoughtful OP Charles. I understand where you are coming from. There shouldn't be two sets of rules.

Abortion is so controversial. I have such mixed thoughts regarding the procedure. I believe it should be up to the woman but only up until a certain point and a certain gestation period.

You are a kind man.

reply to post by charles1952


It's a point where one persons rights supercedes anothers.

The right of the mother over-rules the rights of the unborn.

I found it ironic that gay rights supporters spoke of the rights of the individual, yet those self-same people disregarded the rights of the unborn individual.

Like slavery, the rights of the white people over-ruled the rights of the black person.

Slavery concluded that a person could determine whether or not a person lived or died.

Same as abortion.

reply to post by charles1952


The day I grow a womb and become capable of giving birth to another human is the day I will tell a woman how I truly feel about her getting an abortion.

Not a day sooner.

Until then, I will meekly commit to declaring it a nasty bit of humanity that could be remedied best by supporting single mothers and not with laws.

reply to post by Cuervo


Oh come on Cuervo!

Haven't you commented on war?

Have you worn a uniform?

Cuervo
reply to post by charles1952

 

The day I grow a womb and become capable of giving birth to another human is the day I will tell a woman how I truly feel about her getting an abortion.

Not a day sooner.

Until then, I will meekly commit to declaring it a nasty bit of humanity that could be remedied best by supporting single mothers and not with laws.

Thanks, Curervo.

For the record, SOMEONE PLEASE DELIVER ME FROM HELL..... for this thread proved it to me, undeniably.

reply to post by charles1952


I have wondered whats the percentage of woman that have had Abortions, feel guilty about it?

About talking about it, you can have a discussion but unfortunately many woman believe men shouldn't have a say in it. Ive seen it first hand here on ATS.

beezzer
reply to post by Cuervo

 

Oh come on Cuervo!

Haven't you commented on war?

Have you worn a uniform?

Are you saying there is a good side to war that is defensible?

There are no fuzzy lines between killing people violently and not killing people violently. It's pretty clear.

reply to post by Cuervo


A non-answer, my friend. Then again, you're speaking to a vet that actually sees an outcome (positive) to war/fighting.

Can't force a woman to have a child, and can't force her to not have a child.

Yep. That seems about right.

Cuervo
reply to post by charles1952

 

The day I grow a womb and become capable of giving birth to another human is the day I will tell a woman how I truly feel about her getting an abortion.

Not a day sooner.

Until then, I will meekly commit to declaring it a nasty bit of humanity that could be remedied best by supporting single mothers and not with laws.

the day i develop as a fetus and begin to grow as a......

..... oh wait

oops.

beezzer
reply to post by charles1952

 

It's a point where one persons rights supercedes anothers.

The right of the mother over-rules the rights of the unborn.

I found it ironic that gay rights supporters spoke of the rights of the individual, yet those self-same people disregarded the rights of the unborn individual.

Like slavery, the rights of the white people over-ruled the rights of the black person.

Slavery concluded that a person could determine whether or not a person lived or died.

Same as abortion.

First, S&F Charles. Another well thought out OP!
Second, star for you beez. I couldn't agree more!

As someone who came close to being aborted in '73 I can tell you that abortion is wrong. Luckily for me my mom understood that her rights did not supersede my own. She was my voice when I was unable to speak for myself.
Quad

beezzer
reply to post by Cuervo

 

A non-answer, my friend. Then again, you're speaking to a vet that actually sees an outcome (positive) to war/fighting.

a non answer?? You've compared this to war and slavery and everything else, where there really is no comparison.
Your uniform gives you what, in this debate, exactly?

NM. I should have never replied to this thread, nor read it. There is a total mish-mash of stuff going on here, like usual, and totally aberrant to anything healthy....but, that's just my opinion, yes, as a woman and a mother. And who gives a frig if I ever had a uniform. Does that equate special analysis of said subject, herein, REALLY? Or are you simply baiting, cause it's looking a whole lot like that. but unfortunately, you've mixed in war, slavery, etc....where they don't even belong, as they are not congruous with this aspect of life, nor the bearing of it, for much is left out inbetween.

tetra50

a non answer?? You've compared this to war and slavery and everything else, where there really is no comparison.
Your uniform gives you what, in this debate, exactly?

A value to life. Since I've seen it disregarded so damned much!

NM. I should have never replied to this thread, nor read it. There is a total mish-mash of stuff going on here, like usual, and totally aberrant to anything healthy....but, that's just my opinion, yes, as a woman and a mother. And who gives a frig if I ever had a uniform. Does that equate special analysis of said subject, herein, REALLY? Or are you simply baiting, cause it's looking a whole lot like that. but unfortunately, you've mixed in war, slavery, etc....where they don't even belong, as they are not congruous with this aspect of life, nor the bearing of it, for much is left out inbetween.

It is ugly when comparisons make you think. I wanted that.

I hate killing. I've seen it too often. And the casual disregard done to a pre-born person just hurts me that much more.

Quadrivium

beezzer
reply to post by charles1952

 

It's a point where one persons rights supercedes anothers.

The right of the mother over-rules the rights of the unborn.

I found it ironic that gay rights supporters spoke of the rights of the individual, yet those self-same people disregarded the rights of the unborn individual.

Like slavery, the rights of the white people over-ruled the rights of the black person.

Slavery concluded that a person could determine whether or not a person lived or died.

Same as abortion.

First, S&F Charles. Another well thought out OP!
Second, star for you beez. I couldn't agree more!

As someone who came close to being aborted in '73 I can tell you that abortion is wrong. Luckily for me my mom understood that her rights did not supersede my own. She was my voice when I was unable to speak for myself.
Quad

So, by that thought process it is a woman's job to give that to you? And your rights, then supercede hers?
And if no one helps her in raising you, and you end up in foster care or abused or worse, because this is the real world out there for unwed and unwanted mothers, then, what?

And it's her job to see it that way just because she has a vagina?
You're all just baiting here. this CAN'T be an honest discussion. And you portray yourselves as "patriots," along these lines. How very friggin sad. How bout I tell you via your rights you can't screw a woman without getting a vasectomy, unless you're willing to financially support the possible progeny from the act?

Never mind. Shutting up now.

reply to post by charles1952

So, now I know. Life or death is not based on the rights granted to all humans, but the life of the child is based on whatever the mother wants to do with it at a point in time. Judge, jury, and executioner. It's ugly, but there is no rational argument to be had here.

Right! It's the mother's choice, and no one has the right to take that choice away.

To be clear, the Supreme Court ruled, in Roe V Wade, that the unborn have no right to life before viability.

This man was prosecuted under the The Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004, signed into law by President Bush. When this law passed, pro-lifers were ecstatic that they were one step closer to declaring a fetus, yea, even a fertilized egg, a person.

By itself, the law seems innocuous.
It simply creates a separate criminal offense against anyone who causes an involuntary termination of another’s pregnancy in the course of committing another federal crime. Additionally, it expands the federal murder, manslaughter, and attempted murder/manslaughter statutes to protect the unborn.

The central point of contention of the act is that it recognizes an unborn child at any stage of development as a human person, at least for the purposes of legal protection from murder.

Abortion rights activist have claimed the act as a tactic to increase the levels of legal rights recognized in the unborn.
- See more at: westlawinsider.com...

But, in reality, this law does nothing to protect the unborn. It only enable the law to punish someone who takes away a woman's right of choice.

reply to post by Quadrivium


I think that people your age - the age where your mother could have easily had an abortion due to her circumstances - but choose not to - to choose the harder choice of giving her "child/fetus" a chance -

I think that's why (thank God) we have more people choosing anti-abortions more than pro-abortion.

Most women do feel guilty for abortions - I am 50 years old - the number of women my age that has had abortions is incredible - and they do feel guilty.

Yes, there are women who couldn't care less - but that is the minority.

How can a woman go through a pregnancy and not understand that the fetus is a being - not a "bag of cells"?

I won't even comment on the "rights that a father" should have in this event.

beezzer

tetra50

a non answer?? You've compared this to war and slavery and everything else, where there really is no comparison.
Your uniform gives you what, in this debate, exactly?

A value to life. Since I've seen it disregarded so damned much!

NM. I should have never replied to this thread, nor read it. There is a total mish-mash of stuff going on here, like usual, and totally aberrant to anything healthy....but, that's just my opinion, yes, as a woman and a mother. And who gives a frig if I ever had a uniform. Does that equate special analysis of said subject, herein, REALLY? Or are you simply baiting, cause it's looking a whole lot like that. but unfortunately, you've mixed in war, slavery, etc....where they don't even belong, as they are not congruous with this aspect of life, nor the bearing of it, for much is left out inbetween.

It is ugly when comparisons make you think. I wanted that.

I hate killing. I've seen it too often. And the casual disregard done to a pre-born person just hurts me that much more.

Yeah, beezzer, I hate killing too. This is getting real ugly real fast. You think I like it. Let me ask you: ever tried to feed a life you have no money to feed, provide shelter with no money or help or skills to provide that?

Geez.....being simplistic, or what? You aren't the only one that earned or wore a uniform. And I don't need anyone to make me think about this, thank you very much.....

what total crap and total arrogance displayed here. Well, I'll say this much. Maybe you'll get an award for running me off this website. High five your homies over it. as its useless tripe any longer now