I Finally Understand Why Abortion Can't Be Discussed Logically.

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady

Your personal belief is based on opinion not proven scientific fact.

That is equally true for everyone in this debate, pro-life or pro-choice or anything esle. Science describes, not prescribes. Science gives us many thresholds to choose from, be it conception, implantation, development of heart, brain, viability or birth. But it is up to us to choose one where abortion is considered unethical or immoral. That question is outside of the realm of science, it is subjective. Science can only guide us, but it cannot resolve this debate for us. There is no test or equation that can answer when right to life begins.

BTW the third week after conception is when the baby's brain, spinal cord, heart and other organs begin to form.

And it takes several more months until higher brain is developed sufficiently to speak about a rudimentary consciousness or sentience.

Interview with Dr. Susan Robinson, One of the Last Four Doctors in America to Openly Provide Third-Trimester Abortions
thehairpin.com...


www.lifenews.com...

Abortionist: We Give Parents of Aborted Babies Photos to Remember Their “Birth”

We’ll take remembrance photographs, we’ll give them a teddy bear, the footprints… I don’t want them to go home from the procedure with absolutely nothing to remember and honor the baby, and its birth.

use of the word “baby” in this context shows that she is under no illusions about what she does for a living – she kills babies. In using the terms “fetus” and “baby” interchangeably, she reveals that she, like many abortionists, knows that these children are living human beings. One also wonders how Dr. Robinson knows that the baby dies painlessly after being injected and poisoned.

Perhaps the most disturbing part of Dr. Robinson’s interview is her description of how many of the women who abort their handicapped children want to see the children they had killed:

With fetal anomaly patients, we ask them right up front if they plan to hold their baby after it’s born. These patients, their emotional needs are so different from the ones who are looking at their pregnancy as an absolute disaster, who are just thinking, “Get it out of me, please, please, please.” Those patients—the maternal indications patients—they are not relating to their fetus as a baby, they’re relating to it as a problem.

But with a fetal indications patient—if she refers to it as her baby, I’ll refer to it as her baby. If she’s named the baby, I’ll use the baby’s name too. I would say that most of these patients do decide to see and hold their baby, although many of them have a hard time dealing with the idea at first. We’ll take remembrance photographs, we’ll give them a teddy bear, the footprints… I don’t want them to go home from the procedure with absolutely nothing to remember and honor the baby, and its birth.

Even the interviewer seemed shocked by this admission.

Wow. You’ll say “birth”?

Yes. I try to mirror what will be the most consoling to the patient. In general, these patients—fetal indications—do talk about giving birth, so I’ll say that as well.

The interviewer also says:

To simultaneously sustain these ideas—that you desperately loved and wanted this baby that’s here in your arms, and also that you just committed yourself to ending its life—it’s one of the most complicated emotional situations I can imagine. In these cases—I am sorry for this macabre question—the baby is dead, right? They never meet their baby alive?

Here Dr. Robinson affirms that yes, the baby is dead.

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady






I fail to see how you can liken putting four live kittens through a waste disposal unit,

to an abortion?? Those kittens were already born, living and breathing.

reply to post by stormdancer777


Only one who believes that this death is a transition could consider the child being born to eternal life.

Is this a sale oil salesman who is trying to to pad the bill with a few extra momentos? It is someone who knows the suffering to come and wants to help them through their grief in a sick sort of way? Every time that Mom looks at the picture she is going to feel sorrow. God bless these women who were given so little.

Very sad to think that all these women have to help them cope is something like this. These poor women who could have placed these babies for adoption have nothing but a sad memory to cling to now, I do not see dwelling on this as helpful.

Where is the choice when you believe you have to kill the one you love?

eletheia
reply to post by sad_eyed_lady

 

I fail to see how you can liken putting four live kittens through a waste disposal unit,

to an abortion?? Those kittens were already born, living and breathing.[/b]

Point being that the way they died is very similar to abortion. In abortion the child is ripped apart and gets his head crushed.

My children sucked their thumbs, kicked and hiccuped in utero. Maybe they played with their little winkys. They listened to classical music in the womb They were learning through listening before they were breathing. Is that not living?

tetra50

Yeah, beezzer, I hate killing too. This is getting real ugly real fast. You think I like it. Let me ask you: ever tried to feed a life you have no money to feed, provide shelter with no money or help or skills to provide that?

Geez.....being simplistic, or what? You aren't the only one that earned or wore a uniform. And I don't need anyone to make me think about this, thank you very much.....

what total crap and total arrogance displayed here. Well, I'll say this much. Maybe you'll get an award for running me off this website. High five your homies over it. as its useless tripe any longer now

" what total crap and total arrogance displayed here."

the finger you are pointing and judging leaves three pointing
back at you. look at your own crap and arrogance.

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady


There are lots of studies about the babies awareness and learning in the womb.

"Dozens of university and hospital studies show, that unborn children can see, hear, fear and perhaps even form rudimentary level of awareness in the womb. What’s more, psychologists now contend, prenatal life and the birth experience are so profound determinant of human personality and aptitude.” NURTURING THE UNBORN CHILD by Thomas Verny, M.D. and Pamela Weintraub – Olmstead Press.

Babies are particularly good at identifying their mother's voice. They are not equally good at identifying their father's voice. Decasper & Spence (1986) had mothers read "The Cat in the Hat” during their pregnancies. Babies preferred to listen to the same stories they had heard in the womb rather than novel stories."

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I
appointed you.

(and)

Luke 1:44 For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady




Both live and alive are words that have the same root "life." The sense of both words are
similar and yet different.

# live ... to not be dead
# alive ... state of living

So someone who was alive has a major accident, is on a ventilator, being intravenously
fed, head injuries, doesn't appear to be improving ... is artificially live, but not alive.
It is decided to stop the 'life giving support' Is that murder?

The woman is the 'life support' of the foetus?

eletheia
reply to post by sad_eyed_lady

 

Both live and alive are words that have the same root "life." The sense of both words are
similar and yet different.

# live ... to not be dead
# alive ... state of living

So someone who was alive has a major accident, is on a ventilator, being intravenously
fed, head injuries, doesn't appear to be improving ... is artificially live, but not alive.
It is decided to stop the 'life giving support' Is that murder?

The woman is the 'life support' of the foetus?

Is the baby brain dead? No. It;s brain is growing more rapidly than it will after the birth.

The guy on the ventilator life is nearing the end, The child's has just begun.

Is accidentally hitting and killing someone with a car a crime? Yes, it is vehicular manslaughter if it could have been prevented. The driver did not intend to hit someone. He/she had no motivation to kill.

Pregnacy isn't planned yet snuffing out the child's life is planned, Mom kills child and walks because she claims the legal right to do so because she made a mistake and did not use diligence to keep from getting pregnant. That is more than manslaugter as the intention to kill is there.

Someone dies for a mistake they never made. That is a tragedy.

You made a life and destroyed it. You really didn't support life did you? If you were a machine whose job it was to support life you would need some repair.

I beiieve life is precious. You treat is as disposable as an empty soda can.

When I say "you" I am directing my comments to the living life support that is the mother of the preborn child she is going to off.

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady





There are many horror stories out there! mostly put about by those who are anti abortion. Like
everything there is always the 'odd' exception to the rule. I have a great respect for the medical
profession and am sure most of them are caring and compassionate toward all patients.

Here in the UK the methods used are:-

# Up to nine weeks ... two different medicines given 48 hours apart and the result is similar
to a natural miscarriage.

# Nine to fifteen weeks ... vaccume aspiration uses gentle suction, takes five to ten minutes
and can be carried out under local anaesthetic.

# Twelve to twenty weeks, as well as being used for early abortion two separate tablets can
be taken - however it will take longer but is similar to having a late natural miscarriage ... or
surgical dilation and evacuation (D&E) carried out under general anaesthetic, the cervix is
stretched and dilated and a suction tube is used to remove the foetus ...


NOTHING THERE REGARDING RIPPING A CHILD APART AND CRUSHING IT'S HEAD !! that's just
propaganda and fear mongering.

reply to post by eletheia


Wash/Rinse/Repeat

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady

Dear sad_eyed_lady,

Would we rather have a horrendous truth, or a comforting lie? If we believe in truth, then your "Wash/Rinse/Repeat" video of testimony (only 5 minutes) tells us the horrendous, medical, truth. The idea that babies aren't dismembered and have their heads crushed is a comforting lie.

I think I understand why Planned Parenthood doesn't explain the procedure, very few, if any, would undergo it.

Thank you for the link.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady


I wonder what kind of a doctor would choose to use an abortion method that forces him to dismember a living fetus, when there are other less barbaric methods!

Women's Health
Induction Abortion
Starting (inducing) labor and delivery in the second or third trimester of a pregnancy is done using medicines. To prevent complications, the cervix may be slowly opened (dilated) with a device called a cervical (osmotic) dilator before the induction is started. Medicines to start early labor can be:

Injected into the amniotic sac surrounding the fetus (instillation) or injected into the fetus. Substances injected include salt water (saline), digoxin, or potassium chloride.
Inserted into the vagina to start uterine contractions and soften the cervix, which allows uterine contents to pass through the cervix. Vaginal medicines include the prostaglandins dinoprostone and misoprostol.
Injected into a vein (intravenously, or IV) to start uterine contractions. Oxytocin (Pitocin) is commonly used for this purpose.
The different medicines available for an induction abortion may be combined for effectiveness and to decrease the amount of bleeding.

An induction abortion does cause you to go through the stages of labor and delivery. Pain medicines can be used during the procedure.
women.webmd.com...

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

I know I'm misunderstanding you. You seem to think the method is important. Why?

If the result is the same, I can only see two differences.

1) The baby deserves to be treated in some better way than dismemberment. If it is only a "potential life," why should we care? It doesn't "deserve" anything. We're killing it anyway. If it's important to save the baby from a gruesome death, why not save it from any death?

2) It's bad publicity to show babies' body parts being pulled out of the mother. Bad publicity which may hurt the pro-choice movement.

Is there another reason? Dead is dead.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady





Here in the UK a few years ago there was a Dr Harold Shipman, who killed a total of 250 patients
between 1971 and 1998 ...Mostly elderly people killing them with lethal morphine injections, while working at a one man General Practice....


Does that mean that every Dr. kills off his old/elderly patients?? That no one should ever
trust a Dr. again?? Can't make judgements on whole sections of the profession on one or two
bad apples!

Abortion Telemarketing Industry .... the so called counselors

Abortion Provider Speaks

reply to post by charles1952


Charles,

The pro-life community is fond of evoking emotional responses and trying to shock and revolt it's targeted audience. They aren't past exaggeration and even lying, as is the case with this doctor.

First, he claims that this type of abortion, of a 24 week fetus is all in a day's work. He claims that ripping a living fetus apart, limb to limb is excruciatingly painful for the fetus. Lies!

Fetus termination , may be performed prior to the surgical procedure via an injection to stop the heartbeat. The tissues of the dead fetus will soften, making dismemberment easier.

en.wikipedia.org...

The fetus is already dead, so there IS NO PAIN. Why did he lie?

Secondly, these kinds of abortion are not usually done as late as he is explaining.

The standard D&E procedure is difficult after 20 weeks gestational age

A late-term abortion often refers to an induced abortion procedure that occurs after the 20th week of gestation.

en.wikipedia.org...

Why lie?

windword
reply to post by sad_eyed_lady

 

I wonder what kind of a doctor would choose to use an abortion method that forces him to dismember a living fetus, when there are other less barbaric methods!

Women's Health
Induction Abortion
Starting (inducing) labor and delivery in the second or third trimester of a pregnancy is done using medicines. To prevent complications, the cervix may be slowly opened (dilated) with a device called a cervical (osmotic) dilator before the induction is started. Medicines to start early labor can be:

Injected into the amniotic sac surrounding the fetus (instillation) or injected into the fetus. Substances injected include salt water (saline), digoxin, or potassium chloride.
Inserted into the vagina to start uterine contractions and soften the cervix, which allows uterine contents to pass through the cervix. Vaginal medicines include the prostaglandins dinoprostone and misoprostol.
Injected into a vein (intravenously, or IV) to start uterine contractions. Oxytocin (Pitocin) is commonly used for this purpose.
The different medicines available for an induction abortion may be combined for effectiveness and to decrease the amount of bleeding.

An induction abortion does cause you to go through the stages of labor and delivery. Pain medicines can be used during the procedure.
women.webmd.com...

edit on 24-9-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

I saw Dr. Levatino give a talk and describe saline abortion as well. In addition to be incrediblily painful for the baby, (burns their skin) there is also a risk that the baby will not be dead on arrival. It is dangerous for the mother as well. This short article discusses the procedure and dangers. It is banned in other countries.

Saline abortions are cruel and dangerous



Not to be gruesome, but doctors don't like lawsuits. Back in the late 1970's an Illnois doctor was tried with murder for strangling to death a child of a saline abortion who was born alive. I do believe he got off. If memory serves me correctly he did so in the presence of the mother.

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady


There is a difference between Instillation and induction abortion. Instillation abortions, that you're referring to, are rarely done any more, less than 0.001%.

Authorities have suggested use of a combination of hyperosmolar urea and low-dose prostaglandin F2 alpha as a second-trimester intra-amniotic abortifacient to avoid the disadvantages of hypertonic saline solution. To examine the safety and efficacy of urea-prostaglandin compared with the instillation of saline solution, we analyzed data from a prospective multicenter study conducted in the United States between 1975 and 1978. Both agents were highly effective in producing an abortion. However, urea-prostaglandin had a significantly lower rate of serious complications when compared with saline solution (1.03 versus 2.18 per 100 abortions; p less than 0.001). Urea-prostaglandin also had a significantly shorter induction-to-abortion time (14.2 versus 25.6 hours; p less than 0.001). Urea-prostaglandin, therefore, appears to be superior to hypertonic saline solution as an abortifacient.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

windword
reply to post by charles1952

 

Charles,

The pro-life community is fond of evoking emotional responses and trying to shock and revolt it's targeted audience. They aren't past exaggeration and even lying, as is the case with this doctor.

First, he claims that this type of abortion, of a 24 week fetus is all in a day's work. He claims that ripping a living fetus apart, limb to limb is excruciatingly painful for the fetus. Lies!

. The tissues of the dead fetus will soften, making dismemberment easier.

en.wikipedia.org...

The fetus is already dead, so there IS NO PAIN. Why did he lie?

Secondly, these kinds of abortion are not usually done as late as he is explaining.

The standard D&E procedure is difficult after 20 weeks gestational age

A late-term abortion often refers to an induced abortion procedure that occurs after the 20th week of gestation.

en.wikipedia.org...

Why lie?

edit on 24-9-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

Personally I stopped using Wikipedia. IMHO they are a propaganda tool. Of the 6 reference only 2 are still active working links and there was no mention of this to be found: "Fetus termination is performed prior to the surgical procedure via an injection to stop the heartbeat." I guess the other doctors who testified were liars as well????