I Finally Understand Why Abortion Can't Be Discussed Logically.

reply to post by Murgatroid


I wonder what Jesus says about all the children who murdered by God?

reply to post by kaylaluv

I wonder what Jesus says about all the children who murdered by God?

God KNOWS the future.

Babies ALWAYS go to Heaven but VERY few adults make it.

Start looking BEYOND what your eyes can see instead of seeing only from a human standpoint.

reply to post by Murgatroid


If that's the case, then abortion must be a very good and merciful thing to do!

windword
reply to post by Murgatroid

 

If that's the case, then abortion must be a very good and merciful thing to do!

edit on 22-9-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

Please think about the soul of the one who gets an abortion. I do believe most women greatly regret having abortions and have remorse and guilt.

As one ATS member stated on another post. He and his girlfriend had gone through with an abortion and it leaves a hole inside you.

sad_eyed_lady

windword
reply to post by Murgatroid

 

If that's the case, then abortion must be a very good and merciful thing to do!

edit on 22-9-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

Please think about the soul of the one who gets an abortion. I do believe most women greatly regret having abortions and have remorse and guilt.

As one ATS member stated on another post. He and his girlfriend had gone through with an abortion and it leaves a hole inside you.

How can you say "most women greatly regret having abortions and have remorse and guilt?"

It is a personal 'choice' that they make, and being a personal choice and matter they

are hardly going to go around broadcasting it! You may know some women - but not most

women. To consider anyone's soul - You first have to have a belief?


I was reading an article the other day which was trying to break down what 'type' of woman had

an abortion - the figures showed a very low catholic up take, to which the author of said article

wrote "The possibility of that being, as it was against the belief of the catholic church the

probability was that there was as many catholic women who had it done 'discretely', and

then carried on as normal ..."

reply to post by eletheia


Right! Women don't go around talking about their abortions. Fairly recently, a member posted a thread asking women to tell their abortions stories. As soon as they did, and explained why it was the best choice for them, the thread author began attacking them. HAHA! He was banned by page 2! But that's what happens when women come forward with their personal stories, they're attacked and called a murderer, slut, animal, psychopath, etc.

Ok, but you still posted your views on abortion
If you don't agree with abortion, don't ever get one. Simple as that.

You understand nothing at all.

violet
Ok, but you still posted your views on abortion
If you don't agree with abortion, don't ever get one. Simple as that.

You understand nothing at all.

edit on 22-9-2013 by violet because: (no reason given)

That's very profound :-

"If you don't agree with abortion, don't ever get one." I should think that was a given!?


However everyone is entitled to a view point whether they have had an abortion or not!!

Murgatroid
reply to post by kaylaluv

 

I wonder what Jesus says about all the children who murdered by God?

God KNOWS the future.

Babies ALWAYS go to Heaven but VERY few adults make it.

Start looking BEYOND what your eyes can see instead of seeing only from a human standpoint.

Sounds good to me. How about I tell all the anti-choice people that regarding abortion, you should look BEYOND what your eyes can see instead of seeing only from a human standpoint?

reply to post by eletheia


Regarding your quote: ""The possibility of that being, as it was against the belief of the catholic church the probability was that there was as many catholic women who had it done 'discretely', and then carried on as normal ..."

It is undeniable that many Catholic women have abortions. No one can say otherwise. I do take issue with the "carried on as normal" statement. What exactly does carried on as normal mean to someone who was raised to believe that taking any human life is wrong? Either they choose to deny the wrongness and deny a major tenant of their faith or felt they had no choice. I have heard many priests comment that they have had women come to them after their abortion with a deep sadness and guilt that they silently carried for many years.

I am sure that rationalization allows many to feel ok about their decision to abort. As for those who say they are a Catholic and support abortion it is very hypocrticial (think Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden). You cannot truly be a Catholic if you are Pro-Choice. I guess you could call yourself a non-practicing Catholic.



Pope Francis Tells Catholic Doctors They Should Refuse To Perform Abortions, “Every Child That Isn’t Born, But Is Unjustly Condemned To Be Aborted Has The Face of Jesus Christ”…

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady


It makes one wonder "Do Catholic women feel more guilt than non-Catholic women after an abortion?" Is their guilt due to their religious programming or their true conscience?

You cannot truly be a Catholic if you are Pro-Choice.

Then most Catholic women are not truly Catholic. Statistic show that a crazy high percent of Catholic women of child bearing age use birth control. If they are using "The Pill" "Norplant", "Depo-Prevera", "The IUD" "RU-486" or the "Morning After Pill", then these women are pro-choice, because they all are Abortifacients.
www.ewtn.com...
www.abortionno.org...

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady



That was not my quote, it was from the article I read.

It's surprising how easy some people find it to rationalise their opinions on contraption and

abortion ... I've even had it said to me by a 'catholic woman' (with a straight face ) that

she is on the pill, not for contraceptive purposes, but for headaches and to regulate her

cycle .. LOL

Your taking issue with the "carried on as normal" statement, doesn't alter the fact that for

some life did go on a usual, and many do chose to deny what you refer to as

'wrongness.' In the end it is their personal decision and them that have to reconcile

it with their personal faiths.

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady

As for those who say they are a Catholic and support abortion it is very hypocrticial (think Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden).

Catholics for Choice

Formed in 1973 as Catholics for a Free Choice, CFC states that its mission is "to serve as a voice for Catholics who believe that the Catholic tradition supports a woman's moral and legal right to follow her conscience in matters of sexuality and reproductive health."

Also,

The Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR) is a canonically approved membership organization which serves as a support system and voice for nuns and sisters (Catholic women religious) in the United States.

The LCWR takes a pro-choice stance on women's reproductive rights, despite the Vatican's displeasure.

It's a myth that most women feel sadness or guilt after an abortion.
Its not a decision that is taken lightly. If the woman has doubts and fears she will live to regret it, she will usually just change her mind about it and not go through with it.

If she decides to go through with it, its her decision. Her rights.
MYOB

50 million abortions since 1973

With those numbers, Everyone's opinion is important.

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady


Then they didn't think it through properly, or received no counselling about it.
There are some who regret it of course, but don't you say many do. That is not true.

A child should be wanted, loved and nourished. Not brought into the world with resentments, or the inability to care for it properly. Adoption will be the response, but again you are labelling the child unwanted by its mother. How horrible to live your life knowing that, or to find out at some other point you were tossed aside, discarded. Again though, if that's the decision the mother feels is the best choice its up to her.

Try to think about the child once it is born instead. Perhaps these selfish murdering mothers were doing what they felt was best in the long run. That's what counts here, but that is just my personal opinion on the matter.

reply to post by eletheia


I am aware that was not your quote. Sorry about the confusion. My brain is a bit slow today.
Everything we do in life is our decision unless it was forced upon us by someone else.

Everyone has values and the responsibility for clarifying one's values lies ultimately in the individual. Granted parents, siblings, teachers, religious formation, friends and the media provide input for consideration. If one feels guilt that is their conscience.

If a society had no value system it would be chaotic helter-skelter. No need for laws - there would be no crimes. Maybe we should appreciate those who influence our values postively either through their actions or their words. Some people are not blessed with good parents. For example what kind of father says let's go pop some people tonight for fun? The children pay a high price for that as they will have to accept the responsiblities for his actions as an adult.

Have you really given much thought to what is important to you and clarified your own values or have you just rolled with the flow like herded cattle? That was a general question not directed at anyone specifically.

You can play the blame game all you want, but in the end it is your heart that leads you to feel the way you do. Guilt comes from feeling you did something you wished you hadn't done or perhaps wished you had done, but didn't. Blame the media, teachers, parents, your faith instruction, whatever. Blame the guy that dropped you like a hot potato when you got pregnant. Does blame make you feel any better or less responsible? I don't know. In the long run, I think not.

reply to post by violet

Dear violet,

A child should be wanted, loved and nourished. Not brought into the world with resentments, or the inability to care for it properly.

Thank you for making the point simply and clearly. It is, I believe, impossible in the real world and drastically immoral, but I appreciate your brevity.

Consider first the world as we know it. Aborting children who can't be cared for properly would pretty much end births in large parts of Africa and Asia. Only government officials could have children in places like North Korea, and Somalia.

Even in Western countries, a woman at some point in her pregnancy will say "Kids are expensive these days. We might have to give up our annual trip to Europe." Granted that's an extreme example, but almost by definition, a mother or couple will have to give up something for the benefit of the child. And here we start edging into the immorality of your suggestion.

As we've seen throughout this thread, and as seems intuitively obvious, many women say "I will not give up X, Y, or Z for the benefit of my child." We've seen it suggested in this thread that it's unfair for women to get wrinkly nipples or stretch marks, or undergo any of the experiences of pregnancy for their child. And the very idea that a woman should provide a nurturing, protecting place for her child to get a start on life has been declared slavery.

Of course it's not slavery, unless slavery means temporarily doing something you don't want to. (And if it does, we have to go back to the beginning and start over.)

The only way abortion can be accepted in a logical framework is to know that the living thing inside the mother is not a human life. Oh sure, we can claim it's not a human life by inventing new names for it, but I haven't seen a logical distinction yet which makes it subject to death.

Sure, it's inside the mother, but that's where you always find unborn babies. The argument is: "The baby's inside the mother. Something inside the mother can be killed at her discretion, therefore we can kill the baby." Notice how the second proposition is entirely unsupported? "Why can she kill it?" "Because it's inside her." "But why can she kill what's inside her?" And sooner or later the argument is seen as circular, and given up.

I think I'm going to re-title this thread. "Logical Arguments for Abortion. (Impossible Thread, Episode #1)"

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Charles,

Thanks for the thread and the stimulating conversation!

I'm looking forward to "Logical Arguments for Abortion. (Impossible Thread, Episode #2")!

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

You are a dear person. If it won't lower your standing, I'll add you as a "friend."

Actually, I was thinking of another topic for "Impossible Thread, Episode #2." How would you feel about one on Christianity, specifically Catholicism?

But if you really insist, we can take another run at abortion, but I'd need a fresh angle. Can you help? Or should I just plug along as planned.

With respect,
Charles1952