An interesting Islamic interpretation of Jesus' crucifixion.

sk0rpi0n
Its funny how Flyersfan uses Jesus saying "I AM" as proof that Jesus was God... because in the Old Testament "I AM" spoke to none other than Moses.... the same prophet that she likes to bad mouth here.

What I believe is IRRELEVANT.

The fact is that you adore Moses. The fact is that Jesus used the 'I AM' from Moses time to identify Himself as God. The fact is that the Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying .. He was claiming to be God ... so they tried to stone Him.

Your attempt to deflect by insult .. yet again ... fails.

Address the FACT that Jesus did indeed claim the God title .. that He knew that He was doing it .. that the Jews of that day knew He was doing it and tried to kill him for it.

Man up. Admit that you are wrong. Admit that Jesus did indeed claim to be God.

And then admit that the Qu'ran, which was written 600 years later, watered down Jesus to be just a prophet so as to make Islam relevant. And therefore, Muhammad LIED and purposely rewrote the death and rising of Jesus out of the Qu'ran because his invented religion of Islam couldn't handle the truth of it.

Snsoc
God, in the form of the Son, can worship and pray to Himself (as the Father) if He wants to. Who are you to say that He cannot?

There ya' go. Right to the point. Jesus did indeed say He is God .. many times. It's only denied by those who can't handle the fact that He did. And yes, God isn't limited by human notions of what He can or can't do.

Shiloh7
Someone earlier on made the point that the Bible was written some 60 odd years after Jesus's death so it was not written by any eye-witnesses.

It is eyewitness accounts of the life and death and rising of Jesus. Some of the information came directly from MARY .. Jesus mother. Some came from Peter via an interpreter. No one but Mary could have said some of the things that were in the gospels .. especially LUKE.

Who Wrote the Gospels

Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon his breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia. (Against Heresies 3:1:1)

Matthew .. written by the Apostle Matthew.
Mark ... He wrote what Peter told him.
Luke .... He wrote what Mary and Paul told him
John ... written by the Apostle John

Estimated Dates
Matthew: c. 50 to 70s
Mark: c. 50s to early 60s
Luke: c. 59 to 63,
John: c. 85 to near 100

Now subtract 33 years from those because the counting started at Jesus birth.
Matthew - finished 27 years after Jesus died
Mark - finished 17 years after Jesus died
Luke - finished 26 years after Jesus died
John - finished 52 years after Jesus died.

Compare with the Qu'ran written 600+ years after Jesus died.

reply to post by FlyersFan

you don't listen to facts when they present themselves from people

You mean I don't agree with your opinions when you present it.

The only people I'm interested in discussing Biblical matters are proper Christians, who have the integrity to at least try and defend their Bible as a whole. Not psuedo-Christians like you who pick and choose the bits that suit you, while dismissing the bits that you think are icky.

The reason being you are simply in no position to make a meaningful contribution to a theological discussion.

The fact is that you adore Moses. The fact is that Jesus used the 'I AM' from Moses time to identify Himself as God. The fact is that the Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying .. He was claiming to be God ... so they tried to stone Him.
Address the FACT that Jesus did indeed claim the God title .. that He knew that He was doing it .. that the Jews of that day knew He was doing it and tried to kill him for it.

Simply plastering buzzwords like "FACT" on your opinions on things doesn't really help your argument.

reply to post by Snsoc

If an omnipotent God wanted to manifest in three separate and distinct forms, could He not? I know there are some who say that God cannot be divided, but to say this is to limit Him, and thus, blasphemy.

Having said that, each of these forms could also be fully God. To say that it's not possible is again, blasphemy.

Thats a rather strange argument.
Would you agree that an omnipotent God can also manifest as an elephant headed man or a four armed woman? No? Why not? Wouldn't you be limiting God, and in the process guilty of blasphemy. If God can manifest in 3 distinct forms, why cant he manifest in the forms of "gods" that Hindus believe? Do you believe He cannot?

My point is that invoking Gods omnipotence and imagining God in whatever way you fancy is blasphemy. It isn't blasphemy to believe God is One as the scripture itself teaches.

sk0rpi0n
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

you don't listen to facts when they present themselves from people

You mean I don't agree with your opinions when you present it.

No. The only one posting opinions (and endless insult attempts) is you. I'm posting facts which you dodge and refuse to acknowledge.

FACT - Jesus claimed the 'I AM' title.
FACT - It was the 'I AM' title from Moses (who you just luv) time that God used.
FACT - The Jews present when He said it knew He was claiming to be God.

Those are facts. So cut the off topic insults and deflections and address the FACT that Jesus did indeed claim to be God. And address the FACT that the Qu'ran completely ignores the eyewitness accounts of the life and death and rising of Jesus. Those are FACTS. Not opinion. Address them.

sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Snsoc

 

If an omnipotent God wanted to manifest in three separate and distinct forms, could He not? I know there are some who say that God cannot be divided, but to say this is to limit Him, and thus, blasphemy.

Having said that, each of these forms could also be fully God. To say that it's not possible is again, blasphemy.

Thats a rather strange argument.
Would you agree that an omnipotent God can also manifest as an elephant headed man or a four armed woman? No? Why not? Wouldn't you be limiting God, and in the process guilty of blasphemy. If God can manifest in 3 distinct forms, why cant he manifest in the forms of "gods" that Hindus believe? Do you believe He cannot?

My point is that invoking Gods omnipotence and imagining God in whatever way you fancy is blasphemy. It isn't blasphemy to believe God is One as the scripture itself teaches.

Of course He can manifest any way he chooses. This does not mean, however that Hinduism is a valid path to Him, because it does not feature Him offering Himself to Himself for our sins. I'm not imaging God any way I want to. I just don't believe that the way that He is both one and three needs to make sense to my human mind.

God is one, indeed. And He is manifest in 3 persons. Has always been. In Genesis, He said "Let US make man in OUR image." God's Word and His Spirit are just as much Him as He is.

It's interesting that the stumbling block for Muslims about Jesus seems to be the same for the Jews. They cannot accept that God would be a man and that that man would suffer. They are waiting for the Messiah/Mahdi to be this earthly king who brings paradise on Earth.

I'm sure you've read the NT account where Jesus asked the Pharisees why they were so concerned with the Messiah being David's son. Matthew 22:

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”

“The son of David,” they replied.

43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,

44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.”’
45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” 46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

Jesus is quoting the Old Testament (Psalm 110), showing God in 2 different forms, talking to Himself. Jesus is showing that there's more to the Messiah than his earthly origins; in fact, He is divine.

reply to post by FlyersFan


If it was not Jesus on the Cross, then he wouldn't have spoken the way he did while on the Cross as it is recorded. They killed the man vessel Jesus but they couldn't kill Christ the mind of God. Even shortly after the crucifixtion Christ had appeared to Mary as the body of a gardner. And the way he spoke is the when Mary recognized the voice was that of Jesus.

If you were to kill a Police officer does it mean the police is dead? No the police is an authority given to a man just as Christ was a authority entrusted unto the man named Jesus. The body of Jesus was never found because God would not allow it, he knew that man in our small minds would worship that body and build a shrine or temple and make a God of it instead of Christ. Flesh and blood will never inherit the kingdom of God.

reply to post by FlyersFan

FACT - Jesus claimed the 'I AM' title.

FACT - The Jews present when He said it knew He was claiming to be God.

The actual exchange between Jews and Jesus he said "I am", had to do with Jesus' age in comparison to Abraham. It wasn't Jesus proclaiming that he was God

Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
-John 8:56-59

The Jews were annoyed with Jesus' claim that he existed before Abraham... not because he was claiming to be God. Jesus insisting he was older than Abraham only triggered their violent reaction. He wouldn't have lasted five minutes after that had he really claimed he was God. But keep telling yourself that his mention of "I am" meant he was God.

I'm posting facts

I'm going to have to repeat myself here, one last time....

Simply plastering buzzwords like "FACT" on your personalized interpretation of the Bible that you have tailor made for yourself doesn't help your argument.

reply to post by Snsoc

Of course He can manifest any way he chooses. This does not mean, however that Hinduism is a valid path to Him, because it does not feature Him offering Himself to Himself for our sins.

Well, your argument is that Christianity is valid because of a certain doctrine that is unique to Christianity.
A Hindu could just as well say that other religions aren't valid paths, because they don't have a doctrine that is unique to hinduism. It is simply not an objective method of analysis.

I just don't believe that the way that He is both one and three needs to make sense to my human mind.

I'm not saying something makes sense because I believe it makes sense. If we were to use the Bible as a yardstick, we see that the both one and three theology can be easily refuted by the Bible itself. There are tons of reference where God Himself declares that He is One and there is none like unto Him.

It's interesting that the stumbling block for Muslims about Jesus seems to be the same for the Jews. They cannot accept that God would be a man and that that man would suffer. They are waiting for the Messiah/Mahdi to be this earthly king who brings paradise on Earth.

Jesus is the Messiah in Islam.
Islam holds that he will rule as an earthly king and that he will also be part of the hereafter like any other human. The Israelites who originally had the concept of "Messiah" defined him as being a normal human. Its quite cheeky of Christianity to suggest that they had the Israelites had it wrong for 2000 years and that the Christian idea of Messiah being God is correct.

Jews had the correct definition, but missed the true Messiah.
Christians follow the right person as Messiah, but have distorted the meaning of "Messiah".
Islam's gets BOTH the definition and the identity of the Messiah correct.

44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies
under your feet.”’

Jesus is quoting the Old Testament (Psalm 110), showing God in 2 different forms, talking to Himself.

It isn't showing "God in 2 different forms, talking to Himself."
"Lord" means both God, who is the Lord of all.... and it can also mean a human figure of authority... as shown in the parable of the servants.

Verse 44 means the Lord (God) said to my Lord (master).

The Psalms have already established that God is one...

To you alone, O Lord, to you alone, and not to us, must glory be given
- Psalms 115:1

... not to mention that the Bible has already established the theme of One God.

sk0rpi0n
The actual exchange between Jews and Jesus he said "I am", had to do with Jesus' age in comparison to Abraham. It wasn't Jesus proclaiming that he was God

Expand your mind a bit ...

Jesus claimed the title I Am and the Jews knew He was claiming to be God. That's why they tried to kill him.

And yes, Jesus did indeed claim to exist before Abraham. Because He was claiming to be God and God existed before Abraham. ONLY GOD could claim that. ONLY GOD could exist in a pre-incarnate state.

So you confirm with your own words that Jesus was claiming to be God.

And He backed up His claim with miracles and rising from the dead.

Now that we have confirmed that Jesus claimed to be God ...
Now that we have confirmed that the gospels are eyewitness accounts ..
Now that we have confirmed that the Qu'ran was invented 600 years later ...
Wanna' talk about how the Islamic version of the crucifixion is irrelevant now?

sk0rpi0n
Islam's gets BOTH the definition and the identity of the Messiah correct.

ha ha ha .... says you. 5 billion people on the planet disagree with that opinion.
Disagree with it based on scripture and common sense.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


A theory that has always fascinated me is, "What if Jesus really never died? What if he was only pronounced dead?" It happens all the time, even today. So what if they were wrong when they first declared him dead and he was still alive?

Kinda throws a whole new light on the story of the resurrection.

sk0rpi0n
It isn't showing "God in 2 different forms, talking to Himself."

Again .. Already addressed this ..

1 - Does't change the fact that Jesus did indeed claim, many times, to be God come down from heaven.
2 - Having a God the Father doesn't take away from Jesus being God the Son.
3 - God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit ... each God ... each recognizing that the other is also God.
4 - Being both God and Man, Jesus would call God the Father ... God. Other times He said that He and the Father were One. Hypostatic union. So it makes sense that he would say it both ways ... that He is One with God and then He says to pray to God.

Jesus Himself said He came down from heaven. John 6:51:"I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;"

Jews believe God alone gives life - Jesus Himself said He is life - John 11:25: Jesus said to her, "I AM the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

More of Jesus Own words -
“I and the Father are one.” (John 10:30)
“…that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." (John 10:38)
“…He who has seen Me has seen the Father.” (John 14:9)

Jesus Says "I am the Good Shepherd

Jesus says in John 10:11-18 that he is the Good Shepherd. When you read this passage along with Ezekiel 34:1-16, you can see that Jesus was identifying Himself with God, who pronounced Himself Shepherd over Israel . The Jewish people, being an agrarian and shepherding society, knew and dearly loved this section of the Old Testament because God was using a metaphor they lived every day. So when Jesus said, "I am the Good Shepherd," and that whole John passage so clearly parallels the Ezekiel passage, there was no doubt that He was claiming to be God.

John 16:28. "I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father." What Christ is saying here is that he existed along with the Father before being born. He "entered the world" by wrapping Himself in human flesh and being born as a baby. He grew up, fulfilled His mission/ministry, was crucified and raised from the dead (all part of the "mission") and then left the world to go back to the Father in heaven, where He is now seated at the right hand of God (the place of honor). He is the only person who ever existed before conception. That Christ was in a "pre-incarnate state" means that He is God.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Jesus claimed the title I Am and the Jews knew He was claiming to be God. That's why they tried to kill him.

Read John 8:56-59 again. Jesus said "I am" to insist he was before Abraham, who the Jews called as their father. This perplexed and angered the Jews who apparently didn't "expand their minds" to understand that

Jesus did indeed claim to exist before Abraham. Because He was claiming to be God and God existed before Abraham. ONLY GOD could claim that.

If Jesus was claiming he was God, then he would have said "I am your God"... instead of acknowledging that he was honored by the One the Jews called God. (John 8:54)
Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God

Neither did Jesus claim to be God or did the Jews think he was claiming to be God... because both knew the Israelite religion simply did not have the concept of man being God or vice versa ( like hinduism or the Greek religion).

reply to post by FlyersFan

ha ha ha .... says you. 5 billion people on the planet disagree with that opinion.

If anything at all 5 billion people disagree with the Christian ideas that Jesus is God... and died as a sin sacrifice...and that one needs to believe Jesus died for sins in order to be saved.

In your case, pretty much every other Christian disagrees with your rejection of Moses and Abraham. So you are pretty much on your own.

I, as someone who accepts the Koran as a whole.... am only interested in religious discussions with Christians who accept the Bible as a whole....not special cases who follow bits and pieces of the Bible.

reply to post by Cancerwarrior

A theory that has always fascinated me is, "What if Jesus really never died? What if he was only pronounced dead?" It happens all the time, even today.

Actually both Christianity and Islam believe that Jesus is not dead.

In the sense...
Christians believe he was killed on the cross and raised again.
Muslims believe he was never killed on the cross because God rescued him.

So what if they were wrong when they first declared him dead and he was still alive?

In that theory presented in the OP...
God took Jesus soul, causing his body to become lifeless... and this made the Jews think they killed Jesus by crucifixion. The soul was later returned to Jesus' body in the tomb, from where he was lifted up.

sk0rpi0n
Jesus said "I am" to insist he was before Abraham, who the Jews called as their father. This perplexed and angered the Jews who apparently didn't "expand their minds" to understand that

Jesus said 'I AM to insiste he was before Abraham in time ... you even said so. The Jews knew that He was claiming to be pre-incarnate and therefore God. Scripture clearly states that the Jews knew He was claiming to be God so they tried to kill him for it. That is what scripture says ... exactly. The Jews knew He was claiming to be God.

If Jesus was claiming he was God, then he would have said "I am your God"... instead of acknowledging that he was honored by the One the Jews called God. (John 8:54)

He claimed to be God over and over. He said He came down from Heaven. He said He was 'life' .. which only God can claim. He called Himself the Good Shephard .. which is the title the Jews called God in the Old Testament books. HE CLAIMED TO BE GOD.

You close your eyes to those verses and cling to others, thinking they disprove the 'claimed to be God' versus, but which really show hypostatic union.

Neither did Jesus claim to be God or did the Jews think he was claiming to be God...

Dead wrong. Scripture directly says the Jews knew He was claiming to be God so they tried to kill him for it. I have posted the exact scripture quote.

sk0rpi0n
If anything at all 5 billion people disagree with the Christian ideas that Jesus is God...

Of course. If they agreed with the 2 billion christians .. then they'd be Christian. DUH. The point is .. you claimed the one billion Muslims 'got it right' about Jesus ... and that's just silly promotion of the fiction of Islam without acknowledging the facts presented that show you to be wrong.

In your case, pretty much every other Christian disagrees with your rejection of Moses and Abraham. So you are pretty much on your own.

Wrong. I"m a New Testament Christian. There are plenty of us around. And even if I were the only New Testament Christian on the planet (which I'm obviously not), then it wouldn't matter in the least bit.

I, as someone who accepts the Koran as a whole.... am only interested in religious discussions with Christians who accept the Bible as a whole....not special cases who follow bits and pieces of the Bible.

I, as a woman who is well educated and not prone to follow the fictional rantings of a murdering thief from 1400 years ago, don't care that you are only interested in having discussions with people who accept the bible as a whole. If you can't deal with facts presented about scripture and Muhammad .. that's your problem, not mine. Don't post on a discussion board if you can't handle facts that you disagree with.


I noticed that you completely skipped over these FACTS ....
I'll repost just so you don't forget ...

Matthew .. written by the Apostle Matthew.
Mark ... He wrote what Peter told him.
Luke .... He wrote what Mary and Paul told him
John ... written by the Apostle John

Estimated Dates
Matthew: c. 50 to 70s
Mark: c. 50s to early 60s
Luke: c. 59 to 63,
John: c. 85 to near 100

Now subtract 33 years from those because the counting started at Jesus birth.
Matthew - finished 27 years after Jesus died
Mark - finished 17 years after Jesus died
Luke - finished 26 years after Jesus died
John - finished 52 years after Jesus died.

Compare with the Qu'ran written 600+ years after Jesus died.

AND YOU FAILED TO ACKNOWLEDGE THESE QUOTES FROM JESUS

Jesus Himself said He came down from heaven. John 6:51:"I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;"

Jews believe God alone gives life - Jesus Himself said He is life - John 11:25: Jesus said to her, "I AM the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

More of Jesus Own words -
“I and the Father are one.” (John 10:30)
“…that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." (John 10:38)
“…He who has seen Me has seen the Father.” (John 14:9)

Jesus Says "I am the Good Shepherd

Jesus says in John 10:11-18 that he is the Good Shepherd. When you read this passage along with Ezekiel 34:1-16, you can see that Jesus was identifying Himself with God, who pronounced Himself Shepherd over Israel .

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

God took Jesus soul, causing his body to become lifeless... and this made the Jews think they killed Jesus by crucifixion. The soul was later returned to Jesus' body in the tomb, from where he was lifted up.

Sounds more like a case of mistakenly pronounced death than God playing musical chairs with Jesus' soul. At least it sounds more realistic than with the christian or muslim versions.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Jesus said 'I AM to insiste he was before Abraham in time ... you even said so. The Jews knew that He was claiming to be pre-incarnate and therefore God.

Pre-incarnate does not mean Jesus was God. He could have well existed as a spiritual being before Abraham was born... does not mean he was God. What about Melchizedek? He is described as being without mother or father and without beginning or end. Is he a God to you as well?

You close your eyes to those verses and cling to others,

That's what you are doing. YOU are clinging on to that bit about Jesus saying "I am" while ignoring the other things Jesus said that proves he was not God.

I showed you that within the context of the argument with the Jews...Jesus mentioned that he was honored by the One the Jews called God.... It does NOT mean he was God.

He also said
“If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God.... NOT “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I am God.

Being from God is not the same as being God Himself. This isn't even a theological issue, its common sense.