An interesting Islamic interpretation of Jesus' crucifixion.

reply to post by FlyersFan

It's easily debunked. It's full of scientific and historical errors.

Well, the atheists say the same things about the Bible. But you seem to be upholding the Bible, while maintaining that Abraham and Moses weren't inspired by God.

How.... just how do you be expected to be taken seriously by Jews, Christians and Muslims?

I gave you TONS of scripture quotes that show that Jesus HIMSELF claimed to be God.

I'm sorry.... did you post a scripture where Jesus said "I am God"? No? Then stop wasting my time.

Akragon
I agree with most of what you say...

Interject some common sense and TRUTH into the organized religions and you can eliminate a lot of garbage. People cling to absurd myths and indoctrination instead of looking at what is clearly in front of them. If they would open their eyes and clear their minds ... the strangleholds would be removed and they'd evolve as humans and as spirits ...

10 Commandments - Doctrine of Men Facts are facts. Moses didn't get them from the hand of God. They were already in place.
Abraham - true prophet of God or something else? Abraham was insane. That's just the truth of it. Facts are facts.

Accept the truth ... all the truth ... even if you don't like it. It frees the mind.

So someone spitting at me and calling me names because I recognize the truth of these two situations, instead of blindly accepting myth and folklore about them, is absurd. It makes that person look small and pretty dang stupid.

Now on to the topic .... what the Qu'ran says about Jesus death vs what Christian scripture says .... The Qu'ran is obviously NOT first hand accounts and it's obviously fictional. The source for the Qu'ran is a mess whereas the sources for the Christian bible are actual eyewitness. Heck ... Jesus own mother MARY is one of the witness' quoted. And yet Muslims are so attached to Muhammad, who came 600 years later, that they run around claiming that he knows better than Mary what was going on with Jesus. It's absurd.

And scripture does indeed say that Jesus is God incarnate. It comes from Jesus Own words and actions. It comes from the writings of His followers and those who were present during His life. Muhammad had to try to kill this belief in order for his own fictional account to have any traction with the peasants of his time period. I'm not surprised that Muslims refuse to acknowledge the truth .. that scripture does indeed say Jesus is God .. that Jesus Himself does indeed claim the title. If the Muslims admit that the bible says it .. then their religion becomes irrelevant. that's frightens them.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Its cute how you present your own threads as facts.

sk0rpi0n
Well, the atheists say the same things about the Bible. But you seem to be upholding the Bible,

I uphold that which can be upheld. I debunk that which can be debunked.

How.... just how do you be expected to be taken seriously by Jews, Christians and Muslims?

I'm taken seriously by those who know how to think.
Unlike certain indoctrinated Muslims who refuse to open their eyes.
I've brought you the water. It's up to you to drink or dehydrate to death. Your choice.

I'm sorry.... did you post a scripture where Jesus said "I am God"? No? Then stop wasting my time.

Yes, I did. Obviously you didn't read. He said it IN WORDS ... 'I AM' ... and he said it in action ... and even the Jews themselves said He was claiming to be God.

You said show ONE scripture and then you can talk about Islam being irrelevant. I did much better than just one. Islam is irrelevant. The Qu'ran fiction stories of Jesus are irrelevant

sk0rpi0n
Its cute how you present your own threads as facts.

The irrefutable facts are in the threads.
It's cute how you refuse to acknowledge facts and yet cling to fictional qu'ran stories
while trying to insult those who are capable of clear thought.
Wait .. it's not cute ... it's sad.

In reference to the Opening Post .... Jesus own mother MARY is one of the witness' quoted in the bible. And yet Muslims are so attached to Muhammad, who came 600 years later, that they run around claiming that he knows better than Mary what was going on with Jesus. The bible account obviously is more reliable and more accurate than fiction made up 600+ years later. The Qu'ran story doesn't pass the B.S. test.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Yes, I did. Obviously you didn't read. He said it IN WORDS ... 'I AM' ... and he said it in action ... and even the Jews themselves said He was claiming to be God.

According to scripture, the Jews thought he was blaspheming God because they thought he was claiming to be the son of God... which is stupid, because the Jews themselves believed Israel was collectively the "firstborn" of God. (Exodus 4:22)

Even if Jesus said "I AM" (in whatever sense he meant it), it doesn't magically negate the fact that he himself worshiped God.

Why did he say "Why call me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. " .... instead of plainly stating he was God?

Why did he say the Lords prayer was directed towards the "Father in Heaven" and NOT himself?

Why did he say "Hear O Israel, your God is One".... and not mention himself as the God of Israel?

Tell me.

sk0rpi0n
According to scripture, the Jews thought he was blaspheming God because they thought he was claiming to be the son of God...

No. I gave the exact quote. They wanted to stone Him because He was claiming to be God. They said so.

Even if Jesus said "I AM" (in whatever sense he meant it),

Oh come off it. You know exactly what 'sense' he meant it. I gave the information. He claimed the title 'I AM' . All the Jews knew exactly what He was claiming because they tried to stone him .

You said to provide one scripture quote that shows Jesus claiming to be God.
There you have it. Jesus did indeed claim to be God.

it doesn't magically negate ...

You are moving the goal posts. You said 'just one' and I gave a bunch of information showing that Jesus Himself did indeed say He was God come down from heaven. A bunch. Whatever quotes you think you can come up with do not 'magically negate' the quotes I've provided that show Jesus did indeed claim to be God.

I bet you didn't even read them. Did you? Nope. Didn't think so.

Where Did Jesus Say I am God Worship Me

Surah 57:3 of the Qur’an refers to Allah as “the First and the Last, the Most High and the Most Near.” The Old Testament agrees that God is the “First and the Last,” as we read in the Book of the prophet Isaiah: Isaiah 44:6—Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.”

When “LORD” is written in all capitals in the Old Testament, the term refers to Yahweh, the creator of the universe. Since both the Bible and the Qur’an give the title “the First and the Last” to God, it should be quite shocking for Muslims to open the New Testament and read Revelation 1:17-18, where Jesus says:
“Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”

Would a mere prophet claim to be the “First and the Last”?

The Qur’an agrees that ultimate forgiveness belongs to God, for it asks, “Who can forgive sins except Allah?” (3:135).

It might surprise Muslims to learn that, in the New Testament, Jesus claims the ability to forgive sins. In Mark 2, a paralyzed man is brought to Jesus in order to be healed. Jesus’ response leads the religious leaders to accuse him of blasphemy: Mark 2:5-7—And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”

The scribes correctly recognized that only God can forgive sins. Yet Jesus (who referred to himself as the “Son of Man”), knowing their thoughts, replied that “the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” (Mark 2:10). He then healed the paralytic, proving that his claims were true.

Some mend bending for Muslims

Since the Bible obviously supports the Christian view of Jesus, Muslims who want to deny the deity of Christ will have to argue that the Gospel has been corrupted. But if the Gospel has been corrupted, why does the Qur’an command Christians to judge by the Gospel? By commanding us to judge by what we find in the Gospel, the Qur’an has inadvertently ordered Christians to reject Islam!

But it gets worse for Muslims. The Qur’an affirms the inspiration and reliability of the Christian Scriptures (3:3-4, 5:47, 5:66, 7:157, 10:94), as well as man’s inability to corrupt God’s Word (6:114-115, 18:27). Muslims therefore cannot reject what the Gospel says, which leaves them with quite a dilemma. If the Gospel is reliable, Islam must be false, since the Gospel presents Jesus as God. Alternatively, if the Gospel is unreliable, Islam must be false, because the Qur’an tells us that the Gospel is the Word of God. Either way, Islam is false, and anyone who is searching for the truth will never find it in the Qur’an.

Like I said ... the Qu'ran story of the death of Jesus ...fabrication.

filledcup
www.abovetopsecret.com...

edit on 10-9-2013 by filledcup because: (no reason given)

I see you had fun with fiction. Whatever. It doesn't change the fact that Abraham was insane. He tried to kill his kid. And Moses did not get the 10 Commandments from God. They were already widely available through history. Crack open a book and do some research ....

reply to post by FlyersFan


Good job copy pasting from an an anti-Islamic website called "answering muslims dot com".
My rebuttal to that would be a website called "answering christianity dot com".

Anyway...

If the Gospel is reliable, Islam must be false, since the Gospel presents Jesus as God.

Ok, but would you know exactly what Gospel the writer on that website is reading from?
The Bible I have by my side tells me that Jesus prayed to God and instructed others to do the same.

In fact he even referred to his God as the God of the people...

I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.
-John 20:17

Flyersfan, does John 20:17 in your Bible say something else? Could you please post it here?

reply to post by FlyersFan

I see you had fun with fiction. Whatever. It doesn't change the fact that Abraham was insane.
He tried to kill his kid. And Moses did not get the 10 Commandments from God. They were already widely available through history. Crack open a book and do some research ....

So do you believe Jesus said these words about Abraham in John 8:56 :
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

Why does it matter to Jesus what an "insane" man (according to you) thought about him?

Also do you believe that Jesus spoke positively about Moses and Abraham?

Actually, don't bother answering these questions.... as I didn't make this thread to give the likes of you a soap box to express your personal beliefs on Jesus, Moses and Abraham. Just hit the "new topic" button and rant away.

sk0rpi0n
Good job copy pasting from an an anti-Islamic website called "answering muslims dot com".

1 - it's not 'anti islamic'. It simply states truth you don't want to hear.
2 - You can't refute the facts.

The Qur’an affirms the inspiration and reliability of the Christian Scriptures (3:3-4, 5:47, 5:66, 7:157, 10:94), as well as man’s inability to corrupt God’s Word (6:114-115, 18:27). Muslims therefore cannot reject what the Gospel says, which leaves them with quite a dilemma. If the Gospel is reliable, Islam must be false, since the Gospel presents Jesus as God. Alternatively, if the Gospel is unreliable, Islam must be false, because the Qur’an tells us that the Gospel is the Word of God. Either way, Islam is false, and anyone who is searching for the truth will never find it in the Qur’an.

Refute what was said or accept it publically.

And admit that Jesus did indeed claim to be God many times. I showed them.

I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.
-John 20:17

1 - Does't change the fact that Jesus did indeed claim, many times, to be God come down from heaven.
2 - Having a God the Father doesn't take away from Jesus being God the Son.
3 - God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit ... each God ... each recognizing that the other is also God.
4 - Being both God and Man, Jesus would call God the Father ... God. Other times He said that He and the Father were One. Hypostatic union. So it makes sense that he would say it both ways ... that He is One with God and then He says to pray to God.

reply to post by FlyersFan

1 - it's not 'anti islamic'. It simply states truth you don't want to hear.

Are you willing to accept the truth about Moses and Abraham from that same site?

Or would you then dismiss that website simply because you don't want to hear the Biblical truth about Moses and Abraham? Simply because you disagree with them?

sk0rpi0n
Also do you believe that Jesus spoke positively about Moses and Abraham?

He spoke to His audience in a manner that they could handle.

I didn't make this thread to give the likes of you a soap box to express your personal beliefs on Jesus, Moses and Abraham.

"the likes of you" .. ha ha .. beyond funny. The likes of me = educated and eyes wide open.
Not blindly accepting that which is easily debunked (like the 10 commandments were NOT
written by God on a mountaintop ... easily debunked).

You still haven't acknowledged that Jesus did indeed claim to be God. Many times.
And since the Qu'ran says the bible is to be trusted ... and that the bible does indeed
say that Jesus is God ... and Jesus Himself said it ... guess that means you should be
listening to that supposed 'holy book' of yours and accept that Jesus did indeed claim
to be God ...

Acknowledge that Jesus did claim to be God.
Acknowledge that the Jews confirm that Jesus claimed to be God.
Acknowledge that Jesus followers all believed He claimed to be God.
Acknowledge that Jesus followers all believed Him to be God.

Go ahead ...

sk0rpi0n
Are you willing to accept the truth about Moses and Abraham from that same site?

What truth? Moses didn't get the 10 commandments from God. It's already proven. Abraham tried to murder his son and 'sacrifice him' to God. That's insane. That's not up for question. Truth is truth.

I quoted that site and used sources that YOU believe in.

So again ... The Qu'ran tells you to believe the gospels. The gospels say Jesus is God.
So are you going to believe that Jesus is God or are you going to disagree with the Qu'ran?
And if you disagree with the Qu'ran ... I guess that makes Islam irrelevant. Right.

STILL WAITING .. stop deflecting ... admit that Jesus did indeed claim the title of God.

reply to post by FlyersFan

The likes of me = educated and eyes wide open.

By your own standards. Have at it.

You still haven't acknowledged that Jesus did indeed claim to be God.

Thats because I haven't found a single verse in the Bible where Jesus said "I am God".

Actually.... don't. I know from years of study that such a verse doesn't exist. So beat it.

reply to post by FlyersFan

What truth? Moses didn't get the 10 commandments from God. It's already proven. Abraham tried to murder his son and 'sacrifice him' to God. That's insane. That's not up for question. Truth is truth.

But I see all those other Christians claiming that they accept Moses and Abraham as prophets.
Are you telling me they are all false Christians?