An interesting Islamic interpretation of Jesus' crucifixion.

reply to post by Snsoc

Until then, peace!

And peace be upon you too.
We can depart knowing that we will meet again in the future. God will tell us of our errors.
Amen.

reply to post by Snsoc

Jesus never uttered the words, "I am your God," but to say that this means He never wished to communicate His divinity because He didn't use those exact words is a silly semantics argument

Actually its not semantics... Its calling him a liar by omission. IF Jesus was the ONE true God he would have said "I Am God"... To his closest followers. And he didn't say I AM the I AM either... It was a reference to his preexistance... But not a declaration of himself being God.

Even if you look at the Christian view of the trinity... It is believed this trinity is three equal parts of ONE. Jesus said he was not equal to his Father... Paul made that statement... Jesus did not...

I've stayed out of this debate because it turned hostile... But Skorpion is correct.

He did not ever claim to be God... Not once

reply to post by Akragon

Actually its not semantics... Its calling him a liar by omission. IF Jesus was the ONE true God he would have said "I Am God"... To his closest followers.

Jesus being God would have been kind of a big deal. All he had to do was declare he was God. But he didn't.

Even if you look at the Christian view of the trinity... It is believed this trinity is three equal parts of ONE. Jesus said he was not equal to his Father... Paul made that statement... Jesus did not...

Christianity isn't a stand-alone religion. It is based on the Israelite religion, that was essentially monotheistic. If the trinity was a truth about God, we would have read of it in the older books, starting from Genesis.

Christianity is rooted in the Israelite religion. If the concept of the trinity were true, then the Israelites themselves would have been aware of their God being a trinity... but we know from Genesis to the Gospels that the Israelite religion always believed in God being One... not "one and three", as presented by people believing in the trinity.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Your preachin to the choir my friend...

I've been through this arguement hundreds of times... The only decent arguement for him being God is the verse from Thomas... But we can also see him letting people believe what they will on other occasions as well... PIlate asked him if he was the king of the jews... And his answer was "you say i am"

He let people believe what they needed... But there is no place in all that is written about him where he claims to be God

Thats simply because he knew better... He did however claim to be the son of God... And in judaic beliefs that is the same thing.

Any association with being divinity is blasphemy to the Jews

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I'll also add that trying to tell a Christian Jesus was not God is the same as trying to tell a muslim their prophet was the tooth fairy...

Its almost pointless

reply to post by Akragon

I've been through this arguement hundreds of times... The only decent arguement for him being God is the verse from Thomas... But we can also see him letting people believe what they will on other occasions as well... PIlate asked him if he was the king of the jews... And his answer was "you say i am"

This is where one needs to review the methodology being employed to make the case that Jesus is God.

There are some rather "iffy" verses that are parroted over and over again to make the case that Jesus is God. Very well, how does it hold up against the verses where Jesus made it absolutely clear that Jesus wasn't God, but rather that he himself worshiped God.

For example....
Why did Jesus keep referring to himself as being of God, when he could have just as well stated that he is God?

Why did Jesus pray to God during the time of his need?

Why did Jesus teach others to pray to God..... instead of him?

Why did Jesus say "Hear Israel, God is One" and refrain from claiming to be that God, or a part of it?

Why did Jesus say he could do nothing of his own... and that he does the will of God?

Of course, I expect the Christians and the pseudo-Christians to come here and insist Jesus was God while parroting certain "iffy" verses without considering the Biblical questions posted above.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Well... There are a good many verses which say he is God...

Though they were stated by his followers... Not Jesus himself

So its really a matter of who one chooses to believe... Also many Christians believe the bible is "Gods word"... Thus anything within the book is automatically true

Muslims are no different from what i've seen... But that is not the topic at hand...

Technically neither is the Jesus is/isn't God debate

sk0rpi0n
If Jesus was claiming he was God, then he would have said "I am your God"... instead of acknowledging that he was honored by the One the Jews called God. (John 8:54)

Something is seriously wrong with your reading comprehension. Jesus said BOTH. Reading scripture it is very clear that he used BOTH ... saying He was man and claiming He was God. BOTH are there.

But you don't even accept most of the Bible. Your opinions are as valid as an atheists who rejects all of the Bible.

1 - What I believe is IRRELEVANT to discussing what is in scripture. Your continued insistence of trying to interject what I believe .. and sneering at it ... is increasingly bizarre behavior. Obsessed much?
2 - I'm stating FACTS FROM SCRIPTURE.

You need to accept the entire Bible - starting from Adam - to be a Christian. You don't... so you are NOT a Christian by Biblical standards.

DEAD WRONG. There are TONS of New Testament Christians. Educate yourself. It's comical that a Muslim is trying to tell a Christian what the 'requirements' are to be Christian. Laughable.

you are clearly having difficulty comprehending the difference between being of God and being God himself.

No dude. You are clearly having difficulty comprehending ... and reading for that matter ... hypostatic union and the fact that Jesus does indeed state that he is both fully man and fully God.

sk0rpi0n
I'm guessing John 5:30 is missing in your copy of the Bible.

I"m guessing these quotes are missing in your copy of the Bible.
(What part of ... he claimed to be BOTH ... don't you get?)


Jesus Himself said He came down from heaven. John 6:51:"I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;"

Jews believe God alone gives life - Jesus Himself said He is life - John 11:25: Jesus said to her, "I AM the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

More of Jesus Own words -
“I and the Father are one.” (John 10:30)
“…that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." (John 10:38)
“…He who has seen Me has seen the Father.” (John 14:9)

Jesus Says "I am the Good Shepherd

Jesus says in John 10:11-18 that he is the Good Shepherd. When you read this passage along with Ezekiel 34:1-16, you can see that Jesus was identifying Himself with God, who pronounced Himself Shepherd over Israel .

Akragon
IF Jesus was the ONE true God he would have said "I Am God"... To his closest followers.

- The bible itself says that it doesn't contain all that Jesus said.
- He did say He was God. I gave the quotes.
- You want certain exact words ... pinning Christ down to say what you, from the year 2013, would want to hear. But he said it in the way that those of His time period would understand.

And he didn't say I AM the I AM either... It was a reference to his preexistance... But not a declaration of himself being God.

- He claimed the I AM title from Moses time.
- The people knew exactly what He was claiming .. that He was God ... and they tried to kill Him for it.
- He didn't correct them and say 'I"m talking about pre-existence'.
- And the Jews believed that only God could be in pre-existence.

And frankly ... this quote seems to fit the BUDDHIST view of Jesus being a Buddha .. a soul that has reached nirvana reincarnating and coming back to Earth for the good of everyone (not his own karma).

sk0rpi0n
If the concept of the trinity were true, then the Israelites themselves would have been aware of their God being a trinity... but we know from Genesis to the Gospels that the Israelite religion always believed in God being One... not "one and three", as presented by people believing in the trinity.

Are babies aware of the entire world around them, or are they just aware of their milk bottle and a change of diapers? When they get older, they develop and become wiser and learn about their world.

Toddlers become capable of walking.
Children become capable of running.
Adults become capable of driving.

So it is with humans and God. They aren't instantly aware of God and all He is.
He reveals Himself to them at a pace they can handle.

Besides ... Genesis is just a creation myth. There was no Garden of Eden. There was no talking snake. There was no Adam and Eve. The world isn't 6,000 years old like the bible claims it to be. SCIENCE HAS PROVEN THIS. The world is millions of years old. People have been here hundreds of thousands of years. Not just 6,000. So what is in Genesis is just an old Jewish creation myth and in no way contains any profound truths about God.

Akragon
I'll also add that trying to tell a Christian Jesus was not God is the same as trying to tell a muslim their prophet was the tooth fairy...

The bible says both. IF someone decides to believe the bible as a whole, then they have to believe that Jesus was both because both are in scripture. As for Muhammad being the tooth fairy ... that insults the tooth fairy. The tooth fairy doesn't lie and murder people like Muhammad did.

Jesus may or may not have been God incarnate ... but scripture shows that He claimed both.
If someone is going to toss around scripture quotes to try to prove Jesus was man ...
then they have to toss around the quotes showing Jesus claimed to be God.
If a person uses some to prove Jesus ... they've gotta' use all.

Akragon
many Christians believe the bible is "Gods word"... Thus anything within the book is automatically true

Not me.
And as far as I know, the Catholics believe that a lot of it is myth and allegory.
Genesis is clearly scientifically wrong.
Noahs Ark was clearly stolen from the Summerians and adapted by the Jews.
Moses leading slaves out of Egypt ... historical findings show that they weren't slaves.
The ten commandments from God? No. They were here for hundreds of years before Moses.

reply to post by FlyersFan


I really didn't want to get into this considering it isn't the thread topic... and I've tackled all of these passages so many times... but what the hell eh... im finally home from work... I got a beer

The bible itself says that it doesn't contain all that Jesus said.

True... but IF he actually claimed to be God... that wouldn't have been left out.. in fact IF he actually said I am God I would be Christian...

He DID say He was God. I gave the quotes.

he didn't... He gave allusions to his divinity, which I am not disputing... He was most definitely divine.

You want certain exact words ... pinning Christ down to say what you, from the year 2013, would want to hear. But he said it in the way that those of His time period would understand.

As I've said... that is an important piece of information that, IF said... would have changed a lot of things

- He claimed the I AM title from Moses time.

He used the term I AM, it was not a declaration of him being the one God... It was him stating that he pre-existed Abraham...

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

The spirit within him existed before Abraham incarnated... but this does not say I am God

The people knew exactly what He was claiming .. that He was God ... and they tried to kill Him for it.

They wanted to kill him for anything they could figure out... simply because they had no arguments against him... numerous times through out the gospels you'll find people trying anything to trick him, and nothing worked... so they played on the divinity thing... because as I've said previously... any association with God in Judaic beliefs is blasphemy...even to this day... they won't even type the word God

He didn't correct them and say 'I"m talking about pre-existence'.
- And the Jews believed that only God could be in pre-existence.

Technically only the orthodox Jews believed in Only one life... and he was far from a "good Jew"

And frankly ... this quote seems to fit the BUDDHIST view of Jesus being a Buddha .. a soul that has reached nirvana reincarnating and coming back to Earth for the good of everyone (not his own karma).

Well im not a Buddhist either... I only enjoy the philosophy of Buddha's teaching

The bible says both. IF someone decides to believe the bible as a whole, then they have to believe that Jesus was both because both are in scripture. As for Muhammad being the tooth fairy ... that insults the tooth fairy. The tooth fairy doesn't lie and murder people like Muhammad did.

Ahem... i'll leave that one be...

Jesus may or may not have been God incarnate ... but scripture shows that He claimed both.
If someone is going to toss around scripture quotes to try to prove Jesus was man ...
then they have to toss around the quotes showing Jesus claimed to be God.
If a person uses some ... they've gotta' use all.

I agree, and take all quotes into consideration... unfortunately the one thing that is lacking on one side of the debate is the declaration that he was God... John said it... Paul said it... Jesus did not, and in fact... he denied it on ONE passage which most Christians overlook... and I actually believe that Paul had a heavy influence on Johns writing as well

Not me.
And as far as I know, the Catholics believe that a lot of it is myth and allegory.
Genesis is clearly scientifically wrong.
Noahs Ark was clearly stolen from the Summerians and adapted by the Jews.
Moses leading slaves out of Egypt ... historical findings show that they weren't slaves.
The ten commandments from God? No. They were here for hundreds of years before Moses.

I agree... which brings me back to the point I made previously... Not everything the jews believed is what is true in reality.. their religion was a mess from the beginning. Why people tie the OT in to the NT is beyond me aside from a few prophetic statements.

reply to post by FlyersFan

I think you are confusing what sk0rp and Akragon are saying here. The argument isn't that Jesus said he was a man and also said he was God. It is that Jesus said that God is God, and he worshipped God, and you should worship God as well. Jesus also said he was less than God, also said he didn't know all that God knew, also said that his mission was given to him by God.

The problem is that traditional christians say:
God is One
God is Three
Jesus is God
The Father is God
The Holy Spirit is God
All three are God together, and also all three are God separately.

Coupled with all the statements I mentioned that Jesus made about himself, his flock, his relationship to the Father and to his God and his flock's relationship to the Father and to their God, unless you're willing to accept that Christianity is polytheism (worship of more than 1 God or acknowledgement of demigods), it just doesn't work.

Akragon
He gave allusions to his divinity, which I am not disputing... He was most definitely divine.

Yep.

He used the term I AM, it was not a declaration of him being the one God... It was him stating that he pre-existed Abraham...

If you wish to see it that way ... okay. Scripture scholars say it's both. I agree with them. But, to slip the Buddhist teaching in again, this fits the Buddhist view that He could have been a Buddha. I can see their point on this as well. He fits their description of a Buddha.

Technically only the orthodox Jews believed in Only one life... and he was far from a "good Jew"

There are a bunch of references in the bible of reincarnation - IMHO

Not everything the jews believed is what is true in reality.. their religion was a mess from the beginning.

That's for darn sure.

Why people tie the OT in to the NT is beyond me aside from a few prophetic statements.

That's why I reject the Old Testament ... most of it is borrowed myth and folk lore.
Nearly none of it can be proven as fact. And a lot has been disproven. Genesis for example.

reply to post by babloyi

The Trinity ... one God ... different aspects. Jesus is the Mercy of God aspect incarnate.
I didn't understand Christian 'Trinity' until I read the Buddhist thoughts on incarnation of 'aspects'.
That filled in the blanks. It fit.
And it explains Jesus being fully man and fully God.
And it explains Jesus claims of being in 'pre existence'.

reply to post by FlyersFan

If you wish to see it that way ... okay. Scripture scholars say it's both. I agree with them. But, to slip the Buddhist teaching in again, this fits the Buddhist view that He could have been a Buddha. I can see their point on this as well. He fits their description of a Buddha.

Yet Buddha didn't speak of God... he did say there was a higher power but didn't bother dealing with who or what it was...

There are a bunch of references in the bible of reincarnation - IMHO

Oh ya... some are blatantly obvious... Specifically Job 1

20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,

21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

There is absolutely no other way to understand this passage... Even when Jesus deals with nicodemus the man says... "how does one return to the womb"? Jesus doesn't even bother with explaining it because he clearly knew Nicodemus wouldn't understand

That's why I reject the Old Testament ... most of it is borrowed myth and folk lore.
Nearly none of it can be proven as fact. And a lot has been disproven. Genesis for example.

absolutely...

Take a good look at John 10... This is a regular argument I run into, here and in real life...

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.


Yet most people stop there as if it proves he was God... but if you keep reading he specifically denies being God... Look

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

They say..."you're making yourself God!!"

Jesus says... "I said I am the son of God"

Take note of the question mark... meaning he is questioning their claim

That is a direct denial of their claim toward him...

reply to post by FlyersFan

I didn't really address anything about him being fully man or fully anything else, I was mostly referring to Jesus talking not only about the Father, but about "GOD" as a separate, unique and different person to himself, throughout his mission on earth. So unless there are two or more Gods (i.e. polytheism), it doesn't work.

babloyi
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

I didn't really address anything about him being fully man or fully anything else, I was mostly referring to Jesus talking not only about the Father, but about "GOD" as a separate, unique and different person to himself, throughout his mission on earth. So unless there are two or more Gods (i.e. polytheism), it doesn't work.

There are many gods... but only one Father of Creation

reply to post by Akragon

I tend to take a more stringent view of what counts as a "God" than early jews, apparently. Sons of God is also pushing it a bit, considering how much the phrase confused Christians.

By the way, you missed out the beginning of the verse you quoted:

John 10
I told you, and ye do not believe; the works that I do in the name of my Father, these testify concerning me; but ye do not believe, for ye are not of my sheep, according as I said to you: My sheep my voice do hear, and I know them, and they follow me, and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish -- to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of my hand; my Father, who hath given to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck out of the hand of my Father; I and the Father are one.

Really isn't a claim to Godhood at all, simply a way of expressing himself: "My sheep can't be plucked out of my hand and they follow me, I can't be plucked out of the Father's (who is greater than all) hand, I and the Father are one.