Islam's Incorruptible Qur'an Is Corrupt

reply to post by dragonridr

Originally posted by dragonridr
Ah was that you almost admitting i was right you came so close. Seriously I could go on about angels the wife is a total fanatic about them i know way to much about them. But i do have a question for you since you seem to like responding.Something ive wondered about why does the Koran use the Bible and Torah to prove its valid. I all ways found it strange that this is the only religious text in the world that uses other religions to validate it.

Hey Dragon!
I swear, as much as it may appear like it to you sometimes, I'm really not in competition with you. You being right or wrong about something doesn't pain or give me glee. I was just pointing out that it is a lot more complicated than saying "Gabriel is the Angel of Death", considering that would be only partly one of his secondary functions (according to Christianity), and there are other Angels with that title (not just specific to Kings or any one people) far more fitting in the role (even within Christian theology). Angelic hierarchy IS definitely a deep and complex subject, as I'm sure your wife will tell you.

But I'm not so sure about Islam being the "only religion" that does what you say. The New Testament is chock-full of OT quotes, responses to prophecy and so on.

reply to post by dragonridr


It's not without precedent. Christians use what they refer to as the Old Testament (especially prophecies) as substantiating proof of the New Testament.

I believe that Muslims consider the Koran to be the culmination of Judaism, Christianity and Islam and as such consider all three as part of their heritage (albeit with severely different interpretations). I'm sure the various posters that are actually Muslims will chime in and correct me if need be.

Eric

Originally posted by EricD
reply to post by dragonridr

 

It's not without precedent. Christians use what they refer to as the Old Testament (especially prophecies) as substantiating proof of the New Testament.

I believe that Muslims consider the Koran to be the culmination of Judaism, Christianity and Islam and as such consider all three as part of their heritage (albeit with severely different interpretations). I'm sure the various posters that are actually Muslims will chime in and correct me if need be.

Eric

Well i see your point i guess i just find it strange it uses the bible to verify its claims to be the one true legion. So that means if you use logic that Islam and Christianity are the same religion we know they both refer to the god of Abraham. But then at the same time Muslims claim Christianity is corrupted which i agree with by the way. But in truth you cant have it both ways so by using the bible to verify there religion you get all the garbage that comes with it. Here is an example earlier we were discussing how humans aren't made of dust this is just wrong. But where did the Koran get it from the Bible of course.

Its all ways bugged me that Islam fights to separate themselves from Christianity or Judaism. But never realizes there is no difference. Funny thing is the harder people fight to alienate themselves the worse it gets for them. Im thinking about the United Kingdom for example. The more Muslims fight to separate themselves from British society the more that same society rises up against them. I think it has alot to do with how Islam was started it was started and grew through conflict its people were alienated including being kicked out of mecca. And Islam sees itself as having do defend itself. Which again leads to not trusting people and alienating themselves. Which again leads to society seeing them as uncooperative and counter productive then comes the fear of what are they doing. And this starts a viscous cycle allowing only extremists to prevail on both sides. I think Islam should stop trying to separate itself and it does. And show how there the same but i know it wont happen there are Muslims out there that would never allow this.

reply to post by dragonridr

i guess i just find it strange it uses the bible to verify its claims to be the one true legion.

from where you got that idea? I never heard that Islam needs the bible to verify its claims.

reply to post by Sahabi


I pity anyone into scripture as much as this. It's worse than British Law - and that's stodgy..

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by dragonridr

 

i guess i just find it strange it uses the bible to verify its claims to be the one true legion.

from where you got that idea? I never heard that Islam needs the bible to verify its claims.

Sorry you saw part of my rambling but in fact the the Koran does indeed use the bible to verify its authenticity.

Surat Al-'A`rāf - سورة الأعراف 7:157

Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful.

Which this also leads ti another problem because the Prophet Mohammad isn't actually mentioned in the Bible no reason to wasnt born yet. And as far as prophecy well he wouldnt be included.However this means the Koran is wrong but alas it cant be so instantly the Bible must be wrong and is corrupted. But yet the Koran tells us to seek the truth there. Talk about a catch 22 this really only leaves 1 option then lie and go yeah hes in there.

reply to post by ipsedixit


Hi there ipsedixit.

I am not a Buddhist, but I do count Siddharta Gautama as one of my most respected teachers and philosophers. I've learned a lot from his teachings, and they greatly helped increase my mindfulness, meditation, and peace. Unfortunately, his teachings also became corrupted with time. My favorite book on Buddhism is "Old Path White Clouds: Walking in the Footsteps of the Buddha" by Thich Naht Hanh. Very good book

It is to my analysis that Islam builds up faith in God, teaches great morals,..... and then injects those bits of negativity that are so counter to compassion, peace, understanding, and freedom. The wisdom and the "warm fuzzy feeling" of being in communion with God is what blinds some Muslims into participating in and justifying hate, violence, hostility, and religious superiority complexes.

If you only got through the first 50 pages of the Qur'an because of the totalitarian politics involved,... in addition to Buddhism, may I suggest the "Tao Te Ching", or "The Divine Pymander", or "Kybalion", or "Emerald Tablets of Hermes". I always go back to the canonical (in the bible) and non-canonical Gospels of Jesus every once in a while.

Originally posted by Sahabi

Originally posted by maes2

Originally posted by Sahabi
I renounced Islam several years ago.

I am a former Sunni Muslim who followed the As-Salaf As-Saalih madh’hab (Salafi School of Thought). The Salafi methodology believes in a strict interpretation of the Qur’an and Islam, based upon the understandings of the first three generations of Islam.

I consider you an honest person. however I doubt. sorry for my unfriendly start but let it be.

so tell us how many Shia, Sunni and Christian have you beheaded as some polytheists or infidels !

tell us how you earned money from Saudi Arabia for killing and spying against the people of middle east. for suicide bombing in the mosques of Iraq, Pakistan and ........

tell us how you transfer the western weapons into Syria.

tell us who have told you to stop physical attacks against muslims and people of middle east and start a propaganda like an apostate.

how the security organs of monarchies of middle east and CIA and MOSSAD or MI5 are connected with the Al Qaeda.

we have seen many people like you. I should have said all of these and many other things.

In all of those examples that you mentioned,.... THEIR belief in Islam caused them to justify those actions. Those actions are a very sad reality

My hands are clean of those things you mention. I did not go to a "Salafi Mosque". I was the only Salafi in the entire community. And in my entire life, I have only had 3 Salafi friends during a 1-year period. I believed in the Salaf way of understanding Islam, that's it. I wasn't a sectarianist.

However, my very deep and dedicated faith in Islam cultivated a deep sense of separation within myself towards non-muslims. The ideology of "us versus them", "us separate from them", and "Muslims elevated above non-Muslims". You know that's what it teaches in the Qur'an, you know that Muhammad's actions and words prove it. What kind of world peace can we have built upon separation, fragmentation, and superiority-complexes?

And that is why I presented this information. I now have love where I once had hate. Peace.

edit on 8/20/13 by Sahabi because: (no reason given)

thank you for your clarification.
I am amazed that how you became a muslim or you think you were a muslim while you had so much questions.
belief in God, the Last day and Prophecy of Muhammad (PBUH) is not Imitative. one should think, search to verify them and then he can become a muslim.
so I do not consider you an apostate.
this a big problem that true muslims have with those deaf and blind people. they are spreading shallow thoughts which they themselves can not rationalize them.
however not all the Salafists are radicals. but ...........
humanity is the cause of separation unless Koran believes that there has been only one religion throughout history. that is nothing but Islam. Submission to God.

Originally posted by Sonny2

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
reply to post by Sonny2

 

Nah, he is an ex muslim, probably a convert to Islam and then he learned about tahreef and now is all disillusioned.

BS, all stuff he posted can be easily debunked, he is a christian guy Im 100% sure, or maybe one of those paid israeli propaganda soldiers

Just another "my god is better than your god" post.

edit on 19-8-2013 by Sonny2 because: mastrubating

Why don't you be a nice gent and ask him, instead of coming up with your own conclusion?

I guess I'm really confused. First of all: excellent OP with lots of exhaustive research and well put together.

But why would anyone think a book written by man is incorruptible? There is tons of corruption in the Torah, New Testament, and Qur'an. These books were all written by men and I can't think of any species more corrupt than man.

reply to post by Sahabi


Wow, that sounds so much like the corruption of another's religious and moral teachings. Hmmmmm...what was his name? It's right on the tip of my tongue.

Originally posted by Sonny2

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
reply to post by Sonny2

 

lots of people freak out over the possibility.... it is only those who really look who will find the truth...

yeah, paid Israeli guy might be right!

Look at his signature, he is a buddhist

I told ya, he was never a muslim, just spread his propaganda.

He probably thinks that his stone god is better than Muhammad's

edit on 19-8-2013 by Sonny2 because: (no reason given)

AGAIN, why don't you ask him? You are really starting to look like an idiot...

reply to post by babloyi


I believe in the link I posted, that it was personal testimony that was recorded that described what he was doing when he was having revelations. All the indications were that he was having an epileptic fit.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by Sahabi

 

Hey Sahabi!

I was in the process of writing out one of my usual text-wall long posts, when through my own foolishness, the window was closed. So, you're lucky, and I'm frustrated, and I'll be brief

.

You say you were of the Salafi persuasion, which I suppose would be useful in bolstering your authority as a follower of the "truest" or "most original" form of Islam, as my Salafi acquaintances are constantly trying to convince me (though I've never spoken to a Bait al-mal before

), although that's not really a viewpoint I subscribe to. Salafist interpretation has its own little quirks and sillinesses, if you ask me. You say you were jokingly referred to as "Young Sheikh". If you don't mind me asking, what WAS the actual level you reached in your Islamic studies before abandonning the faith?
Personally, I consider myself non-denominational, although my approach to religion is usually to focus purely on the Quran and the Sahih Hadith, with occasional reference to a all-around check of post-Muhammad scholars of several sects in order to test the veracity of specific Hadith or rulings. So you see, sources are very important to me.

I bring up your background not to disparage you or anything, I am just curious then, how exactly you chose your sources. Several of them aren't universally (or even majority) accepted sources, and many of them are far out of the bounds of the timeframe of what a Salafist would consider follow-worthy, and some of them are at the level of presenting a thesis that hasn't even been reviewed. Please note, I am talking about your sources, and not your opinions.
For example, Ibn Al-Baiyi's collection of Hadith (even the version verified by ad-Dhahabi), Siyar a`lam al-nubala, Sunan al-Kubra (as opposed to the Sunan al-Sughra), Bihar al-Anwar, Al-itqan fil-ulum al-Quran, "Jawab", and the Tafsir al-Wahidi, and even Tafsir ibn Kathir (while I admit it is used by absolute beginners of Islam, I would imagine, considering the errors in it, you wouldn't need or use it), far removed from the "purist" Salafi timeframe, and well into the "Mansukh! Mansukh!" time period in medieval times that most Islamic scholars today don't agree with.

Perhaps more minor in comparison to those texts, I am curious why a person as studied as yourself would need answering-islam as a source, not only where you've explicitly provided references, but also many of your over-all arguments. Finally, in your explanation of mas'haf (I'll get to that in a bit), you provided a source that not only disagreed with the specific point you were trying to make, but also disagrees with another point (about abrogation).

Now about your claim that the Quran is only the Quran when spoken, I have to disagree, considering the Quran calls itself "The Book". It is also considered to be "the Recitation/Reading", but that just shows that either form of transmission is valid, and considered "The Quran".

Also, you mention the kufic script as a much later creation, a common argument I see in criticism of the Quran online, but it existed and was prevalent enough even to be used for the inscriptions during the building of the mosque at the Dome of the Rock!

Finally, out of curiousity, how would someone confuse the "J" with "B", "T", "N" in the original script? And how is the presence of different qiraat a sign of the corruption of the Quran?


EDIT: Turns out I wasn't so brief after all

. Just wanted to add, while you probably can't change it any more, your original post had an error where you referred to verse 92:3 as 9:3.

edit on 20-8-2013 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

Great thread so far, not full of the usual ATS vommit so I applaud everyone for being a bit more grown up about things.

To the OP, would very much welcome your response to the above post I have quoted by the member babloyi as this will dispel any doubts anyone has and at least give you and your small article some credibility.

Originally posted by dragonridr

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by dragonridr

 

i guess i just find it strange it uses the bible to verify its claims to be the one true legion.

from where you got that idea? I never heard that Islam needs the bible to verify its claims.

Sorry you saw part of my rambling but in fact the the Koran does indeed use the bible to verify its authenticity.

Surat Al-'A`rāf - سورة الأعراف 7:157

Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful.

Which this also leads ti another problem because the Prophet Mohammad isn't actually mentioned in the Bible no reason to wasnt born yet. And as far as prophecy well he wouldnt be included.However this means the Koran is wrong but alas it cant be so instantly the Bible must be wrong and is corrupted. But yet the Koran tells us to seek the truth there. Talk about a catch 22 this really only leaves 1 option then lie and go yeah hes in there.

But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me John 15:26

But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go: for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you John 16:7

And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever John 14:16

He said: “The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran(mountains around Mecca). He came with myriads(ten thousand) of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes Deuteronomy 33:2

Deuteronomy 18
(Moses says)The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.” The Lord said to me: “What they say is good. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.” You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
Al Quran an Natiq is incorruptible.

Dude .. the Quran is a mess. It's full of scientific and historical errors. It's mostly just bits and pieces of other religions (Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Paganism, and the Jewish Faith) which has been stolen and POORLY rewritten to invent Islam.

Educate yourself. Suggested reading - 'Why I am not a Muslim' by Ibn Warriq.

Scientific errors ? Education ?

says a person who believes that Jesus preformed miracles..

hypocrite

Originally posted by maes2

But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me John 15:26

But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go: for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you John 16:7

And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever John 14:16

He said: “The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran(mountains around Mecca). He came with myriads(ten thousand) of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes Deuteronomy 33:2

Hi,

I'm curious about what translations you are using. I just checked a few and it seems very clear (to me at least) that the Holy Spirit is being referenced. Are you interpreting these quotes as referring to Mohammed?

Thanks,

Eric

reply to post by Fromabove

Fromabove, TLE seizures begin in late childhood, or at most in adolescence, so again, it really doesn't fit that the first time he'd ever have them at all (along with the first time he'd suddenly begin spouting poetry, with no indication of the skill beforehand) would be in his 40s, and the severity of his seizures and his general mental and physical condition would remain stable and constant (allowing for age) up until he died in his 60s.

Originally posted by ArtooDetoo
Scientific errors ? Education ?

says a person who believes that Jesus preformed miracles..

hypocrite

Thank you for contributing to the thread in such a meaningful way.

Eric

reply to post by babloyi


This is pure speculation, but are there any accounts of Mohammed being injured or being in battles/skirmishes?

Head trauma induces epilepsy all too frequently. I know someone that happened to. It's not common, but it happens. The range of seizures can run the gamut from petite to grand mal.

Eric