Islam's Incorruptible Qur'an Is Corrupt

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
reply to post by Fromabove

 

Jesus (as) is referred to in Islam as "Kalimat Allah", or the "Word of Allah"... not the spirit of God...

If you take the fact of Jesus (as) not having a father as making him the "Son" of God then you must think Adam (as) who has no mother or father as being God himself? No....

And do you not think God can create, create being the key word, with only a word?


Adam (as) Had no mother or father

Moses (as) had both a mother and a father although he was raised by other than them

and Jesus (as) had a mother and no father....

and Muhammed (saww) was orphaned and raised by other than them....

Who is more like Moses in this picture? and Does Adam indicate that God has the ability to create with only a word spoken?

of course prophet of Islam is like Moses.
yes Jesus (PBUH) is himself from Israel and of course he has a special life.
Spirit of God is mostly used for Jesus (PBUH). true muslims are lovers of Jesus (PBUH). they are awaiting him since he is alive, but never has died.
true muslims do not ruin churches because Allah is mentioned in churches and synagogues.
however we are all spirit of God. and Adam was the spirit of God too. but this insistence is because some Christians believe that Jesus was God or son of God which Koran criticizes that.

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. -Koran 4:171

I think Kalimat Allah is mostly used for Moses (PBUH).

And [We sent] messengers about whom We have related [their stories] to you before and messengers about whom We have not related to you. And Allah spoke to Moses with [direct] speech. -Koran 4:164

Originally posted by filledcup
ive got some catching up on this thread to do.. .in the mean time.. ill drop this here for consideration:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Willtell
www.cyberistan.org...

1. In 628 AD, a delegation from St. Catherine's Monastery came to Prophet Muhammad and requested his protection. He responded by granting them a charter of rights, which I reproduce below in its entirety. St. Catherine's Monastery is located at the foot of Mt. Sinai and is the world's oldest monastery. It possess a huge collection of Christian manuscripts, second only to the Vatican, and is a world heritage site. It also boasts the oldest collection of Christian icons. It is a treasure house of Christian history that has remained safe for 1,400 years under Muslim protection.

The Promise to St. Catherine:

"This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world)."

• REGARDING: The Peace Covenant With Christians


Hello filledcup and Willtell.

This Peace Covenant 'appears' to promote inter-religious peace and tolerance. However, we should place this document in historic, chronologic context:

This Peace Covenant was agreed upon in the year 628 AD/CE.

What happens next, within the few years after, is mentioned in the op in this post:
Abrogation Regarding "No compulsion in religion"

In that post I give Islamic, academic evidence illustrating that Allah and Muhammad declared all treaties with non-Muslims null-and-void. And then after that, Allah reveals Qur'an versus to Muhammad instructing the Muslims to utterly fight and kill non-Muslims.

This is the historic, chronologic occurrence of events.

Muhammad preached peace and tolerance during the beginnings of Islam. After establishing a more numerous, battle-hardened, wealthy, and well-equipped military, Muhammad's message of peace changed into a declaration of war, forced conversion, and jizyah tax (disbeliever tax).

Check out the verses of the Qur'an revealed towards the end of Muhammad's life. They are saturated with religious war and hate towards non-Muslims.

No one shouldn't praise his idiocy and a school boy scholarship.Sahabi work is based on two fraud individual.

Gabriel Sawma
christoph luxenberg

You can find similar argument concerning Aramaic and Arabic linguistic language HERE. It's been debunked.

Funny thing is, he posted his work on conspiracy forum. Why not on Islamic Forum? He would've got sliced into pieces.

I'd suggest, Learn from the masters.

Divine Commandment to All Jews -- Believe in the Quran



Jewish Professor Admits All Prophets Were Muslim

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by andy06shake
reply to post by logical7

 

"I also wonder why it is so necessary to present your personal background with details and a lot of arabic islamic words which are clickable links too. Overkill mate!!"

His personal background adds context does it not?

If nothing more it lets us see where the OP is coming from.

edit on 19-8-2013 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)

i will not refute all that you said, just supplement it with another possibility

here

I'm replying to you in mass, however, I just got to this post. I must say; "Hahahahahaa!!!"

That guy starts off by saying that he left his country to be a missionary for Islam. That means he must have reached the age of maturity, in order to have a desire to pursue and spread religion. That means he should have a stronger accent. It means he should have a pristinely perfect pronunciation of Islamic words. This guy is a complete fraud. Not only is his pronunciation off, but his words are just wrong! Hahaha


I do not claim to be other than what I am. Look at my original posts from the years 2008-2010. I was an extremely strong defender of Islam with the full force of my knowledge. For crying out loud, my username is "Sahabi", which means "Companion/Disciple/Friend of Muhammad".

If I was never a Muslim, this is one heck of a 5-year planned hoax.

But seriously, skim through my religious posts in chronologic order from 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2011. I have been a user of ATS at a time in my life where, the whole world witnessed my progression away from religion.

Talk to you again soon. May Peace be with you.

And guess what folks! I'd bet million dollars, he's here on ATS:



Ex-Muslim: Deacon Robert Spencer

reply to post by maes2



SAlam

I think Kalimat Allah is mostly used for Moses (PBUH).

No , Kalimollah is Moses pbuh , Kalimtollah is used for Jesus pbum.

Maybe referring to that fact that he had no father.

reply to post by mideast


I think it was because Jesus (as) was created with a word.... therefore... Kalimat Allah...?

reply to post by Sahabi


True Islamic Jihad and Its Beauty..
here is the link for your thread in 2008.
Do you stand by that thread still? If you had an understanding of Qur'an and Jihad then why do you portray yourself as an almost ex-extremist?
If you knew that Qur'an only is against wrongdoers and oppressors. Why you now say that it teaches to hate and kill all non-muslims?

Also why you accepted Islam?

** As the op is a condensed, modified work of literature of my own, it may prove a bit lengthy or possibly unclear. In an effort to "get to the point", I will now post a summary. This will also serve as a rebuttal to all Muslims and Islamic Apologists who continue to adhere to the sugar-coated understanding of the Qur'an's beginnings. **



Summarized Abstract

Muhammad never wrote the Qur'an because he was illiterate. Some people did write some verses of the Qur'an in the presence of Muhammad, but no one had ever compiled the entire Qur'an into a single manuscript.

Some people argued about different recitations of the Qur'an (Ahruf) when Muhammad was still alive. Muhammad then reconciled the arguments by saying that there are seven different ahruf (variations) of the Qur'an. First conflict solved officially by Muhammad.

Muhammad dies, and Abu Bakr becomes leader of the Muslims. At the time of Muhammad's death, many sources say there were only 22 muslims who had memorized the entire Qur'an. During Abu Bakr's first year of reign as Muhammad's first successor, there were many civil war and reunification battles. A lot of people who had significant parts of the Qur'an memorized died in those battles. In fear of losing the Qur'an to war and natural death, Abu Bakr commissioned a fully compiled Qur'an manuscript. So much of the Qur'an had been lost and scattered, that there is an authentic tradition saying that only a single man remembered verses 33:23 and 9:128-129 of the Qur'an. That throws into question, "How can we know if other sentences or verses have been lost or forgotten?"

Umar becomes the next leader after Abu Bakr dies. Umar clears his conscious in a public sermon declaring that the verses of stoning were left out of the written Qur'an. But he did not change Abu Bakr's Qur'an. Some sources go on to add that Aisha and Ubay ibn Ka'b state that in addition to the stoning verse, many verses were left out of the same chapter.

Uthman becomes the next leader after Umar dies. The seven Ahruf (variations) were already reconciled by Muhammad during his life and understood by Muslims. But new arguing about new kinds of variation began to crop up. Uthman doesn't have the Abu Bakr Qur'an, because it now belongs to Umar's daughter; Hafsa. He asks to borrow it and uses it for a base-model comparison only. He does not make perfect copies of "it", he makes perfect copies of his new Qur'ans. Hafsa's is only a comparative model, obvious by Uthman's order of "Quraysh Dialect Only". Thereafter, Uthman gives Hafsa back her Qur'an in order to keep his word, and then he orders all other Qur'an writings to be destroyed and burnt, even the writings created by the scribes of Muhammad in his presence. When Hafsa died, Marwan destroyed her Qur'an. If Hafsa's Qur'an was identical to Uthman's Qur'an, there would be no fear and no need to destroy it. Common sense that it was different than Uthman's Qur'an.

While Muhammad was still alive, he said to learn the Qur'an from Ibn Mas'ud and Ubay ibn Ka'b. Both of these men had different recitations of the Qur'an than what Uthman had, and an open divergence was known amongst the muslims. The oldest known Qur'an is a manuscript of Ubay ibn Ka'b, which had been erased and written over with the Uthmani Qur'an. The Uthmani script and the Ubay script in this Sana'a manuscript is different than today's Qur'an. Not just by vowels, and not just by spelling mistakes!

There are no ancient Qur'ans that are fully complete and 100% identical word for word, letter for letter to the Qur'an we have today. There are none of Uthman's originals. All of these Qur'ans have variation, not only in vowel usage, but also in word usage, verb-tense usage, phrase usage, additions, omissions, sentence structure, verse structure, chapter structure. Variation in spellings, words, and sentence, thus, different meaning

There are some verses of the recitation which were left out of the written Qur'an. Example 1, and Examples 2 and 3.

Sunan Ibn Majah, Book of Nikah, Hadith # 1934

Narrated Aisha 'The verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the Messenger of Allah (SAWW.) expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.

"

goat 1 allah 0

reply to post by Sahabi


I suggest this for an indepth read:

The Quran. When was it compiled?

reply to post by racasan


Weak and forged ahadith are not good to use in arguments.

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
reply to post by racasan

 

Weak and forged ahadith are not good to use in arguments.

forged - oh

But I found it referenced on a number of muslim websites and one guy said that it was there and also in 4 other books

Sunan ibne Majah, Volume 2, Page 39,
Musnad Imam Ahmad, Volume 6, Page 269,
Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Page 269
and Taweel Mukhtalif al Hadees, Page 310

Originally posted by Zodin22

Dragonridr, if you could please dedicate 8 minutes to that video in which Ahmed Deedat addresses John 16:7 and give your input I would appreciate it.

As for the OP, I am still trying to absorb all the info. For now I can applaud you for the time and effort you put into your research.

edit on 21-8-2013 by Zodin22 because: Offtopic: Was a member here at ATS 7-8 years ago under a different name. Haven't been back for about 3-4 years, if anyone is questioning my new register date.

This is simple HE meaning Ahmad Deedat is speaking to a group that never read the bible and is lying to them by picking apart the bible quote so HE can insert Mohammad in the bible because
HE knows HE is lying to HIMSELF and others. First what HE isnt explaining to you is where He got the passage.It is Jesus speaking to his apostles explaining to them he is returning to his father meaning God.

Now Ahmad Deedat specifically chose this pasasge so lets examine it. To make it easier ill lable them

John 16:13
I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. "But when 1He, the Spirit of truth, comes, 2He will guide you into all the truth; for 3He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever 4He hears, 5He will speak; and 6He will disclose to you what is to come. "7He will glorify Me, for 8He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.…
John 16:14
So we have he said 8 times so in the first part tells us he is the spirit of truth Well this rules out Mohammad right away hes not spirit making this passage not about him but lets continue the second one tells us he will guide us to the truth well obviously the spirit refered to in previous sentence ok so not Referring to Mohammad Well as we continue with these hes 3 thru 8 seem to all reference back to the spirit of truth.

Now the problem Muslims have in reading the bible is the bible is a story where the Koran is a collection of truths in no particular order.When dealing with the bible being chronological in order we can see context. So lets see where John 16 :14 fit in to the narrative.

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

Well when we dont pull out one part id say its very clear whats going on Jesus is telling his disciples whats going to happen to him and them Now lets look at John 16:15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.” Well thats interesting Jesus just told his disciples that this spirit is going to be known to them meaning the disciples. So we know the spirit is going to impart information and be known to the disciples.Oh so again unless Mohammad could time travel these passages must be referring to the spirit of God or the holy ghost. Si id say we proved its not Mohammad.

So bottom line is this Koran states Mohammad is in the Bible however the Koran is wrong but it cant be because it is the word of god. But it is wrong and Ahmad Deedat for example knows it so he tries to lie to you pulling a passage where Jesus telling his disciples whats going to happen to them!!!! Do you feel lied to you should.

Originally posted by dragonridr

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
reply to post by Fromabove

 

Jesus (as) is referred to in Islam as "Kalimat Allah", or the "Word of Allah"... not the spirit of God...

If you take the fact of Jesus (as) not having a father as making him the "Son" of God then you must think Adam (as) who has no mother or father as being God himself? No....

And do you not think God can create, create being the key word, with only a word?


Adam (as) Had no mother or father

Moses (as) had both a mother and a father although he was raised by other than them

and Jesus (as) had a mother and no father....

and Muhammed (saww) was orphaned and raised by other than them....

Who is more like Moses in this picture? and Does Adam indicate that God has the ability to create with only a word spoken?

Trust me i am in no way a bible scholar but you really dont understand it do you. Ok Lets start with Jesus not having a father he did according to the bible it was God. Adam was created by God the twisted logic there makes no sense. Now to hit the core part God could have sent Jesus down created him much like adam but that destroys the reason for him being here in the first place.It was important for Jesus to be a man and be born to a woman and of the flesh. If he was not he could not be the sacrifice mankind needed to absolve us of our sins. He was sacrificed so man could enter the kingdom of heaven he was literally a key to the gates.

Here was the problem god cannot be around sin. As man we have free will and we do commit sins in fact pretty much by just being of the flesh.Well this automatically bared us from his presence. However do to the sacrifice Of Jesus he absolves those sins when jesus died a man he made it possible to leave the sins of the flesh behind and stand before god.

Now you can choose to believe Jesus wasnt god or the son of god according to the bible. Your punishment is simple eternal separation from him. Notice no fire or brimstone you simply aren't allowed in the presence of god.

edit on 8/20/13 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)

You must have me mistaken for someone else. I am a Christian, and I believe Jesus Christ to be the Son of God. God is the Father of Jesus and in Jesus is God incarnate. Jesus paid the price of sin for all who believe in Him and what He did for us on the cross. Jesus Christ to me is Lord. Now, that being said...

I was pointing out how even in the Quran Jesus is proven to be the Son of God by their own words. Except that God is not allah, who is a made up deity taken from an ancient moon-god religion. The Quran was created and adjusted to fit the needs of the leaders of their day which is why it is so contradictory. There is no way of even knowing if many parts of it were not even spoken by Muhammad as he couldn't read or write. They just put into it what they thought would serve to keep the people in line with their way of ruling.

reply to post by Sahabi

Uthman doesn't have the Abu Bakr Qur'an, because it now belongs to Umar's daughter; Hafsa. He asks to borrow it and uses it for a base-model comparison only. He does not make perfect copies of "it", he makes perfect copies of his new Qur'ans. Hafsa's is only a comparative model, obvious by Uthman's order of "Quraysh Dialect Only". Thereafter, Uthman gives Hafsa back her Qur'an in order to keep his word,

you are making an accusation on Uthman r.a. without any proof.

Maybe you should read about his character if you don't already know.

If the copy of Hafsa r.a. was destroyed by someone else at a later time, how is Uthman r.a. responsible?

There was nobody who objected to the Codex even among the enemies of Uthman who ultimately assasinated him. They accused him of many things but not of altering the Qur'an. Wouldn't that be a golden excuse to rally more people against him?

So common sense just debunks you false accusations.

reply to post by Fromabove


I know you got caught up in the posting thats all funniest part is i catch myself in an awkward position here. Im defending religion when i think religion is the problem but to show the Koran is definitely fallible i have to defend Christianity weird how that happens. See People dont realize they are being lied to this Imam he gave me the video of is lying to them to make them believe the Koran to be true. Its obvious hes lying to anyone who has actually read the bible. I have read the Koran (in fact was given a copy i had to promise to read while in Saudi as a gift) the Bible the Tripitakas and to be honest skimmed the Torah alot is review and well Hebrew doesnt translate well to English. And i even read Bhagavad Gita But this isnt really a holly book but more of a path to enlightenment and it is very hard to follow.

So when i speak of a religion i at least try to understand it funniest thing is most people want to say the other religion is wrong and never take a critical look at the one they believe. As-salamu alaykum ,

reply to post by dragonridr


According to the Bible he who is of spirit is spiritually inclined and he who is of flesh is materialistically inclined (keep this in mind).

Jesus clearly says to his Disciples that the Holy Spirit will not come if Jesus(pbuh) will not go, but if Jesus does go he will send the Holy Spirit (this much we agree).

According to the Gospel of St.Luke Chapter 1 we are told Elizabeth had the holy spirit which is long before Jesus was born. Even Zachariah and John the Baptist had the holy spirit.

So chronologically, either Jesus (pbuh) was mistaken (which I doubt), or you are mistaking the definition of spirit within the Bible as some sort of ghost or spook. It is not a ghost or spook everytime it is mentioned in the Bible.
When Jesus(pbuh) told his Desciples that he will send them the Holy Spirit, I believe (my opinion) by "you" he was implying his people or followers. Also he did not give a specific time or day for his followers to recieve the Holy Spirit after he leaves (leaving a big window for the spirit to arrive).

Nontheless, I may be wrong, however, what I find interesting is that this verse is indeed the only verse with the most masculine pronouns in the entire Bible (to me that means it is special because it is gender specific). My question to you, when referring to a spirit, would the spirit be considered a "He" a "Her" or an "It."

Also interesting is that the Holy Spirit was to give "many" (more than one or a lot of) information that Jesus had not yet given to the desciples or his people. Ahmed Deedat raised a very good point, in which he is asking anyone in the christian faith to give just ONE new piece of information that the Holy Spirit has given them since Jesus (pbuh) departure.

Oh and btw, I don't feel lied to because I don't agree with Ahmed Deedat on everything. I do think he makes a good point. What I do feel is that you keep lieing to yourself (how does that feel?).

As for the OP, I agree in a sense that today's Qur'an is not the same as the Qur'an during the time of Muhammed (pbuh). If you are wondering, im a Qur'anist and consider any hadiths as a weak source and in most cases a fabrication. I am still working on the different Qur'ans and will get back to you shortly. Please excuse my Eglish (still learning).

Originally posted by Zodin22
reply to post by dragonridr

 

According to the Bible he who is of spirit is spiritually inclined and he who is of flesh is materialistically inclined (keep this in mind).

Jesus clearly says to his Disciples that the Holy Spirit will not come if Jesus(pbuh) will not go, but if Jesus does go he will send the Holy Spirit (this much we agree).

According to the Gospel of St.Luke Chapter 1 we are told Elizabeth had the holy spirit which is long before Jesus was born. Even Zachariah and John the Baptist had the holy spirit.

So chronologically, either Jesus (pbuh) was mistaken (which I doubt), or you are mistaking the definition of spirit within the Bible as some sort of ghost or spook. It is not a ghost or spook everytime it is mentioned in the Bible.
When Jesus(pbuh) told his Desciples that he will send them the Holy Spirit, I believe (my opinion) by "you" he was implying his people or followers. Also he did not give a specific time or day for his followers to recieve the Holy Spirit after he leaves (leaving a big window for the spirit to arrive).

No you are mistaken First you dont understand what the holy spirit is im not trying to say anything negative here just for clarification you just haven't taken the time to read the bible and understand it. Look the holy spirit isnt a ghost or an entity it is god being in your heart and mind. Ill give you an example you can say something like wow that cheer leader shows real spirit.There isnt a spirit following her its she wholly believes in her team and school for example. The holly ghost works the same way you allow him to enter and you will believe god and the word of god.This is exactly what Jesus was trying to explain to them that even without me you have your faith and are armed with his words nothing more.

Nontheless, I may be wrong, however, what I find interesting is that this verse is indeed the only verse with the most masculine pronouns in the entire Bible (to me that means it is special because it is gender specific). My question to you, when referring to a spirit, would the spirit be considered a "He" a "Her" or an "It."

Jesus all ways referred to his father and the spirit of the lord as he because they are one in the same. And Jesus would never refer to his father as it.

Also interesting is that the Holy Spirit was to give "many" (more than one or a lot of) information that Jesus had not yet given to the desciples or his people. Ahmed Deedat raised a very good point, in which he is asking anyone in the christian faith to give just ONE new piece of information that the Holy Spirit has given them since Jesus (pbuh) departure.

Again he lies to you and the reason i say he lies is he shows in his sermon he understands the bible and is purposefully twisting it.The book of revelations is a great example which is supposedly written by John it is revealed to him the end of days. Thus the title revelations this all occurs after Jesus died. How did this occur the holy spirit god spoke to him.

Oh and btw, I don't feel lied to because I don't agree with Ahmed Deedat on everything. I do think he makes a good point. What I do feel is that you keep lieing to yourself (how does that feel?).

If someone is willing to lie to you why would you believe anything they say without checking yourself? I have given you the information to do so?

As for the OP, I agree in a sense that today's Qur'an is not the same as the Qur'an during the time of Muhammed (pbuh). If you are wondering, im a Qur'anist and consider any hadiths as a weak source and in most cases a fabrication. I am still working on the different Qur'ans and will get back to you shortly. Please excuse my English (still learning).

I really do commend you maybe just maybe youll realize all religions are flawed and maybe we shouldn't take them literally but instead try to see the message they convey. I really do hope this helps and maybe you learned something along the way. As-salamu alaykum

Originally posted by dragonridr
reply to post by Fromabove

 

I know you got caught up in the posting thats all funniest part is i catch myself in an awkward position here. Im defending religion when i think religion is the problem but to show the Koran is definitely fallible i have to defend Christianity weird how that happens. See People dont realize they are being lied to this Imam he gave me the video of is lying to them to make them believe the Koran to be true. Its obvious hes lying to anyone who has actually read the bible. I have read the Koran (in fact was given a copy i had to promise to read while in Saudi as a gift) the Bible the Tripitakas and to be honest skimmed the Torah alot is review and well Hebrew doesnt translate well to English. And i even read Bhagavad Gita But this isnt really a holly book but more of a path to enlightenment and it is very hard to follow.

So when i speak of a religion i at least try to understand it funniest thing is most people want to say the other religion is wrong and never take a critical look at the one they believe. As-salamu alaykum ,

edit on 8/21/13 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)

Well, I do agree with you on the point of saying that the other religion of wrong. I do believe that Islam is full of holes, flaws, falsehoods, and deception. It's a tailor made religion made to fit the times of the early rulers and so it is terribly contradictory throughout.