Calif. poitician pulls son from class over transgender law

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Lol, you mention that they should be treated equally? Well that would mean that all boys and girls should be able to choose which bathroom to piss in or which shower to shower in right? Thats equal.
No, the trans are being treated special.. They are allowing men and boys from kindergarten to high school to piss and undress around young girls and young ladies, regardless of how they feel.
And if any of them complain, theyll probably be labeled a bigot and sent to an alternative school for troubled students.
Still sound equal to you?

It's really simple. If you have girl parts you go to the girl's bathroom/locker room. If you have boy parts you go to the boy's bathroom / Locker room. Why make it complicated? These are utilities not social clubs.

Originally posted by Sharingan
reply to post by Spiramirabilis

 

Lol, you mention that they should be treated equally? Well that would mean that all boys and girls should be able to choose which bathroom to piss in or which shower to shower in right? Thats equal.
No, the trans are being treated special.. They are allowing men and boys from kindergarten to high school to piss and undress around young girls and young ladies, regardless of how they feel.
And if any of them complain, theyll probably be labeled a bigot and sent to an alternative school for troubled students.
Still sound equal to you?

You might be right - some places in Europe and Asia have unisex facilities - some college campuses here do as well. We may be heading in that direction

I know you want this to seem all dirty and everything - your wording tells me a lot

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

Is this how you really see this - it's a political thing? I guess I can see how you might get that impression - but It's not a social experiment. This isn't about choice, or trying to be outrageous, or pushing out the corners of society's envelope - or trying to force this on people in a game of one-up-manship

I'm not talking about politics but about the progressive philosophy that drives many people today. I'm talking about the people who are constantly changing things to accommodate whatever they believe is the new "social norm". These people are no better than the far right religious zealots who want to impose their morality on us all. It's all about one group in our society trying to dictate to the rest of us their version of morality. It's not enough just to live a fee life...they demand acceptance and they think they can legislate acceptance force us all to comply.

It's not being taught - it's not indoctrination. Kids are what they are - and if it's only two percent of the kids that are transgendered, so what? All kids should be treated equally. If this was your kid - do you think you might see this differently? Or, do you think this is something that is completely made up - a non-issue?

You're trying to rationalize this but you're overlooking the problem many parents have with it. I don't want my daughter showering with a guy at school. Period! No child should be put in a compromising position like this in a public school!

I'm not transgendered - this isn't my reality. So, I can't speak with any real authority when it comes to the details in all this. But you should try and realize - a boy who believes he is really a girl is not interested in flashing your daughter - this just isn't going to be the kind of problem you think it is

I don't care what intentions the boy has. I'd be happy if my daughter didn't find out what a penis looked like until she was 30 years old and married.

I'm a dad!!!

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by destination now

 

Well she's old enough to have decided upon her sexuality, and I reckon her opinion is just as valid based on her experience and knowledge of her demographic, and although she did believe she might be gay whilst she was still in school, she decided to try and fit in first and date boys etc to see if she was really sure about what she wanted and of course didn't want to be bullied by the 60% who were not gay, so she didn't come out until she left school

Really? See - I wish I'd known that before - if you'd already said that and I somehow missed it - I apologize

You know why I think this is interesting? You sorta implied how she was so over it - with the whole unique snowflake thing and all the extra stuff surrounding all this

She grew up in a time and place where she has the freedom to come out - and still be annoyed by it all :-)

See it or don't - but, wow. Just - wow

Sorry, not really understanding your point. My stance is unchanged insofar that children of school age should not have their education disrupted by the politically correct decisions made by adults that infringe on the rights of the majority to cater to the whims of a few. And yes, I do mean whims, because whilst I don't doubt that there are a few children who genuinely struggle with their own gender identity, in the current social environment, where children are actively encouraged to experiment with their sexuality and gender, yet they lack the maturity to really understand the issues, it is perhaps better that a status quo should be maintained in the school environment to ensure that ALL of the children are treated equally and are allowed to develop and mature at a pace that suits them.

This should not mean that a child can decide, for whatever reason that because they feel they relate to the opposite gender, that they should be allowed to choose which restroom they use, particularly if their peers feel uncomfortable with this and I also think that it has been demonstrated quite well on this thread that the child who chooses to do this, may in fact be leaving themselves open to abuse and bullying as a result of those choices.

Furthermore, as I and others have said, there is a trend, where children are often making decisions based on their perception of what they think they might be, rather than what they are and as such, there is a possibility that the choice they make at age 14 may not be the choice they will make at age 24 and they could be putting themselves at a serious disadvantage by having their 14 yr old perceptions being carried through to their adult lives. For example, we all make mistakes when we are younger and I don't think we should have to carry these mistakes for the rest of our lives, and if you consider that a 14 yr old girl feels she identifies more as a boy, is encouraged in the school environment to use the boys facilities, then as she develops and matures, perhaps she's a late bloomer, realises that she is in fact happy with her own gender, yet she has now got to live with the consequences of being reminded about that time she wanted to be a boy..okay I realise that is an over simplification, but whereas a girl who has these feelings at 14 but cannot act upon them in the school environment can put that all behind her if she realises her feelings were not based on a genuine gender identity issue, it will be more difficult for her to move on if she has been encouraged by the school to "live her life as a boy" in the past.

I used my daughter's experience to illustrate my point, so I'm not really sure why you seem to be deriding her opinions..that seems a bit hypocritical and I thought I had made myself clear that she struggled with her sexuality throughout her teens, but decided to fit in and date boys until she left school then she decided that she was indeed gay, but she went through a long drawn out process to get there and what she gets annoyed about is her peers who are bi one minute, straight the next, having gender issues one minute then happy to be their naturally assigned gender the next,

So I'll end with the same question as I started with..what exactly is your point?

reply to post by destination now

That post was the best one ive seen so far about whats wrong with this stupid law but its going to fall on deaf ears.
These people have lost their morals, theyve lost their values and they want everyone else in the country to lose theirs as well.
Misery loves company
With that, im wrapping this thread up, thanks for playin.

reply to post by seabag

It's all about one group in our society trying to dictate to the rest of us their version of morality. It's not enough just to live a fee life...they demand acceptance and they think they can legislate acceptance force us all to comply.

This is where we are - right here, right now

Which group is trying to dictate their version of morality? Which group thinks they can legislate acceptance and force us all to comply? For how long - an how far back in time do you want to go?

What you really want is the status quo - your way for always :-)

Nobody likes change - but social norms do change, and this is how they change - with a lot of kicking and screaming

The thing of it is - it's the kids that suffer - and for no good reason. You seem to think that these are ridiculous and arbitrary trends in thinking - fashion, opinion - change for the sake of change. That you're angry about being forced is what I see - mostly. But, what about the actual topic?

What about those kids who are forced to conform just because you don't like being told that things are going to be handled differently from what you're used to?

Interesting - really - so many people dedicated to personal freedom, rugged individuality and all that - when in fact it's just more group think. I don't see individuals that are all that interested in the individual - at all. Mostly I see rebellion against being told what to do. Well - nobody is telling you what to do - but things are still going to change

Do you not understand how this happens? How many things have changed throughout history that we take for granted now that used to be handled in a way we would consider barbaric by today's standards?

You're trying to rationalize this but you're overlooking the problem many parents have with it. I don't want my daughter showering with a guy at school. Period! No child should be put in a compromising position like this in a public school!

Compromising position? Until you understand what this is about - and I mean really understand it - not just the superficial details - you're only going to see this as being about naked boys in the girls room

What you miss completely is that it's not a boy in that girls locker room - it's a girl who was born into a boy's body. It's that simple. And - she is not there to upset your daughter in any way whatsoever - she's there to use the restroom as a girl - same as your little girl

Honestly - what exactly do you think is going to happen - for real? I promise you - we girls don't go in there expecting to either see or show off our lady bits

I don't care what intentions the boy has. I'd be happy if my daughter didn't find out what a penis looked like until she was 30 years old and married.

I'm a dad!!!

This is the only part that makes any real sense to me seabag - and I do get that. Even the most liberal, free thinking dads are still dads at the end of the day - and they are protective :-)

You have a rough road ahead of you - and I've seen a few dads get real torn up about their little girls growing up - and all that comes with that

Unless you plan on putting her under glass - she's going to do all sorts of things

Do kids still go skinny dipping? (and that would be the least of your worries - trust me)

:-)

Wow, this thread evolved with some great dialogue and discussion. Thanks Spira, destination, and seabag!

In case anyone wants to see the bill analysis, here's the link. It provides the legislative analysis.

I dunno, seabag. I raised two boys, and when the older one was seven years old, I opened the front door to find him sitting alone on the front porch staring intently at the Sears catalog open to the page for bras. (For those too young to remember a Sears catalog, the pictures had to come with some idea of how the bra would look on female breasts.) Maybe you can invent something like chastity glasses for your daughter, what with all the internet technology out there these days. A friend's cellphone could produce a picture a little more graphic than a drawing in a book. Life sure gets complicated these days. I sympathize with you.

Just wanted to add, over the years I sure have seen students experiment with both gender and sexuality. From boys wearing dresses and/or makeup for a day or a week to girls deciding to experiment by dating girls. Thinking back now, I think there were transgender students; it just wasn't obvious. From what I saw, these students had no outward appearance or actions as to the gender they were born with. They did not identify with the gender on their birth certificate.

I just want leave with these two links.
Santa Cruz transgender students happy with new public school law
Will Transgender Law Allow Students to Switch Back and Forth? Spokesmen Responds to Questions

reply to post by destination now

...children of school age should not have their education disrupted by the politically correct decisions made by adults that infringe on the rights of the majority to cater to the whims of a few....

Which is it - children having their education disrupted - or that annoying political correctness? :-)

...where children are actively encouraged to experiment with their sexuality and gender...

See - hold up - right there. That you see it as encouragement is obvious - but that's an opinion - not a fact

You said earlier that your own daughter was afraid to really come out when she was younger because of bullying. Why the bullying do you think? And - is there a way around that?

Not sure where you're located - I remember something about Scotland? Maybe I have that wrong. I can't know what things are like there for you and your daughter. This is an enormous country over here in the USA - and change doesn't happen evenly - to be sure. But I can tell you that these days, in certain areas and certain schools - it is now cool to be gay. Straight kids are friends with gay kids - they even look out and stand up for them. Gay kids do a pretty good job of standing up for their own selves now - regardless - it's all changing

Hallefreakinglujah!

If kids are encouraged to experiment - as you say - what are the real consequences of that do you think? What is the downside? If you're a real grown up - you know kids are going to have sex - so, what's the problem?

You cannot create a gay kid - they either are or they aren't

And anyway - this is about something else - this is about kids that are born spanning two genders. What about these kids? Too weird? Not possible? They should just conform - fit in 'til their older - put their identity on hold because people don't like the idea of their privates loitering in the wrong rooms?

...particularly if their peers feel uncomfortable with this and I also think that it has been demonstrated quite well on this thread that the child who chooses to do this, may in fact be leaving themselves open to abuse and bullying as a result of those choices...

Kids should be made to feel uncomfortable from time to time. Kids should be expected to think - to feel - to empathize... Because life is uncomfortable, you think they should be protected from all that? Kids need to learn to get along with and accept their peers - not shun them. You want to end bullying? This is how it's done

I used my daughter's experience to illustrate my point, so I'm not really sure why you seem to be deriding her opinions..that seems a bit hypocritical and I thought I had made myself clear that she struggled with her sexuality throughout her teens, but decided to fit in and date boys until she left school then she decided that she was indeed gay, but she went through a long drawn out process to get there and what she gets annoyed about is her peers who are bi one minute, straight the next, having gender issues one minute then happy to be their naturally assigned gender the next,

So I'll end with the same question as I started with..what exactly is your point?

You've misunderstood - big time

Your daughter struggled with her sexuality - but eventually came out. You mentioned earlier something about Freddie Mercury - and your youth - and that people were already free to come out then - and now it's all so out there, and everyone is over doing it, and your daughter is annoyed because it was rougher on her - and so much easier now that it all seems so faddish?

I don't know where to begin. Freddie Mercury (and anyone else who put their identities on the line back then) was a hero to so many. Things were not like they are now - I had friends that struggled with this - you have no idea

Your daughter is free to complain about a freedom she herself didn't fully enjoy - and she came out during a time when it was easier than it was for others in our recent past

Don't you see?

When I said wow - just wow - I wasn't criticizing your daughter - I was celebrating the fact that the times have changed - so much

This is a very good thing. Your daughter is young - and annoyed....and out

Yay!

So - who else deserves the freedom to be who and what they are - without being bulled or hidden away?

That - is my point

:-)

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Have just quickly read your post, and have a few points to make, but my daughter and I are having a family dinner (and we like to spend time talking and catching up), so don't have time tonight. However, I have also shown my daughter this thread and she is very keen to be part of the discussion, so she intends to create an account so that she can converse with you directly, which I think may be better as I don't think I'm putting her viewpoint across very well.

Will be back tomorrow to continue the discussion.

As a teacher I see a lot of bullying going on, even students as young as 7 years old will gang together against one student they don't like for some reason and start bullying/ teasing them.
Now imagine how much more bullying this law would bring to those transgender students. I personally think it's a bad idea.

If you have male parts go to the boy's room, if you have female parts go to the girl's room.

Or if they really must have this law in America/California then let those students go to a bathroom/ locker room just for them, but they still will get bullied IMO

reply to post by destination now


Nice :-)

I was actually thinking of going on hiatus - yesterday...little bit

But I'll stick around - sounds fun

laters -

I can't believe how much paranoia and baseless fear and hate there is on this subject. ATS is supposed to be a site for enlightenment, but it has been turned into a caveman convention- it's so sad.

This is pandering to around 2% of the population even if it makes the other 98% uncomfortable

What happened to acting on principle? IF this is necessary for the well-being of transgendered kids (and that's a big if), then that should be the main consideration. I don't know if I support this or not, but the knee-jerk idiocy around this is mind-boggling.

reply to post by desert


I read all your links desert - all very encouraging

And comforting - nice to see how rational things are in the real world

Sometimes

:-)

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


And I thought I was done with this thread.
I just had to say one more thing since bullying and meanness was brought up.

I swear to God, Spira, I've been a slow learner all my Life. I'm just glad, that at some point, I learn.Years ago ...haha I wish.... decades ago, I was consoling a student whose best friend had done something to disappoint her. I told her that even best friends can hurt us at times.

After class, after all students had left, a pretty little female student walked up to my desk, stared at me, and said, "You know, don't you." I was puzzled, thinking, "Know what?" Then she turned to the open doorway where, who I had assumed was her boyfriend, her friend was sitting just outside. The two had been arguing in the hallway before class. "Oh," I thought, "Oh!" (See, I finally got it.)

She then proceeded to tell me, that her mom had kicked her out of the house last night, when she told her mom that she was gay. Her dad had tried to console her by telling her that her mom's brother was gay and maybe that was why mom felt that way. After ascertaining that she was not on the streets and that she was safe and secure, all I could do was listen, as some would say, be present in the situation.

She then invited her girlfriend inside and introduced me. I lost track of her after that year. No, wait, she did drop by one time and was surprised I had kept the coffee mug she had made me in art class. It was not the best looking mug, but, hey, it was a gift. She and her girlfriend had moved away to attend college, and with a little money saved had bought a home together. At a later time, I learned that, like a lot of long term relationships/marriages, they broke up. I hope she remembered that, yes, even best friends can hurt us, but Life goes on.

I write this, because the times have changed, and I find now more acceptance from parents when their teenager comes out to them. Some time after that incident with the student, some local parents started a PFLAG group in town and spoke to whatever groups and churches would have them speak. I heard them speak at a local church; when local parents came out in public and confessed how sad, hurt and terrified they had been when confronted with their child's coming out to them but had found peace and acceptance within when the love for their child was not broken.

Maybe that's when this town became a little more tolerant. Over the intervening years, our schools also took a stand on making sure the campus was a safe and secure place for all. They got rid off those students who were habitual fighters, cracked down on fights in general, and set in place a proactive program to prevent fights in the first place.

After a local tragedy that may have involved cyber bullying, the schools once again stepped in at student insistence to have a speaker come in to address that issue with all students. On my campus, students were pretty shaken up and a lot of them started to see that being mean, not necessarily even bullying, was not a good thing. Students even went to other students and apologized for having been mean. Students saw that their meanness reflected more about them, than on the person being mean to.

Schools, and society, have to confront bullying and meanness. It can be done.

As much as I rue finding myself agreeing with ATS's resident group of ultra-right WND types, I feel that allowing students of one biological gender to change/shower in the same locker room as the opposite gender is frankly a bad idea and very wrong. A restroom, I don't necessarily see as such a big deal, as all of the 'business' happens in a stall (except urinals in the boys room), but the locker room is where it becomes, for me at least, a very tricky subject.

I was a teenager not too long ago, and I distinctly remember how awkward/uncomfortable the locker room setting was starting around the time puberty set in. To throw a member of the opposite sex into that mix is unimaginable.

At the same time, I'm disgusted but not surprised by the behaviour of some (but not all) of the posters on the 'anti' side of this issue, for example, the poster who referred to fellow human beings as 'it', and the poster who brought race into the thread, bemoaning how it's 'trendy' to date outside your own race. They could very well have been the same poster - I don't feel like going back and calling the individual(s) out personally. Again, let me say that those posters represent a tiny fraction of the aforementioned WND types. Not trying to paint everybody with that brush.

alright you'll have to forgive me if i'm doing something wrong but i've only created this account as my darling mother has told me a fair bit about this thread, has used some of my quotes, and recommended i share some of my experiences. tl;dr i'm an ats noob and well aware of it!

i'm of the lesbian persuasion and whilst i have no first-hand experience of having questions about my gender, i ran a chatroom for teens a few years ago for lgbt folks so have picked up on a lot of stories from people of my particular flavour of age and stage. i'm on the lgbt/age/gender committee at my college and try to participate in discussions about these things as often as i can.

my thoughts on trans* teens using the changing rooms at school for the gender they align with is that it shouldn't really be happening. before you flame me for that, i've got a good list of reasons for feeling like this! i do feel that children and teens should be encouraged to question everything, and of course their gender falls under 'everything'. school is a confusing time for everyone though - and i hate to generalise but if you stand out at all for any reason, you'll be subject to worse bullying. bullying can be utterly horrific - but sadly it still happens in all corners of the world at all ages, and i don't think that's going to change in the immediate future.

my mum, destination now, mentioned at one point that i'd been closeted in school because i didn't really want other kids to know about it. i wasn't 'scared' of other kids knowing - but i knew how they would treat me, and it wasn't going to be great. i was bullied quite badly at school anyway, for my somewhat loud mouth and inability to blend in (i'm probably what you would call a creative, free spirit ) - kids would follow me home, throw rocks at me, exclude me from activities, stick chewing gum to me, pull my hair, and generally just give me a bit of verbal abuse. a rumour surfaced at school that i was lesbian when i was about 14, and all hell broke loose! a few of the girls in my changing room actually asked my PE teacher if i could be removed from the class, as they were getting changed and i was suspected to be gay, and in the mind of intolerant teenagers with nothing better to do, that meant i was some kind of abhorrent creature of the night. of course their behavior was dreadful, but if you're 'different' in school, you're kind of pushed in to the school's public eye.

i don't think that a trans* teen using their identified gender's bathroom is a risk for their peers, as there's generally always cubicles in bathrooms, but showers and changing rooms are a slightly different issue - i never used the showers at school because frankly, if there's one time of your life that you're particularly paranoid about your body, it's during puberty! i think i would feel very uncomfortable showering with strangers at any given time, but i would feel particularly uncomfortable if a person evidently of the opposite sex biologically was showering with me in an area designated for people of my own sex.

"Gender is between your ears, sex is between your legs" - Chaz Bono

i have a friend who was born female, and in her teens she thought for a while that she may be trans*, so outside of school she explored it further. she elected not to explore her gender issues in school because she was already being bullied and didn't really want to make it any worse than it already was. outside of school however, she asked her friends to call her by her by a name she assigned to her male gender identity, wore male clothing, wore a binder and a packer, and lived that way for a few months. she eventually came to the conclusion that she wasn't actually trans*, but she was lesbian - and now is a very happy 19 year old cisgendered lesbian who sleeps in a lot and debates with me about what beer is best.

you'll all recall that being a teenager is a very confusing time for everyone, and often not the best of times either. most folks find that bullying played a part in their high school times - i always found that those who didn't get bullied were the bullies themselves, and bullies often say nasty things (or in recent years, leave mean comments) because of some sort of insecurity or anger of their own, which they often work out after they leave school. i'd like to think that if they turned out as pleasant, well-rounded adults, they'd maybe send you a wee apology email or something - i would certainly like a few of those!

i think as a solution for teens who are adamant in their decision to identify with a different gender than the one they were born in is to have plenty of open dialogue with their guidance teachers about their needs as a trans* pupil - and an arrangement could be drawn where they could maybe use the staff room to change for PE - which would mean the trans* pupil could get changed without bullying - and other students could change without any of these sorts of questions coming up.

reply to post by hatfulofhollow

Hi hatfulofhollow - good post - welcome to ATS

If nobody else is going to say anything - I guess I will :-)

i'm of the lesbian persuasion and whilst i have no first-hand experience of having questions about my gender, i ran a chatroom for teens a few years ago for lgbt folks so have picked up on a lot of stories from people of my particular flavour of age and stage. i'm on the lgbt/age/gender committee at my college and try to participate in discussions about these things as often as i can.

Well, that right there is more real experience on this subject than anyone else in this thread can claim. It's good you showed up

my thoughts on trans* teens using the changing rooms at school for the gender they align with is that it shouldn't really be happening. before you flame me for that, i've got a good list of reasons for feeling like this! i do feel that children and teens should be encouraged to question everything, and of course their gender falls under 'everything'. school is a confusing time for everyone though - and i hate to generalise but if you stand out at all for any reason, you'll be subject to worse bullying. bullying can be utterly horrific - but sadly it still happens in all corners of the world at all ages, and i don't think that's going to change in the immediate future.

No flaming. You make valid points. Those same points have been made in this thread - but (sometimes) in a much, much uglier fashion - and from the complete opposite point of view. I have to say, first of all, that here at ATS that's par for the course. If you've read through this thread you've figured out by now that I disagree with you - but, I'll be the first to admit - my argument leans towards the thinky and argumentative end and not so much with the practical application

In a perfect world we wouldn't have to deal with the bullying. In a perfect world - we wouldn't have to spend any time trying to convince people that this is something they should to consider in the first place. By this I mean - there are still plenty of people in this world who think being gay is a fantasy, a choice, an act - a sin. Introducing the idea of transgendered folks into the mix is, well, I'm sure you know better than I do

My first natural instinct when it comes to situations like this is to fight for the rights of the individual. Of course that looks good on paper and all that - but it doesn't really help that kid that's got to change for gym class - and I get that. I actually do...

So, how can I explain this fight for individual rights at the expense of that same individual's comfort level, or even their safety? The battle, at least in this country - starts out big - ferocious - ugly. Sometimes you've got to plant a flag before the real work of making things OK can begin. Real change begins with the challenge - but how that change happens after is more subtle - and it takes time

I have no doubt that individual schools will come up with solutions and compromises that work as best they can for everyone involved. But, before that happens, the fight to acknowledge that these kids are entitled to be who and what they are and establish that they have the same rights as other kids has to come first. The problems won't all disappear just because laws are passed and rights are established - but it will change the tone. This won't be a wild west situation anymore where anything goes, and problems are cleaned up or swept under the rug after the fact

What's so difficult about all this (at least the way I see it) is that these kids will be protected in a way that they aren't now, but at the same time, as you've pointed out, attention will also be drawn to them directly. It's not fair to put kids on the front lines of all this - I understand that

...i was bullied quite badly at school anyway, for my somewhat loud mouth and inability to blend in (i'm probably what you would call a creative, free spirit

We have the loud mouth and inability to blend in common - but I was also known as a biter and thrower of rocks. I'm a pacifist now - but it didn't come naturally

I'm so sorry you had to go through any of that...

And you are right. Being different always sets you up for something - even if it's not bullying, it's something

So, what do we do do you think? I agree (mostly) on the difference between restrooms and locker rooms - but there are still so many people who won't go for even letting them use the same restrooms. Separate facilities then? I still think that for little kids it shouldn't be an issue - but then, when they get older...how do you tell them they have to switch back? If there's a third facility - you're still going to have girls and boys in the same room - unless now we have four separate facilities...and, we'll still be drawing attention to those individual kids...

Or - there's none of this and we just tell these kids to suck it up - make believe for however many years that they are what people want them to be - and that they use the facility that's appropriate for their obvious gender. Same as now

:-)

i think as a solution for teens who are adamant in their decision to identify with a different gender than the one they were born in is to have plenty of open dialogue with their guidance teachers about their needs as a trans* pupil - and an arrangement could be drawn where they could maybe use the staff room to change for PE - which would mean the trans* pupil could get changed without bullying - and other students could change without any of these sorts of questions coming up.

This is obviously the simplest answer to the whole problem - and it would definitely work. But these kids are still going to get bullied and attitudes will never have to change

Here's what I know - this will begin with a change here and a tweak there. With time, nobody will be looking at this the same way and the problems will be a thing of the past. That might be 40 years from now and it doesn't help a single person right now. It all has to start somewhere. It's always going to be much more difficult for one generation than it is for the next, and then the next...I'm not sure there's anything that can be done about that - unfortunately

So, my approach is to use my very loud mouth to put this sort of thing directly in people's faces and make them think about it :-)

The more people think about things the more rational they become. Change doesn't happen overnight, but it does happen - eventually

ATS always benefits when someone who can both think and write shows up. This was a very good idea your mom had - don't be a stranger

Originally posted by CB328
I can't believe how much paranoia and baseless fear and hate there is on this subject. ATS is supposed to be a site for enlightenment, but it has been turned into a caveman convention- it's so sad.

This is pandering to around 2% of the population even if it makes the other 98% uncomfortable

What happened to acting on principle? IF this is necessary for the well-being of transgendered kids (and that's a big if), then that should be the main consideration. I don't know if I support this or not, but the knee-jerk idiocy around this is mind-boggling.

KISS: Keep it simple, stupid. Not that you are stupid, but you calling us all cavemen, that is wrong. Most of us with the thought that this is overreaching for a very small percentage, are probably also old enough to have a significant amount of life experiences and feel this will not really be a benefit in reality. Too many things that would make this worse for the whole school population, rather than better, including a possible transgender child.

reply to post by hatfulofhollow

for my somewhat loud mouth and inability to blend in

Wherever did you get that from Oh wait

Thank you for taking the time to join and put your thoughts into a post...gosh darnit I'm such a proud mother, When I see how well you can express your feelings, I know that at least I did something right (and you're totally awesome in so many other ways as well)

However, I think that your perspective backs up what many of us think, and you make excellent points about not standing out any more than you have to, and also about the lack of maturity of many teens to make the right choices, at what can be a crucial time of development.

Oh and welcome to ATS, you'll love it , so many people to argue (cough) err, debate with here on so many subjects