The new "Normal" in America

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by beezzer

 

Beezer I totally agree that we all have a common enemy and that becoming a single voice is the only answer that can save us. Not just Americans, but free people the world over - as what happens in the US eventually bleeds out into all western and many eastern nations.

The hang-up is that we are all, each of us, so woefully passionate about what separates us that it makes finding common ground seem so damned unlikely.

IMO putting aside personal bias for the common good is sound logic. Others see putting the common good ahead of their individuality as reprehensible and socialistic.

Finding a bridge past these difference is the challenge. How do we find a way past it?

Heff, the problem here looks to me like what either side sees as the "good" part of "the common good" is just too disparate, What I think is good for the whole is seen as reprehensible by the collectivists. What they see as best for the whole is not something I can live with.

So here we stand, glaring at one another.

The only time I've ever been able to bridge that divide was in the development of a new political theory for the US, developed between myself and an honest-to-God card carrying communist. There is a thread here about it somewhere at ATS. I can't recall the title, but it seems that it mentioned "a new political philosophy" in the title. I honestly believe it would work if we could get enough folks on board, but there will always be those who insist on being lord and master, telling strangers what they "have" to do, and there will always e those who reject any sort of master at all, and who will refuse to do what they're told....

... so here we stand, STILL glaring at one another.

Originally posted by PatrickGarrow17
reply to post by beezzer

 

I'm not nitpicking, I was the one who said it's tyranny everywhere we need to fight against. I was responding to the comment "progressives burnt it to the ground."

That is nitpicking.

Call them Lenard Filmores for all I care, call them republicans, whatever.

If they are voiding their bladders on the US Constitution then they are nothing more than targets in my scope.

And yes, I went there.

Not that I don't care, or that I've abandoned hope. I just have this "leave the sinking ship" mentality with this country. I mean if there are those who will stay to paddle out the water and patch the holes then fantastic, just I think I'll watch the repairs from afar.

There may be a sliver of hope left for this country but goodluck fixing a country that is 17 trillion in debt. In 13 years the debt has increased 11 trillion. That is something, and the funny thing is there aren't much better off nations. Wonder when it will all implode.

Originally posted by PatrickGarrow17
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Not sure it's that simple. For every tyrant in DC there is one on Wall St. How do you reign in the private sector tyrants without expanding the gov? Then how do you reign in the gov tyrants once expanding?

Agreed. From where I sit, the government tyrants are the more dangerous of the lot, but then I've never cared about money, so Wall street doesn't hold much sway over me. The government (federal) was initially set up small and constrained. Overseeing and issuing the money supply WAS, however, in their remit - before they outsourced to a private firm (Federal Reserve) to do that. Pruning them back into their boundaries would STILL allow for regulation of Wall Street. It just wouldn't allow for them to micromanage OUR (individual citizens) "pursuit of happiness" to the point where they are now telling us to be happy or else. Their original remit was basically the regulation and issue of money, regulation of interstate commerce, and to provide for the common defense. Pretty much everything else can be handled at a lower level, state or local. education, for example. Policing, for another example.

Wall Street affects Interstate Commerce. Federal problem, Federal regulation.

The problem isn't the expansion of the government or the corporation, it is the centralization of everything and the increasing opportunity for tyranny everywhere.

Also agreed. I've said many times before at ATS that the danger doesn't come from the right or the left, it comes from the center - too much centralization of power, and the consolidation of it at a point. All the wind blowing through the mid-west can be a pleasant breeze, if spread out. It becomes a dangerous force when concentrated, however. Concentrated power of any sort is dangerous - think hand grenade.

I hear a lot from conservatives on pulling back big government but nothing on pulling back the centralized private sector with a more localized consumer culture. The threat is equal if not greater from the private sector.

Both sides, not just progressives, are rank with hypocrisy and inconsistency.

I'm not hearing the same thing from conservatives. Neocons, yes, but not conservatives. Most of the conservatives I know think it's scandalous to have fiance for EVERYWHERE pretty much centralized in New Your and a couple of other financial centers. That mucks up interstate commerce when control is in another state. You may be mistaking neocons for conservatives. It's a pretty common mistake, and one neocons foster to try to subvert the conservative base. Neocons are neither new nor conservative, so it's a total misnomer.

ETA: Also curious, when in you opinion was America at it's best? the 80's?

No. 1792.

Originally posted by PatrickGarrow17
reply to post by beezzer

 

I'm not nitpicking, I was the one who said it's tyranny everywhere we need to fight against. I was responding to the comment "progressives burnt it to the ground."

That is nitpicking.

I don't know how old you are, sir, but I'm old enough that I actually watched a lot of that burning to the ground. I watched the roof collapse, and now I see Obama fiddling in the flames while the walls come down.

Originally posted by beezzer
As long as we stay divided, there will never be another revolution.

2nd.

Indeed. The New World (a positive one) must come from wisdom: abandoning our divides and coming together. Those who find the inner knowing to unmask their own self-deceptions and to see through the lies around them can reveal the divides, why they exist and how they can be removed. Such people will be the leaders of tomorrow. The tyrants will be opposed. They always are. And good people who fight against them will suffer. They always do. This has all happened before, and probably will again. History repeats itself.

One difference: this is happening on the global scale. Tomorrow may be One World, One People. The world may come together, may have to, to fight the tyranny. Dreamers always lead the way, while those who cannot dream will dictate the conformity on the enslaved. A line is being drawn, in every town, every nation, every family, every organization. Those with the knowing to look, the strength to see and the courage to share will lead us through the changes that will come. People will make a stand, and already are.

Only historians, examining the 'facts' after they've been studied, will make 'sense' of it. We will live it out on our wits, following our hearts or playing the game. To quote a favorite TV show from my youth: Life is a memory. Live the memory.

reply to post by nenothtu


I don't like it when Obama is used as a scapegoat. The problem is much larger than him, and much larger than progressive politics. If you want to talk about entitlements, then we have to acknowledge the faults of the private sector in leading to higher unemployment. The bailouts were bipartisan, the expansion of the intelligence sector was bipartisan. All of our problems are really created by the two parties in concert.

And progressives are right about a lot of things. Our economy is top heavy, poor people are at a huge disadvantage, our society could be much much better. The mistake is using the government as the vehicle toward this destination, we need progress in culture not law.


ETA:

No. 1792.

I've always dreamed of living in early America. But as a society it was far inferior to ours now. It might have been okay...for a white aristocrat.

reply to post by beezzer


The new "normal" is getting your name put on a special little list for posting opinions like that.

oops... wrong thread, sorry.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by nenothtu

 

About a week ago I was in my boss's office.

Reports, updates. . .etc.

Near the end he asked if there was anything he could do for me.

I told him I wanted a corner office with a view, a secretary to take care of my paperwork and an espresso machine in my office.

He threw a coffee cup at my head (I ducked) and then told me to "get the hell out of his office"!

Do you think the current government can help me out?

No but if you find they can... I will contribute to your delinquency and be your secretary...

...for the low low wage of only 15 dollars an hour...


I'll even bring the espresso machine!!!

reply to post by beezzer


UK is no different. It's The New World order.

It stinks! I'd rather be dead anyway than live like this. As a human I can't live like this. It is not life it is death.

The only option is to revolt against them. Even if the odds are stacked against us it is better to die a lion than live like a cowardly abused sheep.

I want a Revolution do you hear me you NWO Thugs. You will not last. Nature will not tolerate you Brutes for very long before you are smashed to pieces!

OWS is pissed off about the corporations paying off politicians to get what they want
TEA-PARTY is pissed off about politicians accepting the payoff
OWS and the TEA PARTY have more in common than one would think
the division is intentionally manufactured....why?...to keep the power of commonality from becoming a force....so....social issues are used to keep them divided. "them" versus "us" keeps the pot stirred, creates suspicion, and animosity, there is no united front.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Kali74

 

Ms. Kali, with all due respect, the petty bickering that our respective "sides" enjoy against one another has got to come to an end.

We have a common enemy, you and I.

Time to join forces and present a united front.

I think people like you and I have tried, there's several of us on here who try to talk to each other from different political standpoints and outside of moments of weakness and frustration we do okay. Personally, I know there's a few on here that though ideologically opposite of me, I genuinely like and respect. It needs to go beyond that though doesn't it?

To start healing this country it has to start going beyond liking and respecting people, we have to start agreeing and making concessions. I just don't see how, for instance if we take it down to you and me... you see laziness as one of the most major issues with our people and I see greed as one of the most major issues with our people. How do we reconcile that? They are two very different paradigms and paradigms don't change very easily if ever.

How do I concede something that is a fundamental truth to me? That a CEO of major corporation is taking home millions of dollars a year, the top execs millions per year but instead of a pay freeze, lack of bonus or pay cut they will lay off hundreds of people and then hire slave labor in China, those hundreds of people helped make that corporation a success, helped that CEO get his ridiculous income, helped the shareholders see nice dividends. How do I let go of this truth I see of these business continuously saying by action that Americans and America mean nothing to them... "Hey thanks for helping making this company great, here's your pink slip, a 12 year old in China is replacing you for $.50/hr... see ya!"

You and I may be able to discuss this but I don't think either of us could make the next step. You and I may be able to remain at impasse but others? So if you and I can't make that next step what about all the other people who viscerally despise factions different from their own?

ETA: lol, my point is already proven via a poster or 2 flipping out at flipping burgers for 15/hour, which isn't even close to a living wage. Those kinds of jobs aren't meant to provide a living, what they're good for though is supporting students as they try to get an education that puts them on a path to getting a job that pays a living wage. They're good for a second part time job, for those who can't find a living wage job.

Then of course they went down the list blaming everyone that thinks differently than they do. To them, I'm what's partly wrong with America and to me they are.

I'm almost afraid to say it...we have to re-name our America since it is no longer the country we grew up in.

Originally posted by PatrickGarrow17
reply to post by nenothtu

 

I don't like it when Obama is used as a scapegoat. The problem is much larger than him, and much larger than progressive politics. If you want to talk about entitlements, then we have to acknowledge the faults of the private sector in leading to higher unemployment. The bailouts were bipartisan, the expansion of the intelligence sector was bipartisan. All of our problems are really created by the two parties in concert.

Of course it's bigger than Obama - he's just the latest in a long line of the same. Neither Bush was any different. "Entitlements" are an illusion - no one is entitled to anything at all. Entitlement is an elitist mindset - after all, that IS where the term came from... Nobility took their Title, making them allegedly "entitled" to more than everyone else. The private sector of course had a hand in unemployment. We may differ on what that role was - or we may not - but acknowledging that doesn't absolve the guilt of the other parties, nor make any of it right. They all danced the dance, and left US to pay for the ticket.

I do, however, reject the notion of "bipartisanship". I reject the notion that there are in actuality two different parties, hence there can be no bipartisanship. Sure, they talk a different game to maintain the illusion, but where the rubber meets the road there is no substantial difference in what they throw at US when they act. Yes the bailouts started on an ostensibly "Republican" watch, and ended on an ostensibly "Democrat" watch, but they proceeded apace without interruption. Same for the Intelligence expansion, and pretty much everything else. We have to get rid of this notion that there are really two different parties where it counts - in DC - before we can start peeling back the layers of the onion... which will no doubt make us cry, but in the end lead to results if we can see through the tears to work.

And progressives are right about a lot of things. Our economy is top heavy, poor people are at a huge disadvantage, our society could be much much better. The mistake is using the government as the vehicle toward this destination, we need progress in culture not law.

Progressives are not right about much. They weren't when they were called "communists" and "socialists", and they aren't now that they've tried to soften the knife blade by rebranding themselves as "progressives" and "neocons". If they see a genuine problem, they craft a draconian "solution", and if they DON'T see a problem, they'll manufacture one to suit the agenda.

ETA:

No. 1792.

I've always dreamed of living in early America. But as a society it was far inferior to ours now. It might have been okay...for a white aristocrat.

None of my ancestors were white aristocrats, but they seemed to make do by mostly leaving the white aristocrats behind and forging their own trails, most with nothing more than what they could carry on their backs or make. Society had it's problems even then, and always will have, but the political climate allowed for solutions to many of them. As you observe above, though, a difference must be made between society and politics in order to move ahead. Whatever the problem is, people will find a way to face it, adapt, and overcome if left to their own devices, but entirely new problems arise before the old ones can be dealt with when politics passes legislation to force one particular solution on everyone via legislation. One size does not fit all.

Social problems cannot be legislated and handled via politics - only political problems can. To attempt to do so is nothing more than to attempt to legislate morality, and it always has disastrous results, as we are seeing now.

ETA: upon further reflection, one branch of my ancestry WAS composed of white aristocrats - Scottish "Lairds" from Ayrshire. Their aristocracy was stripped from them, apparently in a religious dispute with the English crown, and they were shipped to America via Northern Ireland to remove the problem. The last of them in my line to carry the name (devoid of the title) first appears in the historical record as a 14 year old boy patrolling a circuit in the backwoods of the frontier as an advanced warning scout for a string of forts. A 14 year old kid.

I'm sure there would be a law about that now, but it was the life he chose. We are no longer allowed the same degree of freedom in choosing our own paths. That is THE problem with "entitlements" - anything given to one can also be taken away therefrom, by the same agency that gave it to begin with. That is the main reason that I accept no entitlements - they are never really entitled, they are only handed out as control measures.

P.S.- Beezzer - OB can make espresso that will make your skull explode and your eyeballs melt. I endorse her bid for secretaryship - at the low, low price of just 15 bucks an hour, it's a steal!

Unity is a powerful thing...

Trying to achieve it when we have a cultural story of division would be quite revolutionary.

The big question though is; Once that is attained, what will be done then? Is there a comprehensive plan for short term as well as long term?

I tried to get threads going as an open discussion on what to actually do with the modern tools at our disposal, but I am not so sure anyone actually wants to do anything. I have seen other threads doing the same thing with about the same response. However, the threads which contain complaint after complaint go on for dozens of pages.

We are stuck in some sort of terminal loop

There is no enemy, our worst enemy is ourselves.

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by abeverage
reply to post by beezzer

 

Um what wealth was redistributed unless you mean from the poor to be poorer and the middle class disappearing wealth into the pockets of the wealthy?

I am speaking specifically about those that wish to punish success.

Frankly I am tired of the same old whine! Oh poor us, oh whoa is us. Obama did this to us! He is an evil tyrant! BLAH BLAH BLAH! When the fact of the matter is the bully pulpit has less power then they appear!

Time to start thinking of ways of resolving it stop blaming either party, CAUSE BOTH ARE AT FAULT! But if you are too blind, subservient little sheep you deserve the bed which you have made and continue to lie in...

Neither the Left nor the Right is going to bring us out of the mess both have created!

Only THE MIDDLE will find the common ground and throw out the petty dividing minor issue politics (abortion, gay rights, etc) these issues are not CORE issues to fixing this country they are dividers meant to separate any that oppose the LEFT/RIGHT agenda. They need to only be mentioned and addressed when this country has a healthy vibrant economy and structure!

GREED AND POWER are what the morons in our Nations capital crave. BOTH PARTIES desire this in accumulations of wealth and influence. And you only further the paradigm of LEFT/RIGHT march into destruction by towing the line!

If you blame Obama and center your anger toward him and the Left you are part of the agenda, if you blamed the Right for starting all of this and blocking the way of progress, please notice that bills still get passed and again you join that agenda...

We are in a web of deception and a matrix of sorts in which the very people who tow those lines are the ones that need to wake up to reality!

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by beezzer

 

Aw what's not to like about the 'fundamental' transformation of America?

For the first time in his life He's Proud of it.

edit on 2-8-2013 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

He.. that's it..lol

How about SHE? I thought Michelle was More proud ------------> for the FIRST time and all..

lol

reply to post by Revolution9


Aye! Better to die on your feet than live on your knees!

There's a place for you in my little corner of the pasture as well. It may not be much, but at least it's defensible, and people are left alone to sort out their own path... until they're not, when the invasion occurs. THEN we find out who's serious and who ain't!